Role of marker

[rogolf]

I don’t like what the AJGA promotes. It doesn’t bother me wrt a marker’s responsibilities, but do find it to be encouraging poor etiquette. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

I don’t like what the AJGA promotes. It doesn’t bother me wrt a marker’s responsibilities, but do find it to be encouraging poor etiquette. 

 

I agree. That practice is not what golf is about. But that is USA.

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I agree. That practice is not what golf is about. But that is USA.

It’s bigger than the USA, many foreign players are also involved. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I don’t like what the AJGA promotes. It doesn’t bother me wrt a marker’s responsibilities, but do find it to be encouraging poor etiquette. 

 

As you know, I've reffed them for years. It's a compromise that gets them around in 4:20 and in before dark. Though once those talented kids get off to university, the coach's challenge is to turn 'em into 5:30 players who won't repair their divots. 

 

As to the etiquette of it, I've yet to see anyone take offense. I don't think scoring suffers and ready golf becomes a way of life for these players.

[MountainKing]

When playing competitive no way I'm watching my playing partners every move, I'm focused on what I'm doing.  It's not the markers job to police somebody's every move, and in my experience it's fairly obvious when cheating is going on.  Generally this happens when the player ends up in a hazard, or well offline, at which point you do pay a bit of attention and even question things if they aren't calling you over for help.   Even the biggest cheat isn't going to hit one down the fairway, knock it on the green and claim a 3 after 2 putting.

[kitkatz]

16 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 I'm focused on what I'm doing.  

I am the original poster and have really enjoyed this discussion - thanks all

A few people have said something about focusing on their own game. I could suggest/assert (maybe open for discussion), that one's role in the field is more than just as a single competitor and that one has a role in protecting the field and thus it is necessary to focus on both your game and what the player you are marking is doing

[mark m]

Ask your friend:

 

1. He is in a stroke play comp at your club. In a threesome. He is keeping the card for a player whose 4th putt ends up on edge of the hole. He does not hole out, but picks it up and says “5.” Your friend notices the 3rd player has his back turned and is already walking to the next tee. What does he do?

 

2. Same comp. His player tees up in front of the markers. Your friend notices it right away. Does say something? If so, when?

 

3. His player is in some longer grass and says he is going to identify his ball. He lifts it without marking and replaces it. What does your friend do?

 

Ask him to think about his approach and maybe he will reconsider how attentive he is(?) You don’t have to stalk someone to have a basic understanding of the number of strokes played. If you are paying no attention, I don’t why you would sign the card. In my experience most of the problems like the ones above happen at the league/club level. At the state/regional level there is typically more attention paid with staff around, etc., and things operate at a higher level. And everyone including the competitors know it.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

I don’t like what the AJGA promotes. It doesn’t bother me wrt a marker’s responsibilities, but do find it to be encouraging poor etiquette. 

 

I don't "love" it either but as has been said, 5+ hour rounds are also bad.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

It’s bigger than the USA, many foreign players are also involved. 

 

But the venue is always in US, right?

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

As you know, I've reffed them for years. It's a compromise that gets them around in 4:20 and in before dark.

 

We tend to get them out of the course under 4:30 unless the circumstanses are really bad. The AJGA practice does not seem to have a crucial effect.

[sui generis]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

The AJGA practice does not seem to have a crucial effect.

 

Oh, you have AJGA in Finland? What are their procedures?

[MountainKing]

14 hours ago, kitkatz said:

I am the original poster and have really enjoyed this discussion - thanks all

A few people have said something about focusing on their own game. I could suggest/assert (maybe open for discussion), that one's role in the field is more than just as a single competitor and that one has a role in protecting the field and thus it is necessary to focus on both your game and what the player you are marking is doing

 

Like I said in my post - most events I personally play in, you know when you need to divert your attention a bit.  Maybe in events involving higher handicappers more attention is required as more shots end up offline and more opportunity to shave strokes.  Yes it is a markers job to validate a correct score, but it's ultimately up to the player to make sure they're signing a correct scorecard, and if the marker isn't in agreement they shouldn't be attesting the score and at that point the committee can police it.

[MountainKing]

14 hours ago, mark m said:

Ask your friend:

 

1. He is in a stroke play comp at your club. In a threesome. He is keeping the card for a player whose 4th putt ends up on edge of the hole. He does not hole out, but picks it up and says “5.” Your friend notices the 3rd player has his back turned and is already walking to the next tee. What does he do?

