Relief options - No PA line

[david.c.w]

This did not happen to me but happened to a couple friends in an official club fourball match.  This is a bracket tournament and runs all summer long, so not a one-day event.  You can see in the below picture, that the ball has come to rest on the edge of the path, resting against the grass.  In the busy growing season here in the southern US, there is no red PA line, as it is impractical to paint all hazards almost daily.  Historically it is known that the PA line is in the grass to the left of the path, and is right at, or very near, the edge of the path, which is somewhat old and has an irregular edge.  There is no written statement on the location of the PA.

 

Questions for the wealth of knowledge here:

• In the absence of an actual PA line, where is the appropriate relief?
• If there is a PA line and ball is resting up against the grass and touching the PA line AND the path, is relief allowed?  (ball touching PA is in PA, and no relief in PA).
• If the PA is painted 8" from the left edge of the path, is there an expectation to drop in the 8" between the path and the PA line?  I would assume yes, but that becomes a very narrow drop area.  

 

As a layman, it seems that the location of the PA is very important, and likely should be drawn closer to the water on the left, away from the path, providing ample relief on the sloped area, and eliminating any confusion.  

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rogolf]

If I were painting that area of the course, I would likely paint the line 3-4 inches to the left of the path.  That would allow free relief from the cart path for the ball that is shown in the photo.  If the ball was in the penalty area, the player could take lateral relief, dropping within two club-lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area.  This relief area includes the cart path.  The careful player would drop as near to the right edge of the cart path as that two club-length relief area would allow.  The dropped ball would likely roll outside the two club-lengths or nearer the hole, requiring a re-drop.  If it again rolled outside the relief area or nearer the hole, the player would then place the ball where it struck the ground (or path) on the re-drop.  If there is interference by the cart path, free relief is available, hopefully to the right of the cart path.

It's a two step procedure - penalty relief from penalty area, followed by cart path relief if the cart path interferes.

Edited July 24, 2023 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

The easiest thing would be to include the cart path to the Penalty Area, IMO.

[Augster]

Since there isn’t a defined area, in the local rules or on the course, of the location of the RPA, the line for the RPA would be right at the water line. So all the green grass would be part of the GA. 
 

For relief in the pic, for a right handed player, it’d be a reference point a couple inches to the left of where the ball is now, then 1CL relief on the slope. Likely drop twice and place. 
 

That’s how I’d see it. 
 

I have no idea why your club would play the RPA line all the way up to the edge of the path. That’s just looking for problems. There must be 10-20 feet of grass between the path and the actual water in the RPA. Why that grass should be part of the RPA is beyond me. 

[596]

I don't think you can make up where the PA is or should be.  The red line is not there, period.  All the grass from the left of that ball is GA.  Take cart path relief to the left and play on. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

The easiest thing would be to include the cart path to the Penalty Area, IMO.

 

Committee Procedures disagrees.

 

" . . . if there is an immovable obstruction such as a cart path or sprinkler head close to an area that the Committee is considering marking as a penalty area, the Committee may want to keep the obstruction outside the penalty area in order for a player to be entitled to free relief from it."

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=2

[Augster]

5 minutes ago, 596 said:

I don't think you can make up where the PA is or should be.  The red line is not there, period.  All the grass from the left of that ball is GA.  Take cart path relief to the left and play on. 

I agree.

 

This is from the definition of PA:
 

“When the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee, the edge of that penalty area is defined by its natural boundaries (that is, where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water).”

 

That slope isn’t designed to hold water.  It’s grass.  In the first picture you can see where the depression that holds water is. Left, well left of the tree. 
 

Drop in the grass and play on. 

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, 596 said:

I don't think you can make up where the PA is or should be.

 

See Definitions:

 

"When the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee, the edge of that penalty area is defined by its natural boundaries (that is, where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water)."

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Augster said:

I agree.

 

I disagree with your agree. 😉

[596]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

See Definitions:

 

"When the edge of a body of water is not defined by the Committee, the edge of that penalty area is defined by its natural boundaries (that is, where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water)."

