Better make rate from close range or 3putt avoidance ?

[PracticeSwinger]

Title says it all; but for a bit of details, I've ran the numbers on my game and 3putt about once a round. Now, I've looked at the data and if my make rate from 4-10ft would go up 10% it would be equivalent to never 3putting up until the 50ft+ range - so basically a toss up from an analytical point of view. So let's go hypothetical here and say you can game a blade that increases your make rate from up close or a mallet that makes distance control, especially from long range, pretty automatic - on which side would you lean?... any compound effect I'm not taking into the equation (mallet making sure the 2nd putt is a gimmie or the fact that you wouldn't mind the blade leaving a few short since you know you'll convert)? Others : confidence? collateral effect from missing a short one?

Edited October 16, 2023 by Varry_Hardon
typo

[me05501]

If you only average one 3 putt per round you do not need to change your putting IMO. Doesn't seem to be a lot of upside there even at your index level. 

 

Look at the professional stats from 4-10' and compare to your own. Chances are they are putting on better greens than you are too. 

 

Sounds like improving your proximity to the hole might be a more worthwhile project.  

[PracticeSwinger]

5 minutes ago, me05501 said:

If you only average one 3 putt per round you do not need to change your putting IMO. Doesn't seem to be a lot of upside there even at your index level. 

 

Look at the professional stats from 4-10' and compare to your own. Chances are they are putting on better greens than you are too. 

 

Sounds like improving your proximity to the hole might be a more worthwhile project.  

Agree 100%. Was just trying to look at this in isolation : there a gap in make rate from 4-10ft compared to pros, that's for sure, but proximity to the hole from 150-175-200yds is where most of the gap is coming from. Just looking to pick WRXers brains to see if they've experienced the same with respect to putting, process / mindset

[wagolfer7]

Personally I'd always go with the better 4-10 foot putter.

 

Even being a good lag putter - there are days, where your speed gauge is a little off and leave them a little longer away than you usually do.  Ability to be confident in closer ranges frees you up in my opinion. 

 

There's always a trade-off in there somewhere.  I always felt my speed was better with blades than mallets in the 15 foot or less range, in terms of trying to die at the cup for downhill sliders.  But I felt more confident with a mallet in that 3-5 foot range with touchy / bending putts.      

 

I've been putting with a mallet now for 5 years and I now am comfortable with that mallet in every part of the game. 

 

I think bottom line - if you keep the same putter - over time you'll get better at it's weakness area that you feel like you do better with a blade right now.    

[getitdaily]

What issue is predominant on your 3 putts

 

Pace

Line

Aim

[PracticeSwinger]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

What issue is predominant on your 3 putts

 

Pace

Line

Aim

As mentioned, I’ve got about one per round and it’s, on average, from 36ish feet - so basically once a round a combo of bad read, bad stroke, bad pace that leaves the 35 footer to 6 feet (usually short when it’s downhill on the last part) and thus a more complicated 2nd putt than it should be

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

As mentioned, I’ve got about one per round and it’s, on average, from 36ish feet - so basically once a round a combo of bad read, bad stroke, bad pace that leaves the 35 footer to 6 feet (usually short when it’s downhill on the last part) and thus a more complicated 2nd putt than it should be

Spend 85% of your putting practice time inside 10 feet.

 

Spend the other 15% on speed and distance control from 25+.

 

No need to only focus on 1 when you can do both very easily.

 

Do you use the line on the ball? Surprisingly, I found that from 35'+, the line really helps take away any aim issues. May be of help...

[tatertot]

If you were a better 4-10 foot putter ... Wouldn't that lower your 3 putts?

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, getitdaily said:

Spend 85% of your putting practice time inside 10 feet.

 

Spend the other 15% on speed and distance control from 25+.

 

No need to only focus on 1 when you can do both very easily.

 

Do you use the line on the ball? Surprisingly, I found that from 35'+, the line really helps take away any aim issues. May be of help...

Thanks - my practice split time looks a lot like this (even more so on shorter putts here up north with inside practice)… and I’m not using the ball on the line for longer range putts; interesting, there might be something to this - will look into it!

[PracticeSwinger]

Just now, tatertot said:

If you were a better 4-10 foot putter ... Wouldn't that lower your 3 putts?

Correct - and that’s why I stated initially on the compound effect, and trying to be ‘tour like’ from shorter range may be the way to go

[tatertot]

2 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Correct - and that’s why I stated initially on the compound effect, and trying to be ‘tour like’ from shorter range may be the way to go

Snedeker goes as far to say the vast majority of his practice is from 5 feet. He says if he knows he can make 5 footers, his stroke is good enough to extend out, and he'll have confidence to go for putts, knowing he can make the comebackers.

