Older with back issues

[Bsudgolf]

Have watched some videos on Swings thats better on the back that still produces power for older people with back issues. I stand up out of my shots alot to reduce pressure in my lower back, While I do still get the ball out a good distance (245 driver), (145 7i) I need a swing that's better on my back. I love the concept of Wayne D and also Moe Norman. Not sure which is better but I think the wide Open turning the right foot in of Wayne D would be a much easier Swing than Moe Norman. Any thoughts??

[Lefthook]

It would be easier if you posted a video and were more specific about your back issues.

 

Having said that … what you say about lower back pressure may be a swing fault …. swaying instead of turning. It usually is.

 

I used to have back issues… right down there on the lowest vertebraes. I have spent a substantial amount on chiropractors through the years. But the golf swing was always good to my back. 

[Bsudgolf]

1 minute ago, Lefthook said:

It would be easier if you posted a video and were more specific about your back issues.

 

Having said that … what you say about lower back pressure may be a swing fault …. swaying instead of turning. It usually is.

 

I used to have back issues… right down there on the lowest vertebraes. I have spent a substantial amount on chiropractors through the years. But the golf swing was always good to my back. 

I don't have any videos, I have lower back issues, degenerative disc and a bulging disc. I do not sway with the back swing I rotate but I do slide my Left hip forward when I start my downswing. I get stuck inside quite often 

[E2EGOLFER53]

It all depends on just how extreme you are willing to change to protect your back.  I have 11 levels of my spine fused 5 in the lower spine and 6 in my neck.  I play golf well using my own version of the E2E swing taught by Jack Kuykendall. Other golfers who play with me or see me playing never even notice that I don't swing traditionally mostly they just say "nice shot"  here is Jack's web site https://www.kggolf.net/

 

You can take my advice with a grain of salt it makes no difference to me.  I just feel that it is my duty as a fellow bad back golfer to answer other golfers who ask for advice.

 

Good Luck

E2E Golfer

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, Bsudgolf said:

Have watched some videos on Swings thats better on the back that still produces power for older people with back issues. I stand up out of my shots alot to reduce pressure in my lower back, While I do still get the ball out a good distance (245 driver), (145 7i) I need a swing that's better on my back. I love the concept of Wayne D and also Moe Norman. Not sure which is better but I think the wide Open turning the right foot in of Wayne D would be a much easier Swing than Moe Norman. Any thoughts??

Back issues often result from a weak core.  I am over 70, still play to 4, and hit the ball far.  I owe that to strength and solid core. 

[Bsudgolf]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Back issues often result from a weak core.  I am over 70, still play to 4, and hit the ball far.  I owe that to strength and solid core. 

I play to about that myself. From 120yds in is where I shine. Just wish I could hit it further without so much strain on my back. I had back problems long before my golf swing 

[golfarb1]

Most golfers who develop back issues have problems with their lumbar or lower spine . 
The facet joints( connections between the bones of the spine )  of the lumbar spine are aligned more  vertically which allows extension / flexion , but very little rotation , while the facet joints of the thoracic ( middle spine ) are aligned at an angle , which encourages rotation . Golfers who lack sufficient conditioning or whose postural/swing mistakes encourage more rotation in the lumbar spine rather than the thoracic spine are at higher risk for lumbar spine problems. 
Since you already have developed back problems , you goal now  should be to minimize rotation in the   spine  as a whole and encourage more lateral movement of the pelvis .  
Try some simple setup changes to discourage rotation and encourage lateral 

motion 

First , flare both feet out ( like a duck ) about 15 degrees . 
Second , take  a wider stance . Wider stances encourage more lateral movement . 

During your swing , let your head float a little  laterally  like Rocco Mediate . 
Make sure that your wrists are fully set at the top of your swing .

Reduce the length of your backswing . The shorter the backswing , the less chance for errors of any type . 
Accept that your power will be generated NOT via torso rotation , but more through lateral motion and the lever of your wrists . 

