NFL Weekly Picks 2023

[TiScape]

Football 🏈 starts tonight!!! 🙌🏼

Lets go LIONS! 

[TiScape]

I’m kinda torn on these guys holding out while they are under a contract that they happily signed. On one side I get it. Football is a chew em up, spit em out industry. Get what you can while you can because there is no loyalty and a franchise will have no problem kicking you to the curb when you are no longer of use to them. On the other hand, you willingly signed a contract which use to be a binding agreement! Where do you guys stand on all these hold outs? 

[TiScape]

Okay, at the risk of feeling like I’m just rambling on… haha

The extent of my Pat McAfee exposure thus far has been the short clips other shows have shown of ARog on his show. Well now ESPN has picked him up and I’ve been watching for ~5 minutes. Initial impression, It’s (he’s) insufferable. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I’m kinda torn on these guys holding out while they are under a contract that they happily signed. On one side I get it. Football is a chew em up, spit em out industry. Get what you can while you can because there is no loyalty and a franchise will have no problem kicking you to the curb when you are no longer of use to them. On the other hand, you willingly signed a contract which use to be a binding agreement! Where do you guys stand on all these hold outs? 

 

 

... I don't see hardly any players holding out to change the contract they signed. They hold out the last year of the contracts they signed as leverage to sign a future contract. But there are just too many variables to make any kind of blanket statement. Many didn't sign "happily" but compromised for a number of reasons. Contracts signed under a prove yourself criteria, and then they do but get no love from a new GM can be a problem. And rookie contracts that have great players playing for far less than they are worth need to be addressed and compensated with a new and fair contract. 

... Any player using leverage in their final year is just good negotiating. "We will pay you what your worth on the next contract if you sign this one" then when it's time to negotiate the GM doesn't want to address it til after the season because the risk of injury is always present. For a player to say "pay me what I am worth and you promised me. I will play out this last season under contract and then leave with you getting nothing" is just good negotiating. I do think in the end it is typical Capitalism. The GM wants to pay as little as possible and the player wants as much as they can get. I do think when a professional is dependent on their team mates to win, get paid more along with the glory of a SB and their best player holds out, I only hear them say that's business and they hope he gets what he deserves. 

[CHuntsman]

27 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I’m kinda torn on these guys holding out while they are under a contract that they happily signed. On one side I get it. Football is a chew em up, spit em out industry. Get what you can while you can because there is no loyalty and a franchise will have no problem kicking you to the curb when you are no longer of use to them. On the other hand, you willingly signed a contract which use to be a binding agreement! Where do you guys stand on all these hold outs? 

 

Make that money, BooBoo!! As you stated, there is zero loyalty from the owners!

Edited September 7, 2023 by CHuntsman

[TiScape]

6 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I don't see hardly any players holding out to change the contract they signed. They hold out the last year of the contracts they signed as leverage to sign a future contract. But there are just too many variables to make any kind of blanket statement. Many didn't sign "happily" but compromised for a number of reasons. Contracts signed under a prove yourself criteria, and then they do but get no love from a new GM can be a problem. And rookie contracts that have great players playing for far less than they are worth need to be addressed and compensated with a new and fair contract. 

... Any player using leverage in their final year is just good negotiating. "We will pay you what your worth on the next contract if you sign this one" then when it's time to negotiate the GM doesn't want to address it til after the season because the risk of injury is always present. For a player to say "pay me what I am worth and you promised me. I will play out this last season under contract and then leave with you getting nothing" is just good negotiating. I do think in the end it is typical Capitalism. The GM wants to pay as little as possible and the player wants as much as they can get. I do think when a professional is dependent on their team mates to win, get paid more along with the glory of a SB and their best player holds out, I only hear them say that's business and they hope he gets what he deserves. 

Good point. Shoulda said signed willingly not “happily” 😊

[deadsolid...shank]

34 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I’m kinda torn on these guys holding out while they are under a contract that they happily signed. On one side I get it. Football is a chew em up, spit em out industry. Get what you can while you can because there is no loyalty and a franchise will have no problem kicking you to the curb when you are no longer of use to them. On the other hand, you willingly signed a contract which use to be a binding agreement! Where do you guys stand on all these hold outs? 