[MelloYello]

I don't know how exactly practicing lag putting would be different from practicing 4-10' putts aside from just rehearsing from longer range. But to me, it would be really easy to get sloppy if "practicing lag putting" just meant hitting putts to targets that were 40-ft away or whatever. 

 

Using reality as a reference, I don't think I've ever met someone who was really good from 4-10' (above average good) who wasn't by extension also good from longer ranges. Being able to make a comparatively large % of your 4-10' putts is generally a sign that you're a very good putter which means you're making the tap-ins and pretty useful at long range, too. 

 

In a very real sense, lag putting is easy because it's just about speed and aimpoint. When you're talking about 4-10' putts dropping you have to be really precise in your start-line, not something that's always so critical when you're willing to accept a miss 2- or 3-ft left/right of your target on a lag. 

 

Most of the time 3-putts (for reasonably good putters who are used to practicing) have more to do with situational things: having to putt through the fringe, up a massive slope to a higher tier they never practice, a random 60-footer, etc.  Those kind of 3-putts have more to do with ball-striking and not leaving yourself in bad spots.  

 

The kind of 3-putts you want to avoid are the stupid mistakes that practice won't do much to cure. I always feel those are more to do with putting IQ, experience on a given green and taking sufficient time to do a 360 when necessary. 

 

 

.

Edited October 17, 2023 by MelloYello

[PracticeSwinger]

11 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Snedeker goes as far to say the vast majority of his practice is from 5 feet. He says if he knows he can make 5 footers, his stroke is good enough to extend out, and he'll have confidence to go for putts, knowing he can make the comebackers.

So going back to my hypothetical question you’d lean toward the blade where you know everything drops from 5ft in - and by extension serve as 3putt avoidance even though this blade will leave you more testers than the ultimate distance control mallet… of course It’s now as black and white, just for the sake of discussion 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

15 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I don't know how exactly practicing lag putting would be different from practicing 4-10' putts aside from just rehearsing from longer range. But to me, it would be really easy to get sloppy if "practicing lag putting" just meant hitting putts to targets that were 40-ft away or whatever. 

 

Using reality as a reference, I don't think I've ever met someone who was really good from 4-10' (above average good) who wasn't by extension also good from longer ranges. Being able to make a comparatively large % of your 4-10' putts is generally a sign that you're a very good putter which means you're making the tap-ins and pretty useful at long range, too. 

 

In a very real sense, lag putting is easy because it's just about speed and aimpoint. When you're talking about 4-10' putts dropping you have to be really precise in your start-line, not something that's always so critical when you're willing to accept a miss 2- or 3-ft left/right of your target on a lag. 

 

Most of the time 3-putts (for reasonably good putters who are used to practicing) have more to do with situational things: having to putt through the fringe, up a massive slope to a higher tier they never practice, a random 60-footer, etc.  Those kind of 3-putts have more to do with ball-striking and not leaving yourself in bad spots.  

 

The kind of 3-putts you want to avoid are the stupid mistakes that practice won't do much to cure. I always feel those are more to do with putting IQ, experience on a given green and taking sufficient time to do a 360 when necessary. 

 

 

.

Agree 100%. I’m a decent putter; 31 putts, make rate an ok gap under the pros from short-middle range, 1 3putt per round - and was just trying to figure out if, in isolation, there was a putting low hanging fruit… while it’s probably more of a proximity approach issue from longer range, that leaks into putting

[tatertot]

42 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

So going back to my hypothetical question you’d lean toward the blade where you know everything drops from 5ft in - and by extension serve as 3putt avoidance even though this blade will leave you more testers than the ultimate distance control mallet… of course It’s now as black and white, just for the sake of discussion 

 

Yeppers.

[SNIPERBBB]

Obviously, I dont want to miss anything inside 5 feet. So in your hypothetical I would take the blade but I dont really believe either style putter has a lot of effect on on make range. When I look at a putter, I care more about the feel of it and how it presents itself on address. I dont like seeing the face of the putter at address which tends to make most putters look closed and drives me crazy because I hate closed faces!

[ShortGolfer]

I switched back to the Odyssey Indianapolis from the Two Ball Ten because I tested both after a season of using the Two Ball Ten and found my misses were closer to the hole for both near and far putts.

[nitram]

11 hours ago, tatertot said:

Snedeker goes as far to say the vast majority of his practice is from 5 feet. He says if he knows he can make 5 footers, his stroke is good enough to extend out, and he'll have confidence to go for putts, knowing he can make the comebackers.

And I agree with him 100%.

[me05501]

Sneds is right.

 

A lot of our issues around long putts are based on our fear of leaving it 5' short or blowing it 5' past the hole. The less scared we are of those putts the more we can trust ourselves with the longer ones. 