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=51

Correct. You can not make up where the penalty should be. It's not even close to that cart path.  The rules put it all the way down near the body of water.  You can not make up that the penalty area is whatever inches from the edge of the cart path. Just as you quoted the rule.  Drop to the left of the cart path and move on.  There's nothing to disagree or agree with.  The rules say what's right. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by 596

[596]

Just now, 596 said:

C

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by 596

[sui generis]

8 minutes ago, 596 said:

where the ground slopes down

 

Are we looking at the same photograph? The one I see shows the ground suddenly sloping down to the water just inches left of the paved cart path.

 

I've been a referee for a long time and have painted my share of golf courses. Just left of the cart path would be where I'd put my red paint line every time.

[david.c.w]

26 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Are we looking at the same photograph? The one I see shows the ground suddenly sloping down to the water just inches left of the paved cart path.

 

I've been a referee for a long time and have painted my share of golf courses. Just left of the cart path would be where I'd put my red paint line every time.

 

How far to the left?  Would you generally want the player to take cart path relief on the left or the right?

[david.c.w]

46 minutes ago, 596 said:

Correct. You can not make up where the penalty should be. It's not even close to that cart path.  The rules put it all the way down near the body of water.  You can not make up that the penalty area is whatever inches from the edge of the cart path. Just as you quoted the rule.  Drop to the left of the cart path and move on.  There's nothing to disagree or agree with.  The rules say what's right. 

 

I don't understand.  I am pretty sure a PA line can be drawn anywhere for any reason.

Edited July 25, 2023 by david.c.w

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

Since there isn’t a defined area, in the local rules or on the course, of the location of the RPA, the line for the RPA would be right at the water line. So all the green grass would be part of the GA. 
 

For relief in the pic, for a right handed player, it’d be a reference point a couple inches to the left of where the ball is now, then 1CL relief on the slope. Likely drop twice and place. 
 

That’s how I’d see it. 
 

I have no idea why your club would play the RPA line all the way up to the edge of the path. That’s just looking for problems. There must be 10-20 feet of grass between the path and the actual water in the RPA. Why that grass should be part of the RPA is beyond me. 

Check out the words in the Definition referenced above:

.......where the ground slopes down to form the depression that can hold the water)."

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, david.c.w said:

 

How far to the left?  Would you generally want the player to take cart path relief on the left or the right?

Imo, as stated earlier, the line should be just a few inches to the left of the cart path, such that if a ball stopped between the cart path and the line, there would be interference by the cart path for the lie of the ball or area of intended swing.  But if the ball were touching the line, there would be no interference by the cart path for the lie of the ball or area of intended swing.

As sui has said, I've painted many penalty area lines, and we happen to have a similar situation on my home course.  During casual play, I disregard that players take penalty area relief without dropping on the cart path first (as the Rules require).

[david.c.w]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Imo, as stated earlier, the line should be just a few inches to the left of the cart path, such that if a ball stopped between the cart path and the line, there would be interference by the cart path for the lie of the ball or area of intended swing.  But if the ball were touching the line, there would be no interference by the cart path for the lie of the ball or area of intended swing.

As sui has said, I've painted many penalty area lines, and we happen to have a similar situation on my home course.  During casual play, I disregard that players take penalty area relief without dropping on the cart path first (as the Rules require).

 

So you would want the ball shown in the picture to take relief just left of the path, in between the path and the PA?

[rogolf]

Here's a diagram from another site.  The question was where should the line be drawn.  The consensus from referees was that C best met the definition in the Rules.

 

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

So you would want the ball shown in the picture to take relief just left of the path, in between the path and the PA?

No.  I wouldn't leave enough room between the line and the cart path for a ball outside the penalty to not have interference, but a ball touching the red line would not have interference for the area of intended swing.  Discussing it here is based on principle and somewhat difficult, seeing and doing it in the field is the real thing.

[david.c.w]

Just now, rogolf said:

No.  I wouldn't leave enough room between the line and the cart path for a ball outside the penalty to not have interference, but a ball touching the red line would not have interference for the area of intended swing.  Discussing it here is based on principle and somewhat difficult, seeing and doing it in the field is the real thing.

 

Understood.  Easy on paper, hard in the wild.  

 

Back to one of the original questions, does a ball touching a PA line AND have interference from the path get free relief from the path?  

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

Understood.  Easy on paper, hard in the wild.  

 

Back to one of the original questions, does a ball touching a PA line AND have interference from the path get free relief from the path?  

