A provisional drop outside a penalty area

[MarcellusW]

On one of my favorite youtube channels, Adam hit a tee shot on a Par 3 that crossed the margin of a pond.  He took a "provisional" and dropped near where his ball crossed the margin of the pond  Then, his original ball was found to have cleared the pond and landed on the other side.  He continued play with the original ball.

 

Am I correct that he could play a provisional ball from the tee, assuming there was a possibility his ball could be lost outside the penalty area?  But, once he took a drop, that becomes the ball in play?  I.e., you can't take a provisional drop.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

[rogolf]

7 minutes ago, MarcellusW said:

On one of my favorite youtube channels, Adam hit a tee shot on a Par 3 that crossed the margin of a pond.  He took a "provisional" and dropped near where his ball crossed the margin of the pond  Then, his original ball was found to have cleared the pond and landed on the other side.  He continued play with the original ball.

 

Am I correct that he could play a provisional ball from the tee, assuming there was a possibility his ball could be lost outside the penalty area?  But, once he took a drop, that becomes the ball in play?  I.e., you can't take a provisional drop.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

You are correct in normal circumstances.  HOWEVER, there is a Model Local Rule, which the Committee have implement under certain circumstances, that permits a provisional ball for penalty areas (see below).  But if the Committee has not implemented this Local Rule, it is not applicable.  Note that if the player knows the original ball is in the penalty area, a provisional ball is not permitted under the Model Local Rule.

B-3 Provisional Ball for Ball in a Penalty Area

Purpose. Under Rule 18.3, a player is not allowed to play a ball provisionally if it is known or virtually certain that their ball is in a penalty area.

But in unusual cases, the size, shape or location of a penalty area may be such that:

• The player cannot see whether the ball is in the penalty area,

• It would unreasonably delay play if the player had to go forward to look for the ball before returning to play another ball either under penalty of stroke and distance or another option under Rule 17, and

• If the original ball is not found, it would be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area.

For such situations, to save time a Committee may choose to modify Rule 18.3:

• Rule 18.3a is modified to allow the player to play a ball provisionally under Rule 17.1d(1), Rule 17.1d(2) or, for a red penalty area, Rule 17.1d(3).

• Rules 18.3b and 18.3c are modified to state when such a provisional ball must or may be played or abandoned, as stated in the Model Local Rule.

Model Local Rule B-3

“If a player does not know whether their ball is in the penalty area [identify location], the player may play a provisional ball under Rule 18.3, which is modified in this way:

In playing the provisional ball, the player may use the stroke-and-distance relief option (see Rule 17.1d(1), the back-on-the-line relief option (see Rule 17.1d(2)) or, if it is a red penalty area, the lateral relief option (see Rule 17.1d(3)). If a dropping zone is available for this penalty area, (see Model Local Rule E-1), the player may also use that relief option.

Once the player has played a provisional ball under this Rule, they may not use any further options under Rule 17.1 in relation to the original ball.

In deciding when that provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play or if it must or may be abandoned, Rule 18.3c(2) and 18.3c(3) apply except that:

• When Original Ball Is Found in Penalty Area Within Three-Minute Search Time. The player may choose either to:

  • Continue to play the original ball as it lies in the penalty area, in which case the provisional ball must not be played. All strokes with that provisional ball before it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count, or

  • Continue to play the provisional ball in which case the original ball must not be played.

• When Original Ball Is Not Found Within Three-Minute Search Time or Is Known or Virtually Certain to Be in Penalty Area. The provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play.

Penalty for Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty.”

Edited August 1, 2023 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, MarcellusW said:

On one of my favorite youtube channels, Adam hit a tee shot on a Par 3 that crossed the margin of a pond.  He took a "provisional" and dropped near where his ball crossed the margin of the pond  Then, his original ball was found to have cleared the pond and landed on the other side.  He continued play with the original ball.

 

Am I correct that he could play a provisional ball from the tee, assuming there was a possibility his ball could be lost outside the penalty area?  But, once he took a drop, that becomes the ball in play?  I.e., you can't take a provisional drop.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I believe you are correct on both counts.