[PracticeSwinger]

Love it, seeing a trend emerge in the replies, makes total sense if you think about it, on the frequencies of those shots... if we look at our 1st putt length distribution, guessing we'd find that, loosely said:

• 35% (6 holes) in the somewhat makeable range, inside10
• 50% (9 holes) in the 'automatic' 2putt range, 10-30ft
• 15%  (3 holes) in the 3putt avoidance range -> that flows into the first bullet point

Be great inside 5, inside 10 and you're golden

[TourSpoon]

I have to agree with Sneds. And honestly 5 feet past is often better than 5 feet short unless the past has you putting downhill. I learned that past the hole is better in most cases so you can see the break coming back. 

 

I am a decent putter averaging 30.5 putts. I practice 3 feet, 6 feet, maybe throw in some 10 feet on occasion with the goal on make percentage. I will then hit some long putts with a goal of 2 putting (get ball into friendship circle). I feel that anything inside 3 feet is giving me a great chance because its the 3 footers I practice the most. 

[me05501]

My pro gave me a good drill for practicing lag putting.

 

He said to practice judging speed by rolling long putts toward the fringe of the putting green. The only goal is to have the ball come to rest as close as possible to the fringe.

 

Don't worry about a cup or any other directional target. The point is to let your mind learn to judge speed independent of a specific line. 

It's also a good pre-round shortcut for picking up the speed of the greens on a specific day or at a course you don't play very often. 

[wagolfer7]

3 minutes ago, me05501 said:

My pro gave me a good drill for practicing lag putting.

 

He said to practice judging speed by rolling long putts toward the fringe of the putting green. The only goal is to have the ball come to rest as close as possible to the fringe.

 

Don't worry about a cup or any other directional target. The point is to let your mind learn to judge speed independent of a specific line. 

It's also a good pre-round shortcut for picking up the speed of the greens on a specific day or at a course you don't play very often. 

 

I'm in line with the Snedeker routine.  I don't practice lag putting at all really.  I'm pretty limited these days on how much time I can practice.  So all my putting practice goes in that 4-7 feet range - starting with uphill straight, then move around to get breaking putts.  

 

I don't really think there's a better gauge than being able to make a 5-7 feet left to right breaking putt for a RH player.  If you can make 3 of those in a row - that's pretty good in my book.  Shows you are consistent with speed and line.  

 

I do feel like good putting in that range extends to longer putts.  I would say I'm a pretty good lag putter, without investing time in that area.  And if my lag putting is off, I'm really confident cleaning up 4 feet and in.      

[doctor220]

21 hours ago, tatertot said:

Snedeker goes as far to say the vast majority of his practice is from 5 feet. He says if he knows he can make 5 footers, his stroke is good enough to extend out, and he'll have confidence to go for putts, knowing he can make the comebackers.

I mean sure but statistically even tour pros miss quite often from 5 feet. If you’re consistently lagging to 5 feet you’re going to 3 putt often. 

both are very important but you can probably spend 80% of time on 10 feet and in 

tour pros are only 80% from 5 feet so if you hit it to 5 feet on every hole you’re going to average 3-4 putts a round at minimum and frankly it’s unlikely you will be as good as them from 5 feet and possibly not on greens as smooth. 
 

getting your lags to 3 feet instead of 5 feet is a substantial statistical difference in expected outcome 

Edited October 17, 2023 by doctor220

[doctor220]

Think it’s multi faceted . Work on speed control for lags, you will almost never misread a putt by multiple feet L-R wise and then work on face control for 10 feet and in , you will rarely substantially miss on speed for those. 

[PracticeSwinger]

19 hours ago, doctor220 said:

tour pros are only 80% from 5 feet so if you hit it to 5 feet on every hole you’re going to average 3-4 putts a round at minimum and frankly it’s unlikely you will be as good as them from 5 feet and possibly not on greens as smooth. 
 

getting your lags to 3 feet instead of 5 feet is a substantial statistical difference in expected outcome 

I'm with you, just that numbers wise you'd have to be really bad to leave everything at 5ft since your 1st putt distance distribution will probably be : 3 putts per round from 30+ish, 9 from the 10-30 range and 6 inside that ... if most of your 15-20 footers end up at 5 feet, you've got a bigger problem then your 5ft make rate.

[doctor220]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I'm with you, just that numbers wise you'd have to be really bad to leave everything at 5ft since your 1st putt distance distribution will probably be : 3 putts per round from 30+ish, 9 from the 10-30 range and 6 inside that ... if most of your 15-20 footers end up at 5 feet, you've got a bigger problem then your 5ft make rate.

Agreed and it’s def chicken vs egg where both are complementary but I think people understate the effect of being good at lag putting . Even going from averaging 4 ft to 3 ft on lags is a significant difference over a round. Def most of practice should be 10 and in but lag putting is next most important thing and something most ams suck at IMO.