No. A ball touching the line is in the penalty area and there is no free relief from an immovable obstruction (such as a cart path) when a ball lies in a penalty area. The only options are to play the ball as it lies or to take penalty area relief. 

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Committee Procedures disagrees.

 

" . . . if there is an immovable obstruction such as a cart path or sprinkler head close to an area that the Committee is considering marking as a penalty area, the Committee may want to keep the obstruction outside the penalty area in order for a player to be entitled to free relief from it."

 

 

 

That is an option but both ways are feasible.

 

There is a course rather close by where there is a tarmac cart path adjacent to an uphill fairway and then adjacent to the cart path there is a ditch. We tend to declare the PA margin to be the edge of the path on the fairway side for sheer practical reasons. If the path were not part of the PA the player would have to take relief on the path and a ball dropped on the path never stays there but bounces tens of meters downhill. After two drops the player would place their ball with the same result and all this fiddling takes easily 3-4 minutes.

 

So the easiest way is to make the path part of the PA.

[Augster]

That grass is mown grass.
 

There is no need to put that in the PA. If was wild grass or something, I could see making it part of the PA, but mown grass? 

 

Because that grass is mown, and it’s green, there is a chance there may be a sprinkler in that grass if the committee makes the entire slope part of the RPA, when a player’s ball, or stance, or area of intended swing is going to contact that sprinkler head, he won’t get free relief because he’s in an RPA. On mown grass. On a sprinkler head. 
 

Marking the PA up at the path, and putting all that mown grass in the PA, seems silly to me. 

[Colin L]

The Committee can place a penalty area anywhere it likes for whatever reason.  In this instance there is the clear demarcation of where the ground sharply slopes down in the first place and what the Definition says. .   Additionally, it is quite a slope and the needs of of less agile players, of those of us who are lacking a bit in the fleetness of youthful feet and who find it a bit difficult to put on a sock standing up could be considered.   We are given the option of taking relief from a situation that could be hazardous.     

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

The Committee can place a penalty area anywhere it likes for whatever reason.  In this instance there is the clear demarcation of where the ground sharply slopes down in the first place and what the Definition says. .   Additionally, it is quite a slope and the needs of of less agile players, of those of us who are lacking a bit in the fleetness of youthful feet and who find it a bit difficult to put on a sock standing up could be considered.   We are given the option of taking relief from a situation that could be hazardous.     

 

Not to mention a clear case of double punishment, which should always be avoided if reasonably feasible.

[david.c.w]

Thank you all for the great responses.  Very educational and fun discussion.  Our course generally does a good job of marking PA's during big events.  It is just not really feasible to paint the whole course every 3 days during mowing season.  

[sui generis]

4 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

Our course generally does a good job of marking PA's during big events.  It is just not really feasible to paint the whole course every 3 days during mowing season.  

 

Same here. This Local Rule works for us:

 

PENALTY AREAS All penalty areas are designated as red penalty areas and are marked with red stakes and/or red lines. However, for any penalty area with red stakes only, the edge of that penalty area is defined by the adjacent mowing line.

[596]

11 hours ago, david.c.w said:

 

I don't understand.  I am pretty sure a PA line can be drawn anywhere for any reason.

But we are not talking about painting a line for a PA.  We are asked about relief as in the picture the OP provided.  There is no line in the picture during his round.  That said. Take cart path relief and play on. As a player during a round of golf you don't get to decide where you'd draw a PA line, then play as though the line you chose was there. 

[denkea]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

Same here. This Local Rule works for us:

 

PENALTY AREAS All penalty areas are designated as red penalty areas and are marked with red stakes and/or red lines. However, for any penalty area with red stakes only, the edge of that penalty area is defined by the adjacent mowing line.

What number local rule would that be?  

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, 596 said:

But we are not talking about painting a line for a PA.  We are asked about relief as in the picture the OP provided.  There is no line in the picture during his round.  That said. Take cart path relief and play on. As a player during a round of golf you don't get to decide where you'd draw a PA line, then play as though the line you chose was there. 

 

While the discussion has gone on to where the edge of the penalty area could be fixed, the fact remains that the area is a penalty area by the Definition of one and its edge is where the ground quite distinctly starts to slope steeply down - again by the Definition of a penalty area.  The awkwardness of that is that the edge coincides with the edge of the path such that the ball shown in the photo is likely to be in the penalty area.