 

Yes, he CAN hit a provisional FROM THE TEE if the ball might be lost outside a penalty area, or OB. In this case, no splash = might be lost.

 

No, he cannot take a provisional from where he dropped from the PA.

 

Once he takes a penalty drop, that ball is in play. A provisional can ONLY be hit from where the previous shot was hit.

[davep043]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Once he takes a penalty drop, that ball is in play. A provisional can ONLY be hit from where the previous shot was hit.

Its important to read MLR B-3, which @rogolf has quoted.  If B-3 is in effect, the player can use any of the Penalty Area relief options for his Provisional, he's not restricted to stroke and distance relief.  

[Augster]

To add on….

 

In casual play, in the US, each group is allowed to form its own committee and enact whatever MLR’s they see fit.

 

If he’s playing as a single, he can do whatever he’d like. He’s not posting for handicap anyway. He’s just a dude out shooting a score. 
 

In any kind of formal competition, check with the committee whether B3 is in effect and on which holes. 
 

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

Its important to read MLR B-3, which @rogolf has quoted.  If B-3 is in effect, the player can use any of the Penalty Area relief options for his Provisional, he's not restricted to stroke and distance relief.  

 

Well, to be fair, there was no mention of any local rule so I didn't feel any reason to mention B-3.

 

Perhaps if there was a mention of possibly (PA) dropping "on the other side" or some such I'd have thought about B-3 but his question seemed fairly straightforward.

 

The OP said "He took a "provisional" and dropped near where his ball crossed the margin of the pond  Then, his original ball was found to have cleared the pond and landed on the other side.  He continued play with the original ball."

 

I took that to mean the player wanted to provisionally play a ball from his PA relief before going and looking for the original shot - rather than playing a provisional from the tee and then dropping near the pond to hit a(nother ?) provisional from just outside the PA.

 

Re-reading it though, he didn't actually SAY the player HIT what he thought was the prov from out of the PA, and then found the original on the other side, in which case B-3 doesn't apply anyway, so, who knows ?

 

I'm sure Mr B will be around shortly to straighten everything out though. 👍

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

To add on….

 

In casual play, in the US, each group is allowed to form its own committee and enact whatever MLR’s they see fit.

 

 

Is that valid also on a private owned course where the course management has laid up Local Rules to be obeyed?

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, to be fair, there was no mention of any local rule so I didn't feel any reason to mention B-3.

 

Indeed, but you said that the ONLY etc. which of course if not correct.

 

Regarding RoG it is in many if in most instances dangerous to use the words always and only as there are so many exceptions especially within MLR's.

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I believe you are correct on both counts.

 

Yes, he CAN hit a provisional FROM THE TEE if the ball might be lost outside a penalty area, or OB. In this case, no splash = might be lost.

 

No, he cannot take a provisional from where he dropped from the PA.

 

Once he takes a penalty drop, that ball is in play. A provisional can ONLY be hit from where the previous shot was hit.

 

27 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Indeed, but you said that the ONLY etc. which of course if not correct.

 

Regarding RoG it is in many if in most instances dangerous to use the words always and only as there are so many exceptions especially within MLR's.

 

I agree with your description of always and only and their usage.

 

So please tell me what was incorrect about MY use of "only" ?

[bortass]

16 hours ago, MarcellusW said:

On one of my favorite youtube channels, Adam hit a tee shot on a Par 3 that crossed the margin of a pond.  He took a "provisional" and dropped near where his ball crossed the margin of the pond  Then, his original ball was found to have cleared the pond and landed on the other side.  He continued play with the original ball.

 

Am I correct that he could play a provisional ball from the tee, assuming there was a possibility his ball could be lost outside the penalty area?  But, once he took a drop, that becomes the ball in play?  I.e., you can't take a provisional drop.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Lol, I saw that too and was wondering if a rule had changed.

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

I agree with your description of always and only and their usage.

 

So please tell me what was incorrect about MY use of "only" ?

 

This:

" A provisional can ONLY be hit from where the previous shot was hit."

 

A part from MLR B-3.