I’m not involved in the picking thread, but do enjoy reading it. But I’ll chime in here:

 

You signed on the bottom line. Nobody forced  you to. How would it go over if the owner said “I signed you for this much and I don’t think you’re living up to it, I’m not going to pay you the contract amount”. How fast would said player call for the Players Association?  
 

I’ve yet to see a player offer to give some of his pay back because he’s playing poorly. 
 

I’m a pretty black and white person. You signed it, shook hands, gave your word, etc.  Thats binding!

 

Can you tell I’m old!?

Edited September 7, 2023 by deadsolid...shank

[TiScape]

2 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I’m not involved in the picking thread, but do enjoy reading it. But I’ll chime in here:

 

You signed on the bottom line. Nobody forced  you to. How would it go over if the owner said “I signed you for this much and I don’t think you’re living up to it, I’m not going to pay you the contract amount”. How fast would said player call for the Players Association?  
 

I’ve yet to see a player offer to give some of his pay back because he’s playing poorly. 
 

I’m a pretty black and white person. You signed it, shook hands, gave your word, etc.  Thats binding!

 

Can you tell I’m old!?

Old or not. That’s how I feel as well. Still get why they do it, just has a real bad smell to it to me.
And I’m not involved in the picking either. They know they can’t get rid of me here tho 

😜

[chisag]

Just now, deadsolid...shank said:

I’m a pretty black and white person. You signed it, shook hands, gave your word, etc.  Thats binding!

 

 

... Maybe were are talking about different things. But I haven't heard of a player not abiding by a contract they signed. They just use the last year of their contract as a negotiating tool for the next contract. The flip side of the argument is when a player gets injured without guaranteed money, they are tossed aside like garbage with no compensation. And now CTE is a concern and I don't think 20 yr old kids are mature enough to understand those consequences. Personally I don't buy the argument of giving back money for playing poorly. They are being paid to put in the work at practice and study and then give 100% in games. If they do all that they deserve to be paid. If they aren't doing those things they can be cut or traded. 

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Maybe were are talking about different things. But I haven't heard of a player not abiding by a contract they signed. They just use the last year of their contract as a negotiating tool for the next contract. The flip side of the argument is when a player gets injured without guaranteed money, they are tossed aside like garbage with no compensation. And now CTE is a concern and I don't think 20 yr old kids are mature enough to understand those consequences. Personally I don't buy the argument of giving back money for playing poorly. They are being paid to put in the work at practice and study and then give 100% in games. If they do all that they deserve to be paid. If they aren't doing those things they can be cut or traded. 

I can think of 3 guys off the top of my head that are under contract for this season that were holding out/refusing to participate this season under said signed contract. 

[deadsolid...shank]

17 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Maybe were are talking about different things. But I haven't heard of a player not abiding by a contract they signed. They just use the last year of their contract as a negotiating tool for the next contract. The flip side of the argument is when a player gets injured without guaranteed money, they are tossed aside like garbage with no compensation. And now CTE is a concern and I don't think 20 yr old kids are mature enough to understand those consequences. Personally I don't buy the argument of giving back money for playing poorly. They are being paid to put in the work at practice and study and then give 100% in games. If they do all that they deserve to be paid. If they aren't doing those things they can be cut or traded. 

I’m assuming when you say they deserve to be paid you mean you expect the owners to honor the terms of the contract, correct?  The one both parties signed?  If they’re the age of majority then they’re old enough to sign the contract. Then they’re old enough to abide by terms. First or last year, that’s irrelevant. 
 

20 year old kids sign contract to buy a car. They’re expected to follow the terms of that contract. 

I get what you’re saying and fully understand it’s a cut throat business. But that’s why that 20 year old kid, with no other marketable skills, is signing for $660,000 (NFL minimum salary). Big risk, big reward. 
 

It’s just my opinion, but I do feel strongly about it, that you honor the deal you signed. And if it’s ok not to, then it’s ok for the other side as well. 