[Bsudgolf]

21 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Most golfers who develop back issues have problems with their lumbar or lower spine . 
The facet joints( connections between the bones of the spine )  of the lumbar spine are aligned more  vertically which allows extension / flexion , but very little rotation , while the facet joints of the thoracic ( middle spine ) are aligned at an angle , which encourages rotation . Golfers who lack sufficient conditioning or whose postural/swing mistakes encourage more rotation in the lumbar spine rather than the thoracic spine are at higher risk for lumbar spine problems. 
Since you already have developed back problems , you goal now  should be to minimize rotation in the   spine  as a whole and encourage more lateral movement of the pelvis .  
Try some simple setup changes to discourage rotation and encourage lateral 

motion 

First , flare both feet out ( like a duck ) about 15 degrees . 
Second , take  a wider stance . Wider stances encourage more lateral movement . 

During your swing , let your head float a little  laterally  like Rocco Mediate . 
Make sure that your wrists are fully set at the top of your swing .

Reduce the length of your backswing . The shorter the backswing , the less chance for errors of any type . 
Accept that your power will be generated NOT via torso rotation , but more through lateral motion and the lever of your wrists . 

When you say lateral what exactly are you meaning? My hips moving forward instead of turning? One thing to I think when I setup to the ball I'm bending over too much 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Bsudgolf

[Fuscinator]

You might take a look at Marcus Edblad's Youtube channel. He's a long drive guy who promotes a hands and arms swing in which the body's turn is more an accommodation of the arms than a driver of the swing.

[orr444]

Jimmy Ballard!

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, Bsudgolf said:

When you say lateral what exactly are you meaning? My hips moving forward instead of turning? One thing to I think when I setup to the ball I'm bending over too much 

Lateral going back -away from the target 

Lateral going down -toward the target 

One caveat-lateral movement going back 

should never result in your weight moving to the outside of your trail foot going back ,

The wider stance and flared trail foot should help to avoid that . 

I have not seen your setup but below is Rory with a driver -an example of a well balanced setup .He is DEFINITELY NOT. Bent over too much .

Because of less length and the different lie of an iron he naturally will be bent over more  with an iron than with a driver. 

Note that his spine is “neutral “ with a small amount of curvature in his lower back -a small amount of curvature in his middle back 

and a small amount of curvature in his neck .
 

A large amount of curvature in the mid spine  ( thoracic spine) which will result in a more bent over position at setup will make it more difficult to rotate your mid spine going back and could cause incorrect rotation in the lower back . 

A vertical line touching the front of his trail knee will intersect his shoelaces 

His butt  extends slightly behind his heels 

His upper arm is a little beyond vertical -with irons it is vertical 

The butt of the grip points approximately at his belly button 

His chin is over his toes 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by golfarb1

[Soloman1]

Rory has to be the worst model for old guys with bad backs.

Let's get Tiger in here, too, especially in his prime. He's alway a good comparison for everyone to use.

Just swing like them.

 

Back to being serious.

 

Disc problems are hard. Usually there is a bias rotating one way. Norman's swing is more arm and horizontally driven. And uses more hand action for speed. It can be effective because the trail foot is kept down and there is less rotation and separation of torso and pelvis. Better for impingement on the lead side.

 

Rotating the trail foot outward allows more rotation on the backswing, but may be more painful with added stress if the impingement is on the trail side.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Soloman1

[Bsudgolf]

2 hours ago, orr444 said:

Jimmy Ballard!

Isn't the Ballard swing more of a Single Plane swing Like Moe Norman?

[st1800e]

9 hours ago, Bsudgolf said:

I do slide my Left hip forward when I start my downswing.

Therein lies the problem.....I used to do that even when I was a 2hcp, 15 years ago.   after a steep decline about 2 years ago, significant lower back, neck, shoulder arm and upper back pain, I was referred to an MSK specialist.     I've had multiple lumbar and cervical cortisone shots, facet joints and nerve blocks.  All giving a variety of relief and duration.  