 

"For such situations, to save time a Committee may choose to modify Rule 18.3:

• Rule 18.3a is modified to allow the player to play a ball provisionally under Rule 17.1d(1), Rule 17.1d(2) or, for a red penalty area, Rule 17.1d(3)."

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This:

" A provisional can ONLY be hit from where the previous shot was hit."

 

A part from MLR B-3.

 

"For such situations, to save time a Committee may choose to modify Rule 18.3:

• Rule 18.3a is modified to allow the player to play a ball provisionally under Rule 17.1d(1), Rule 17.1d(2) or, for a red penalty area, Rule 17.1d(3)."

 

 

 

Once again, I was only referring to the original issue, NOT any local rules, but thanks anyway.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Is that valid also on a private owned course where the course management has laid up Local Rules to be obeyed?

Yes. 
 

In casual play, each group is its own committee. Any course can lay out “local Rules” like “free drop from the flower beds” or “the long grass is environmentally sensitive. NPZ, do not enter”. And “local rules” like that SHOULD be obeyed because those are the wishes of the course management. 
 

But for a casual game, and certainly to keep play moving, any individual group could proclaim “all OB stakes are actually Red stakes”, and “2&2 around the greens”, and “LCP in your own fairway”, and like this situation, “all PA’s have MLR B-2”. Etc. etc. 

 

Practically every local Rule helps a player score better. Play with enough local rules every time out, and eventually, your cap will be artificially low. So much so that you’ll have almost no chance in formal competitions. 
 

Using tons of local rules is fine if you only play with your buddies and they all play with them also. That group(s) will have an equitable game each time out. It’s only if someone wants to play outside those groups, in formal comps, where they don’t get to set the MLR’s used where they won’t be able to compete on a net basis. 
 

They are the same guys that constantly pick up 3-footers in casual play, play with too many MLR’s making the game much easier than it is, then accuse everyone else of being sandbaggers. 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Yes. 
 

In casual play, each group is its own committee. Any course can lay out “local Rules” like “free drop from the flower beds” or “the long grass is environmentally sensitive. NPZ, do not enter”. And “local rules” like that SHOULD be obeyed because those are the wishes of the course management. 
 

But for a casual game, and certainly to keep play moving, any individual group could proclaim “all OB stakes are actually Red stakes”, and “2&2 around the greens”, and “LCP in your own fairway”, and like this situation, “all PA’s have MLR B-2”. Etc. etc. 

 

Practically every local Rule helps a player score better. Play with enough local rules every time out, and eventually, your cap will be artificially low. So much so that you’ll have almost no chance in formal competitions. 
 

Using tons of local rules is fine if you only play with your buddies and they all play with them also. That group(s) will have an equitable game each time out. It’s only if someone wants to play outside those groups, in formal comps, where they don’t get to set the MLR’s used where they won’t be able to compete on a net basis. 
 

They are the same guys that constantly pick up 3-footers in casual play, play with too many MLR’s making the game much easier than it is, then accuse everyone else of being sandbaggers. 

One minor problem with a LR free-for-all is that courses are rated with course markings fixed and with knowledge of relevant LRs. I suspect 'small group committees' making their own LRS are more likely to lower the effective CR than increase it. But probably not by much.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Newby

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

But for a casual game, and certainly to keep play moving, any individual group could proclaim “all OB stakes are actually Red stakes”, and “2&2 around the greens”, and “LCP in your own fairway”, and like this situation, “all PA’s have MLR B-2”. Etc. etc.

 

No, they can't. You say this all the time, but no, each group is not its own "committee." In some very specific instances, sure. Otherwise, play golf and follow the rules; don't just make up your own "committee" and play OB as a red penalty area and stuff.

 

As was noted above, the CR would be different, and golfers can't just decide all bunkers are GUR today or that you're playing winter rules or whatever.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by iacas

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Yes. 
 

In casual play, each group is its own committee. Any course can lay out “local Rules” like “free drop from the flower beds” or “the long grass is environmentally sensitive. NPZ, do not enter”. And “local rules” like that SHOULD be obeyed because those are the wishes of the course management. 
 

But for a casual game, and certainly to keep play moving, any individual group could proclaim “all OB stakes are actually Red stakes”, and “2&2 around the greens”, and “LCP in your own fairway”, and like this situation, “all PA’s have MLR B-2”. Etc. etc.