[chisag]

17 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I can think of 3 guys off the top of my head that are under contract for this season that were holding out/refusing to participate this season under said signed contract. 

 

 

... Well name them. I don't think any of them want this year renegotiated but maybe I'm wrong. They just aren't playing until the next contract is signed and we have no idea what was said to put them in that position. This seems like the typical scenario:



 

Jones, entering the final year of his contract as the ninth-highest paid DT in the NFL, wants to be paid closer to Aaron Donald's $31.7 million-per-year figure. While it's a surprise sides have yet to come to a solution with the season commencing, Jones said he hasn't been frustrated by the situation.

 

"I've been in Miami, just training, staying focused, understanding that this is a process," he said. "I've been keeping in contact with my teammates. I'm still working out every day, still doing similar things that they do in training camp. The camaraderie, we got a lot of new players, there's that aspect of it. But I'll be ready to go when that times calls."
 

Jones added that he felt holding out was less distracting to teammates than a hold-in, which is one reason he stayed away, already accruing fines upwards of $2 million. The 29-year-old said it's just business.
 

"It's just like when you're at a job, and you ask for an extension, right, and you ask for a raise, right? You're not letting anyone down," Jones said. "Who are you letting down for asking your boss for a raise, right? So when you take the personal feelings out of it, all I'm doing is asking for a raise."
 

At this point, sides haven't been able to find common ground on a raise, putting the start of the season in jeopardy.

Asked what his plan was for Thursday, Jones responded:  "I don't know yet, man. I don't know. I could be playing. I could be on the sidelines. I don't know. We'll see tomorrow."

We certainly will.

[touch]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Okay, at the risk of feeling like I’m just rambling on… haha

The extent of my Pat McAfee exposure thus far has been the short clips other shows have shown of ARog on his show. Well now ESPN has picked him up and I’ve been watching for ~5 minutes. Initial impression, It’s (he’s) insufferable. 

 

 

Yeah I never got sports fans love for Pat. He is insufferable and he is also a tacky dresser. I avoid the dude. 

[TiScape]

13 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Well name them. I don't think any of them want this year renegotiated but maybe I'm wrong. They just aren't playing until the next contract is signed and we have no idea what was said to put them in that position. This seems like the typical scenario:



 

Jones, entering the final year of his contract as the ninth-highest paid DT in the NFL, wants to be paid closer to Aaron Donald's $31.7 million-per-year figure. While it's a surprise sides have yet to come to a solution with the season commencing, Jones said he hasn't been frustrated by the situation.

 

"I've been in Miami, just training, staying focused, understanding that this is a process," he said. "I've been keeping in contact with my teammates. I'm still working out every day, still doing similar things that they do in training camp. The camaraderie, we got a lot of new players, there's that aspect of it. But I'll be ready to go when that times calls."
 

Jones added that he felt holding out was less distracting to teammates than a hold-in, which is one reason he stayed away, already accruing fines upwards of $2 million. The 29-year-old said it's just business.
 

"It's just like when you're at a job, and you ask for an extension, right, and you ask for a raise, right? You're not letting anyone down," Jones said. "Who are you letting down for asking your boss for a raise, right? So when you take the personal feelings out of it, all I'm doing is asking for a raise."
 

At this point, sides haven't been able to find common ground on a raise, putting the start of the season in jeopardy.

Asked what his plan was for Thursday, Jones responded:  "I don't know yet, man. I don't know. I could be playing. I could be on the sidelines. I don't know. We'll see tomorrow."

We certainly will.

They don’t want this year re-negotiated, but they won’t play this year (even tho they are contracted to do so) if they don’t get a new contract for the following years… Uh, okay. In my book that’s not honoring the contract they previously signed 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

Chris Jones (still not participating)

Nick Bosa (got an extension)

Were both already under a contract to play this season. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by TiScape

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I’m assuming when you say they deserve to be paid you mean you expect the owners to honor the terms of the contract, correct?  The one both parties signed?  If they’re the age of majority then they’re old enough to sign the contract. Then they’re old enough to abide by terms. First or last year, that’s irrelevant. 
 