Finally had 8 lumbar and 4 cervical nerves ablated.   Wow.  But as my MSK specialist said, we're treating the symptoms, not the cause.   

 

In addition I started up with a fitness trainer focussing on core, flexibility and strength.  At the same time I started golf training with a TPI certified instructor. The first session I was astonished at the video of my swing, I'd made so many compensations for my pain issues I looked like, well, not very good. Reverse weight shift, standing up, and lots of other things, lost my short game too.   I was a mess.

 

With all this training, instruction and medical treatment I've come down from a 13 to an 8. May never get back to low single digits, (I've lost distance over the last 10 years) but I hit a lot of good shots and occasionally a great score. And more importantly feel better and sleep better.    

 

Its all worth the effort.  

 

You're getting lots of anecdotal advice here, but suggest you look for help with an MSK specialist and a good instructor.     I'd recommend a TPI (Titlesit performance Institute) instructor. Their program meshes well with golf specific fitness training.

 

Good luck.   

 

 

 

 

[Bsudgolf]

7 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Therein lies the problem.....I used to do that even when I was a 2hcp, 15 years ago.   after a steep decline about 2 years ago, significant lower back, neck, shoulder arm and upper back pain, I was referred to an MSK specialist.     I've had multiple lumbar and cervical cortisone shots, facet joints and nerve blocks.  All giving a variety of relief and duration.  

Finally had 8 lumbar and 4 cervical nerves ablated.   Wow.  But as my MSK specialist said, we're treating the symptoms, not the cause.   

 

In addition I started up with a fitness trainer focussing on core, flexibility and strength.  At the same time I started golf training with a TPI certified instructor. The first session I was astonished at the video of my swing, I'd made so many compensations for my pain issues I looked like, well, not very good. Reverse weight shift, standing up, and lots of other things, lost my short game too.   I was a mess.

 

With all this training, instruction and medical treatment I've come down from a 13 to an 8. May never get back to low single digits, (I've lost distance over the last 10 years) but I hit a lot of good shots and occasionally a great score. And more importantly feel better and sleep better.    

 

Its all worth the effort.  

 

You're getting lots of anecdotal advice here, but suggest you look for help with an MSK specialist and a good instructor.     I'd recommend a TPI (Titlesit performance Institute) instructor. Their program meshes well with golf specific fitness training.

 

Good luck.   

 

 

 

 

Now when I say slide forward I'm not talking about toward the ball, I'm talking weight shift but Slide Left hip toward the target. Just making sure I made that clear

[st1800e]

2 minutes ago, Bsudgolf said:

Now when I say slide forward I'm not talking about toward the ball, I'm talking weight shift but Slide Left hip toward the target. Just making sure I made that clear

That was clear.   Slide left hip? it should be a turn, not a slide, and post up on your left leg (for RH golfer).     

[Bsudgolf]

4 minutes ago, st1800e said:

That was clear.   Slide left hip? it should be a turn, not a slide, and post up on your left leg (for RH golfer).     

Yeah after impact I'm kinda in that Reverse K type position 

[st1800e]

3 minutes ago, Bsudgolf said:

Yeah after impact I'm kinda in that Reverse K type position 

My back hurts just reading this. 😉

[Bsudgolf]

2 minutes ago, st1800e said:

My back hurts just reading this. 😉

Yeah I've just got to find a Swing where I can just turn back and turn through. If I could get Rocco Swing Down I think that would help me a lot! It just looks so simple

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, Bsudgolf said:

If I could get Rocco Swing Down

Seriously, Good luck fixing your back with online videos.  

[OldCuss]

17 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Disc problems are hard.

Ain't that the truth! Lower back used to be an issue for me due largely to core - a bit big in the middle. I took care of that - via weight and conditioning - but the disc and nerve problem I have higher up, well, it's a problem that proper weight and conditioning does not sufficiently address, but I wish it did. Certainly don't swing out of my shoes, preferring instead a slower and smooth rhythmic swing - as best I am able, that is. Give up some distance but the alternative is no distance due to inability to play. Happy, however, there are those that don't have this problem. Now about orthostatic hypotension ...another gift for some of us older coots.