 

2. Same comp. His player tees up in front of the markers. Your friend notices it right away. Does say something? If so, when?

 

3. His player is in some longer grass and says he is going to identify his ball. He lifts it without marking and replaces it. What does your friend do?

 

Ask him to think about his approach and maybe he will reconsider how attentive he is(?) You don’t have to stalk someone to have a basic understanding of the number of strokes played. If you are paying no attention, I don’t why you would sign the card. In my experience most of the problems like the ones above happen at the league/club level. At the state/regional level there is typically more attention paid with staff around, etc., and things operate at a higher level. And everyone including the competitors know it.

 

What events are people playing in where this is a regular thing?  I've played in hundreds, maybe thousands of tournaments in my life (including ajga that requires you to go to the next tee when you hole out) and have never witnessed or heard of somebody doing number 1, only seen #2 happen a couple times and it was called out before the stroke was played.   As far as #3 goes - if somebody is going to do that, they're going to do that and it's going to be hard to prevent it or prove it unless you're stalking the person.  I don't do league/club stuff/handicapped events, so maybe that's where this happens?  99.9% of the players I've gone up against you never need to worry about, and word gets out pretty quick in the circles about guys who might get a little sloppy with rules.

[mark m]

4 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

What events are people playing in where this is a regular thing?  I've played in hundreds, maybe thousands of tournaments in my life (including ajga that requires you to go to the next tee when you hole out) and have never witnessed or heard of somebody doing number 1, only seen #2 happen a couple times and it was called out before the stroke was played.   As far as #3 goes - if somebody is going to do that, they're going to do that and it's going to be hard to prevent it or prove it unless you're stalking the person.  I don't do league/club stuff/handicapped events, so maybe that's where this happens?  99.9% of the players I've gone up against you never need to worry about, and word gets out pretty quick in the circles about guys who might get a little sloppy with rules.

I mentioned where I have seen the most issues - league/club play. You say you don’t have experience in those areas(?)

I should also mention I have played in state events and no handicap interclub matches for 30 years. I talk to the players in other teams about their club events. Successful formats, group games, sandbagging issues, and so on. Many, like me, have been involved in club leadership. I have pretty good understanding of some of these issues. 

 

Not holing out: 

 

Some of the problems happen because guys carry over their bad habits from “casual” rounds into a comp. The most extreme was one older guy who actually refused to hold out on a few holes and was DQ’d. It’s unfortunate. This issue also led to 4-man team events being cancelled from 9-hole league play. People can choose their own groups, and because the course is full and play often slow, groups waiting to play from the fairway were witnessing players not holing out. But then winning. For the past few years, it’s all individual or 2-man formats. I don’t participate in the 9-hole league, but the Committee guys say they have had numerous problems and they are constantly sending out email reminders on the rules and pace of play.

 

In regards to teeing up in front, I would say something right away as well. It can happen. But this was a question for the OP’s friend. Would he say something? I am not sure he would. 

As for the last one, perhaps you were helping him locate it and you found the ball. You would be right there. Again, this is not directed at you, but directed at those who are afraid to say or do anything. They basically give a Sgt Schultz defense, but then may complain later in the bar. 
 

On that front, the leading threesome in a CC: 2 of the guys were close friends. Played a lot of golf together, often as partners. They like to talk clubs to play, particularly on par 3’s. Stuff like this happens at the club level. And some fellow competitors don’t say anything, but leave mad. It’s unfortunate. 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by mark m

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

I've played in hundreds, maybe thousands of tournaments in my life 

 

Wow. Respect.

[MountainKing]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Wow. Respect.

 

I was pretty deep into from about 10 until 26/27 and then a good handful since then. Probably not thousand actual events now that I think about it, but for sure rounds would probably be that number.

[MountainKing]

40 minutes ago, mark m said:

I mentioned where I have seen the most issues - league/club play. You say you don’t have experience in those areas(?)

I should also mention I have played in state events and no handicap interclub matches for 30 years. I talk to the players in other teams about their club events. Successful formats, group games, sandbagging issues, and so on. Many, like me, have been involved in club leadership. I have pretty good understanding of some of these issues. 

 

Not holing out: 

 

Some of the problems happen because guys carry over their bad habits from “casual” rounds into a comp. The most extreme was one older guy who actually refused to hold out on a few holes and was DQ’d. It’s unfortunate. This issue also led to 4-man team events being cancelled from 9-hole league play. People can choose their own groups, and because the course is full and play often slow, groups waiting to play from the fairway were witnessing players not holing out. But then winning. For the past few years, it’s all individual or 2-man formats. I don’t participate in the 9-hole league, but the Committee guys say they have had numerous problems and they are constantly sending out email reminders on the rules and pace of play.