20 year old kids sign contract to buy a car. They’re expected to follow the terms of that contract. 

I get what you’re saying and fully understand it’s a cut throat business. But that’s why that 20 year old kid, with no other marketable skills, is signing for $660,000 (NFL minimum salary). Big risk, big reward. 
 

It’s just my opinion, but I do feel strongly about it, that you honor the deal you signed. And if it’s ok not to, then it’s ok for the other side as well. 

 

 

... Again and not to beat a dead horse but I haven't seen any player not abiding by the current contract. They are just holding out for the next contract so I guess we just have different opinions. I have no problem with management expecting any player to honor their contract. Unless it is a rookie contract and they have vastly out performed their current pay. But even then, you make it up with the next contract. So many fans get pi$$ed off when a player signs a new deal when they think the player is being over paid, when in reality they are being paid for their last contract when they were undervalued combined with their new contract. If you avreage out their new deal with their old deal, it is usually pretty fair to both sides. 

... As an old school kinda guy I am disappointed in the final contract not being paid for a life of service. Somone like Urlacher getting a one year contract at the end of his career worth much more than his ability, but a reward for a life of service. I do get player are as much to blame for leaving an organization to make more money someplace else so playing your entire career with one tam is getting to be pretty rare and the "reward" isn;t as appropriate as it was when players were loyal to they teams. 

[deadsolid...shank]

Chi, 

 

I could be off in places here as my memory is pretty poor.

A few years back , possibly right after their Super Bowl win, Von Miller held out on the Broncos. Being he was a fan favorite Elway was basically forced to meet his demands (yes, there is some speculation in there on my part as obviously none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors). They upped his money, and shortly after, a couple of OL couldn’t be resigned due to money. It’s been a pretty down hill slide for them since. 
 

So the crap about being a good teammate while you’re holding out doesn’t hold water with me. You’re absolutely letting your teammates down. 
It’s about ME, not the team. Which we all know is true. So again, I say, if it’s ok for one side, then it has to be ok for the other as well. 

[chisag]

1 minute ago, TiScape said:

They don’t want this year re-negotiated, but they won’t play this year (even tho they are contracted to do so) if they don’t get a new contract for the following years… Uh, okay. In my book that’s not honoring the contract they previously signed 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

 

... Again, we have no idea what management said when they signed that contract. I do hear players say they promised me if I signed this contract they would compensate me with the next contract. And the the GM's try and lowball the next contract. We just see it differently and of course that's cool, but they do honor the current contract hen a new one is signed. They just aren't going to work until their future is taken care of. I don't think that is unlike many jobs and management always have the option to fire you or reward you. I understand both sides and it's just business. 

... Many SAG actors signed a contract for a film or TV show and didn't report for work because SAG is on strike and negotiating for a fair future contract. So just like a NFL player, they aren't honoring their current contract until management agrees to a new fair contract. In most cases as you well know, management holds all the cards and in most cases can fire you, or trade you forcing you to take your kids out of school or force your spouse to get a new job leaving one they love when you didn't want to leave. Workers can't o that with management so I appreciate when they actually hav the leverage to force management to just be fair. 

 

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Again, we have no idea what management said when they signed that contract. I do hear players say they promised me if I signed this contract they would compensate me with the next contract. And the the GM's try and lowball the next contract. We just see it differently and of course that's cool, but they do honor the current contract hen a new one is signed. They just aren't going to work until their future is taken care of. I don't think that is unlike many jobs and management always have the option to fire you or reward you. I understand both sides and it's just business. 

... Many SAG actors signed a contract for a film or TV show and didn't report for work because SAG is on strike and negotiating for a fair future contract. So just like a NFL player, they aren't honoring their current contract until management agrees to a new fair contract. In most cases as you well know, management holds all the cards and in most cases can fire you, or trade you forcing you to take your kids out of school or force your spouse to get a new job leaving one they love when you didn't want to leave. Workers can't o that with management so I appreciate when they actually hav the leverage to force management to just be fair. 