 

Old Cuss

[getitdaily]

Want to get things easier on a bad back...

 

Non-swing

1. You have to exercise. Lighter weight stuff and a good bit of core work. Lose weight if you're more than 15 pounds over weight.

2. Stretch and stay mobile

3. Take glucosamine and chondroiten

4. After you play, ice down the area where you experience stiffness

 

Swing stuff

1. Watch videos from grf golf (formerly zen golf mechanics) and start to experiment with earlier pressure into your lead side. 

2. Repeat #1

3. Repeat #1 some more

[Petethreeput]

Low mobility in the lower back.  2 micros L5, one L4 most recently (6 yrs ago).  Also have a way inside swing.  Hit the ball about like you.

 

What I learned on my own.

I chose to open my stance so I could get to my left side without causing as much stress on the back.  You could close it like Rocco and cut the follow through.

Splay the toes open at address so I could rotate some.

 

This year I took lessons to get rid of the 25 yard “draw.”

 

Widen the stance.

Posture is king, really straighten up.

 

I also did a TPI and found out a lot about body mechanics and some of my weaknesses.  Very enlightening.

 

Lastly I try to stay in shape and lost 20 pounds in 2 years via cardio and lifting.

 

My advice, either see a pro and explain the issues in your spine or dig it out like I did and realize you aren’t going to score for about 2 years while you learn to compensate of all the oddities you come up with.

[indianagolf2]

Chris Como does online lessons and he worked with Jayson day who had multiple physical ailments. 

[Bsudgolf]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:15 PM, Fuscinator said:

You might take a look at Marcus Edblad's Youtube channel. He's a long drive guy who promotes a hands and arms swing in which the body's turn is more an accommodation of the arms than a driver of the swing.

@FuscinatorThanks for Mentioning Edblad! I really loved the look of his swing and I been watching those vids religiously. The last 2 days been working on what he teaches and must say been hitting it much much better with LESS TORQUE on my back! Had some of longest drives I've seen in a while in the 270-280 range. I think this is definitely something I'm going to continue to work on cause it feels much better on the back but I've gained some distance with driver atleast. The irons is what going to take some getting use to. 

[indianagolf2]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:32 PM, Bsudgolf said:

Yeah I've just got to find a Swing where I can just turn back and turn through. If I could get Rocco Swing Down I think that would help me a lot! It just looks so simple

Contact Chris como...he worked with tiger and Jayson day. .you can have a phone call with him before a video review. 

[Fuscinator]

13 hours ago, Bsudgolf said:

@FuscinatorThanks for Mentioning Edblad! I really loved the look of his swing and I been watching those vids religiously. The last 2 days been working on what he teaches and must say been hitting it much much better with LESS TORQUE on my back! Had some of longest drives I've seen in a while in the 270-280 range. I think this is definitely something I'm going to continue to work on cause it feels much better on the back but I've gained some distance with driver atleast. The irons is what going to take some getting use to. 

For me, the key for making Edblad's approach work, especially with irons, was his idea of "hitting it to Heaven". I think what it does, at least in my case, is gets me to 'release under' instead of crossing over. It really keeps me from pull-hooking the carp out of everything. 

[AnthonyC143]

Wow this thread has so much information for me to try.  Thanks everyone!  Keep it coming.

[rd1959]

What it sounds like, to me, you would be better off concentrating on improving the condition of your back, then worry about finding the right swing right now. 
I too have back issues (2 cervical degenerated discs, 3 lumbar degenerated discs, and 1 dessicated thoracic disc). What helped me was chiropractic adjustments, inversion (hanging upside down) and, like Pepperturbo mentioned, strengthening your core muscles.  

[AnthonyC143]

I keep my core strong, decompression therapy every two weeks, and swim.  My job hates my body, but I love golf and need to stay in it!