 

In regards to teeing up in front, I would say something right away as well. It can happen. But this was a question for the OP’s friend. Would he say something? I am not sure he would. 

As for the last one, perhaps you were helping him locate it and you found the ball. You would be right there. Again, this is not directed at you, but directed at those who are afraid to say or do anything. They basically give a Sgt Schultz defense, but then may complain later in the bar. 
 

On that front, the leading threesome in a CC: 2 of the guys were close friends. Played a lot of golf together, often as partners. They like to talk clubs to play, particularly on par 3’s. Stuff like this happens at the club level. And some fellow competitors don’t say anything, but leave mad. It’s unfortunate. 

 

 

No, I don't do club championships, or anything involving handicapping.  Some of it is because the few occasions I did it felt like a circus/gossip fest and maybe that's because of some of the stuff you mention.    I've done a variety of city championship events, but most of my tournament play were state level/national level/mini tours etc, or these days when I get the itch I'll hit up the am tours. Not to say cheating doesn't happen (hell we had a big one  come out a few weeks ago), but 99% of the guys out there in those type of events want to be respected and known for their game, not be that guy everybody talks about. In fact most cases in those events, guys tend to be overly cautious with things.   Not sure why that changes when you get down to the club/league level.

[Mr. Bean]

41 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

I was pretty deep into from about 10 until 26/27 and then a good handful since then.

 

I do not understand. Would you care to explain what you mean?

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not understand. Would you care to explain what you mean?

 

Silly you . . . it's the math equation that yields "thousands." 😉

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Silly you . . . it's the math equation that yields "thousands." 😉

 

Must be US humour as I do not understand. No problem, to everyone their own.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

I do not understand. Would you care to explain what you mean?

 

50 tournaments a year for 16 or 17 years plus 10 every year since then for 10 years is… still short of 1000 tournaments, but that's what he was trying to say. Almost surely not even 1,000 let alone "thousands."

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not understand. Would you care to explain what you mean?

 

I basically lived in tournament golf from the age of 10 until my later 20's when I finally realized I wasn't good and needed to stop. 

[larrybud]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:23 PM, kitkatz said:

thanks, yes, i saw that but that does not really help with how closely they have to be aware of each/most shots played

 

How would one "certify" a score if they have no clue what that score is? The answer to that pretty much answers your question. 

[larrybud]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:38 PM, sui generis said:

 

Generally, the Committee would not approve of this. What juniors in the AJGA are taught is: "The first player to hole out should go toward the next tee and be ready to be the first to tee off. The second player to finish should replace the flagstick."

 

Seems backwards to me. Why shouldn't the first player to hole out replace the stick? The first player to hole out doesn't mean he has honors on the next hole.

[sui generis]

40 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Seems backwards to me. Why shouldn't the first player to hole out replace the stick? The first player to hole out doesn't mean he has honors on the next hole.

 

Their procedures are tried and true. Except for their Wynham Cup all play is stroke play with "ready golf." There are many other pieces to the pace of play puzzle and they get 'em around in 4:15 - 4:30 all the time. The kids walk, there are no caddies and they generally play walkable older courses. 

[kiwigolf72]

the role of the marker is to protect the field.

[antip]

13 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

the role of the marker is to protect the field.

That is actually the role shared by everybody in the field, it is not limited to the marker, nor is the marker's responsibility for this any different to any other player in the field. The ONLY thing the marker is uniquely responsible for is certifying a score.

[kiwigolf72]

the marker needs to ensure that whoever he is marking for follows the rules and the score is correct, that what protecting the field means.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, kiwigolf72 said:

the marker needs to ensure that whoever he is marking for follows the rules and the score is correct, that what protecting the field means.

The marker is not a referee.  The marker's role (stroke play only) is defined in Rule 3.3b and the Definitions.

Edited August 29, 2023 by rogolf

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, kiwigolf72 said:

the marker needs to ensure that whoever he is marking for follows the rules and the score is correct, that what protecting the field means.

The marker is not a referee; he  cannot ensure that the player follows the rules; he has no authority over the player;  and nowhere in 3.3b(1) is he given such a responsibility or authority.  There is only a procedure for him to refuse to certify a score he believes to be wrong.