 

“When a new one is signed”. And until a new one is signed, they most definitely are not honoring the current contract 

[touch]

That is it. The betting window is closed.

All the picks are in. 

The contest officially begins today. 

All the participants are excited and ready to go. 

 

Week 1 

imk                 Washington PP      Car/Atl Over                Cincy/ Clev Under

NJBF              Washington           Jacksonville PP           Minnesota

chisag            Washington            Chicago                      San Fran

P48                 Det/KC Over          Jacksonville PP          Philadelphia

BC                  Washington             Dallas                         Chicago

TL                  Washington             Jacksonville                Seattle

P3P                KC                           Jacksonville                Pittsburgh

DMM              KC                           Denver PP                    Pittsburgh

LP                   Detroit                    Washington                NY Giants 

NCL               Car/Atl Under          Green Bay                  Philadelphia

CH                 Det/KC Under          Carolina                     Cincinnati 

doc                Washington             Baltimore                    NE/Phil Under

Q                    KC                           Jacksonville                Buffalo 

 

 

This will be fun.

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by touch

[chisag]

9 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

A few years back , possibly right after their Super Bowl win, Von Miller held out on the Broncos. Being he was a fan favorite Elway was basically forced to meet his demands (yes, there is some speculation in there on my part as obviously none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors). They upped his money, and shortly after, a couple of OL couldn’t be resigned due to money. It’s been a pretty down hill slide for them since. 
 

So the crap about being a good teammate while you’re holding out doesn’t hold water with me. You’re absolutely letting your teammates down. 
It’s about ME, not the team. Which we all know is true. So again, I say, if it’s ok for one side, then it has to be ok for the other as well. 

 

 

... At the risk of repeating myself over and over again, it is a business. As much as us fans want to think it is a team sport like high school or college, it isn't. It is big business with big money involved. I have yet to see or read of any player disappointed with a team mate holding out for more money. They are always on the players side to get more money, unless that player is a selfish Word not allowedhole which happens. 

... Who won the SB 5 years ago? My guess is off the top of your head you have no idea unless it was your favorite team. But those players have a life and probably medical bills for the rest of their life. 

... That all said, I do appreciate those that restructure their contracts so the GM can sign players that can help them win a SB. Although to be fair, they are usually already set for life so it is a little easier for them to be a "team player". 

[deadsolid...shank]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Again, we have no idea what management said when they signed that contract. I do hear players say they promised me if I signed this contract they would compensate me with the next contract. And the the GM's try and lowball the next contract. We just see it differently and of course that's cool, but they do honor the current contract hen a new one is signed. They just aren't going to work until their future is taken care of. I don't think that is unlike many jobs and management always have the option to fire you or reward you. I understand both sides and it's just business. 

... Many SAG actors signed a contract for a film or TV show and didn't report for work because SAG is on strike and negotiating for a fair future contract. So just like a NFL player, they aren't honoring their current contract until management agrees to a new fair contract. In most cases as you well know, management holds all the cards and in most cases can fire you, or trade you forcing you to take your kids out of school or force your spouse to get a new job leaving one they love when you didn't want to leave. Workers can't o that with management so I appreciate when they actually hav the leverage to force management to just be fair. 

 

Fair is such a subjective term:

 

$660,000 a year. Minimum.  Give me some fair!  That’s the trade off, you make that kind of money, you assume some risks, like getting traded to another city. Or cut….but wait, if I’m cut and have a guaranteed contract, they have to pay it! Unless the owner decided to “hold out”. Wait, he’s expected to fulfill his part of the contract. 

[deadsolid...shank]

Just now, chisag said:

 

 

... At the risk of repeating myself over and over again, it is a business. As much as us fans want to think it is a team sport like high school or college, it isn't. It is big business with big money involved. I have yet to see or read of any player disappointed with a team mate holding out for more money. They are always on the players side to get more money, unless that player is a selfish Word not allowedhole which happens. 

... Who won the SB 5 years ago? My guess is off the top of your head you have no idea unless it was your favorite team. But those players have a life and probably medical bills for the rest of their life. 