 

56 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

No, they can't. You say this all the time, but no, each group is not its own "committee." In some very specific instances, sure. Otherwise, play golf and follow the rules; don't just make up your own "committee" and play OB as a red penalty area and stuff.

 

As was noted above, the CR would be different, and golfers can't just decide all bunkers are GUR today or that you're playing winter rules or whatever.

 

 

So, instead of a blanket "No they can't", why not tell us what the casual 4-some CAN do ?

 

I'm just a muni (former) club player. I've played my share of resort-type and semi-private courses and a few times even got onto a private course. But ~90% public/muni.

 

Other than a board in the locker room (or the men's room), or occasionally a sign near the pro shop cash register, which spells out the standing (local) rules of the golf course, the ONLY signage spelling out any "rules of the day" are "Cart Path Only" signs. 

 

Never so much as a "preferred lies" sign UNLESS there is a formal tournament being played. There ARE some scorecards with a local rule or 2 on them.

 

The VAST majority of rounds I've played have been on days where there were NO formal tournaments being played.

 

So for casual play, who runs the show ? E-5 ? 2+2 around the greens ? Opposite side of a red PA ?

 

I actually was going to ask ol' Augie about his "all OB stakes are actually Red stakes" 'cause I don't recall hearing that one. But the others are all local rules that many courses never mention.

 

In any case, in the Rules, the "Role of the Committee" starts with "The Rules of Golf define the Committee as the person or group in charge of a competition"

 

Also included is "During general play, the structure of the Committee is often more informal than in competitions, and in many cases the responsibilities of the Committee will be delegated to or undertaken by one or more course representatives, such as the golf professional, course manager or other employee of the course"

 

There may or may not be a golf professional or course manager around. A cashier ? Sure. A starter ? Sure. Cart guys ? Yup. But anybody to make/advise the rules of the day ? Almost never (again, in my experience).

 

So when a casual group goes out here in the States, who would you suggest the "committee" is ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by nsxguy

[iacas]

19 hours ago, nsxguy said:

So, instead of a blanket "No they can't", why not tell us what the casual 4-some CAN do ?

 

Because I didn't feel the need to… I just wanted to speak up against @Augster saying ridiculous things like "you can change OB to red laterals if you want!"

 

Just play by the Rules of Golf. If you think it's a type of day that warrant winter rules, inquire in the pro shop if they care enough. You'll never go wrong just playing golf, by the rules, as written, without any unmentioned Local Rules (look on the card or in the shop for the published Local Rules).

[Augster]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Because I didn't feel the need to… I just wanted to speak up against @Augster saying ridiculous things like "you can change OB to red laterals if you want!"

 

Just play by the Rules of Golf. If you think it's a type of day that warrant winter rules, inquire in the pro shop if they care enough. You'll never go wrong just playing golf, by the rules, as written, without any unmentioned Local Rules (look on the card or in the shop for the published Local Rules).

Two players can form their own committee to govern their own game that day in casual play. 
 

It is akin to the State Association coming to a course before a qualifier and setting it up they way THEY want it set up for their competition. In most cases, a state association will remove red stakes on the outside of a property and put in OB. The COURSE has red stakes there to keep play moving. Or the state association will remove a drop zone that is on the other side of a PA that the COURSE puts there for everyday play to keep play moving. Legal or not. 
 

Players are allowed to be their own committee and play as they see fit in casual rounds. 
 

If you have some new information, please enlighten us. You may want to contact the USGA before that though. Something may have changed when the WHS went into effect, but I haven’t seen anything that contradicts what the USGA told Sawgrass in 2017. 
 

 

 

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, Augster said:

It is akin to the State Association

 

It isn't.

[Augster]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It isn't.

According to the USGA it is.
 

From Sawgrass’s post:

 

 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

According to the USGA it is.

 

No, two players deciding to play OB as a red lateral is not "akin" to a state golf association making informed, traditional decisions about how to set up a course for a competition.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No, two players deciding to play OB as a red lateral is not "akin" to a state golf association making informed, traditional decisions about how to set up a course for a competition.