... That all said, I do appreciate those that restructure their contracts so the GM can sign players that can help them win a SB. Although to be fair, they are usually already set for life so it is a little easier for them to be a "team player". 

You summed it up perfectly. It is a business. And if I’m the business and one of my employees doesn’t honor his commitment, no pay for him. 
 

And it was the quote you posted above from the prayer holding out who kept talking about team and teammates. Which I said was a load of crap, his PR crew is spinning that so he doesn’t look like a greedy money grubbed. 

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, TiScape said:

“When a new one is signed”. And until a new one is signed, they most definitely are not honoring the current contract 

 

 

... So what you're saying is I can type till my fingers are sore and you aren't gonna look at this even a little differently? You did ask for opinions but OK, you win. Any player not honoring their current contracts are witches and should be burned at the stake.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

Any way. Good discussion. 
 

And Chi, I’d love to see your Bears do well this season. I’ve never been a fan of them in particular, but Walter was my favorite player (I bet he never held out!😀)!

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... So what you're saying is I can type till my fingers are sore and you aren't gonna look at this even a little differently? You did ask for opinions but OK, you win. Any player not honoring their current contracts are witches and should be burned at the stake.

 

 

Look at if differently? Chris Jones signed a contract to play this season. He’s refusing to play. Pretty black n white to me chi. But appreciate all your typing/cutting n pasting 😊
 

Sometimes I forget how sensitive you are! 😜

Edited September 7, 2023 by TiScape

[deadsolid...shank]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... So what you're saying is I can type till my fingers are sore and you aren't gonna look at this even a little differently? You did ask for opinions but OK, you win. Any player not honoring their current contracts are witches and should be burned at the stake.

 

I don’t think there’s a lot of middle ground opinion on this one Chi.  People seem to feel pretty strongly, one side or another. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

You summed it up perfectly. It is a business. And if I’m the business and one of my employees doesn’t honor his commitment, no pay for him. 

 

 

... I think lost in this discussion is management always has that option. Don't wanna pay Chris Jones what he's worth in a new contract and he won't play til you do? Fire his Word not allowed and don't pay him. The fact is other than guaranteed money management can just cut or trade any player they want and the player has zero recourse. I find it much simpler than some of you. If the player is worth it, management will always pay. If they are not, they will be cut or traded. You just don't see average players holding out, it's only those that management values but don't wanna pay. 

 

 

[NJBigFish22]

I have no problem with players trying to get what they can.  If your contract isn’t guaranteed the owner can cut you or force to restructure, so the players should use what ever leverage they have.  Plus it’s only the Top guys doing this, Zach Martin (one of the best OL), Chris Jones (one of the best DL), Nick Bosa (a top pass rusher).  40-45 of the 53 guys on the roster for each team is just trying to stay in the league, because not a lot of jobs paying 600K out of college.  This could be fixed if every sport had 1 year guaranteed contracts, play well, get paid, don’t play well you find another team for probably less money.

[deadsolid...shank]

1 minute ago, NJBigFish22 said:

I have no problem with players trying to get what they can.  If your contract isn’t guaranteed the owner can cut you or force to restructure, so the players should use what ever leverage they have.  Plus it’s only the Top guys doing this, Zach Martin (one of the best OL), Chris Jones (one of the best DL), Nick Bosa (a top pass rusher).  40-45 of the 53 guys on the roster for each team is just trying to stay in the league, because not a lot of jobs paying 600K out of college.  This could be fixed if every sport had 1 year guaranteed contracts, play well, get paid, don’t play well you find another team for probably less money.

Man, wouldn’t that be something?Performance based pay. 
 

That reminds me, are the Mets done paying Bobby Bonilla yet!?😂

 

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I don’t think there’s a lot of middle ground opinion on this one Chi.  People seem to feel pretty strongly, one side or another. 

 

 

 

... LOL, aint that today's 'Murica. I certainly understand and respect you guys opinions, especially if you look at it like a sport. But I look at the NFL like Big Biz and it is always about the money.