 

Indeed. It sure would be wild if players could decide whether they get 2 extra strokes or only 1 plus get a secure spot to continue thus possibly avoiding even more strokes. How on earth could such scores be postable as the Course Rating would be very different and would vary from group to group???

 

(Well, they do vary anyway as one group uses LCP and declares various places as GUR while some others play the course as it is. Which is so alient from our standpoint as ALL courses around here have Local Rules set by the Committee of that particular course and they are respected, of course.)

[Colin L]

52 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

........ALL courses around here have Local Rules set by the Committee of that particular course and they are respected, of course.)

I would say that most courses in the UK have local rules published, but not all deserve to be respected.  This is a fine example encountered recently:

 

LIFT AND DROP 

A ball lying on any path may be lifted and dropped, not nearer the hole, without penalty. Through the General Area, a ball lying in a wheel mark or drainage line may, in consultation with fellow competitors, be lifted and dropped, not nearer the hole, without penalty so as to preserve as nearly as possible, the stance required to play from the original lie. After the drop, the ball is in play. 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

I would say that most courses in the UK have local rules published, but not all deserve to be respected.  This is a fine example encountered recently:

 

LIFT AND DROP 

A ball lying on any path may be lifted and dropped, not nearer the hole, without penalty. Through the General Area, a ball lying in a wheel mark or drainage line may, in consultation with fellow competitors, be lifted and dropped, not nearer the hole, without penalty so as to preserve as nearly as possible, the stance required to play from the original lie. After the drop, the ball is in play. 

 

I can proudly say that since 2019 with Model Local Rules available such humorous attempts to write a decent LR have diminished drastically in my country. We also used to have four LR's in force on every course in the country and that has certainly helped as the wording was the same all over.

 

Then again, we have so few courses here compared to UK so there are less chances to have a local poet to draft such LR's as there is a national referee in or close by every society setting things straight. But once in a while one steps onto a peculiarly worded LR but I must say your example is way beyond our silly wordings.

[Colin L]

Believe me, I have seen worse.  The one quoted was at a course being used for an area tournament and is a good example of why we follow the normal pattern of having a hard card, disregarding the course's own local rules and writing up any additional ones for situations arising on a particular course which are not covered by the hard card.  

[nsxguy]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No, two players deciding to play OB as a red lateral is not "akin" to a state golf association making informed, traditional decisions about how to set up a course for a competition.

 

Just curious. Iirc, I believe you've said you had experience as part of a rating team, yes ?

 

Not holding you to any hard and fast rule (unless there IS one ), let's consider an example.

 

Take a single straightaway par 4 hole, normally requiring a driver (if that even matters) and a mid-iron. OB right, fairly tight to the fairway, say 10 yards off of it.

 

If instead of OB, it was a Penalty Area, what would the approx diff in course rating be ?

 

And, what if that same OB/PA line be if it was say, 40 yards right of the fairway ?

 

TIA  👍

[iacas]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

If instead of OB, it was a Penalty Area, what would the approx diff in course rating be ?

 

And, what if that same OB/PA line be if it was say, 40 yards right of the fairway ?

 

Is the fairway 20 yards wide or is it 50 yards wide? Is there a slope that increases the rate at which balls feed into the PA or away from it? What's the length of the approach shot? Is there a forced layup off the tee? Etc.

 

It wouldn't be much, but the rating isn't the important thing here per se, it's that someone who should score a 7 on a hole might score a 5 by not playing OB as OB. They don't get to make that kind of determination.

[Mr. Bean]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:57 PM, Colin L said:

Believe me, I have seen worse.  The one quoted was at a course being used for an area tournament and is a good example of why we follow the normal pattern of having a hard card, disregarding the course's own local rules and writing up any additional ones for situations arising on a particular course which are not covered by the hard card.  

 

That is a standard practice also here. Only such LR's are preserved that are unique to the course in question but even those are throroughly checked and re-written if needed before the competition.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Mr. Bean
Grammar

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is a standard practice also here. Only such LR's are preserved that are unique to the course in question but even those are throroughly checked and re-writed if needed before the competition.

Ditto