Why is late wrist set a power leak?

[tthomasgolfer605]

Why is it that the two best players ever believed in a natural hinging of the wrists which appear to be later than someone like Faldo? 

[MonteScheinblum]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:27 AM, getitdaily said:

Nicklaus wasn't a late setter. Tiger definitely was...not sure if he still is, haven't paid attention to his swing in a while.

This is at least 10 years old and with a wood.  I wouldn’t call this late either.

[tthomasgolfer605]

9 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is at least 10 years old and with a wood.  I wouldn’t call this late either.

Hmm. I'd say he's a later than most setter of the wrists. 

 

[Rosco1216]

2 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Hmm. I'd say he's a later than most setter of the wrists. 

 

Not really. That still on your vid is closer to p2.5 than p3. At left arm parallel, he would still be similar to the top one Monty posted. Which is roughly 10* or so from being at a true 90*. That pretty standard as opposed to late. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Just now, Rosco1216 said:

Not really. That still on your vid is closer to p2.5 than p3. At left arm parallel, he would still be similar to the top one Monty posted. Which is roughly 10* or so from being at a true 90*. That pretty standard as opposed to late. 

It's a video not a still. Look again and tell me if he's fully hinged at left arm parallel. 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Why is it that the two best players ever believed in a natural hinging of the wrists 

One thing is for certain, these guys didn’t move the clubhead first. The shift to the trail side should happen before the hands take away the clubhead. Dr. Kwon who is probably the foremost expert on ground forces in the golf industry has a library of YouTube videos explaining this concept. AMG has a bunch talking about the same.

 

You can tell a talented golf athlete to take away the clubhead first and they might still shift first into the trail side to create the momentum to propel the golf club. If you tell a mid or high handicap to do it they will stand flat footed and take away the golf club without that shift. That’s why Kwon’s step drills are so helpful and why he drives home the importance about using the shift to create the momentum for the backswing. If you take away the clubhead first you cannot use that to your advantage. 

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

Not really. That still on your vid is closer to p2.5 than p3. At left arm parallel, he would still be similar to the top one Monty posted. Which is roughly 10* or so from being at a true 90*. That pretty standard as opposed to late. 

This is late and as in most swings with a late hinge, you get a long arms swing because the body needs more time to hinge.  When you can produce 130-150 mph of speed, you can easily recover from these two positions.  When you’re 80-100, not so much. 100-120…..it’s depends on the individual.  

[getitdaily]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

One thing is for certain, these guys didn’t move the clubhead first. The shift to the trail side should happen before the hands take away the clubhead. Dr. Kwon who is probably the foremost expert on ground forces in the golf industry has a library of YouTube videos explaining this concept. AMG has a bunch talking about the same.

 

You can tell a talented golf athlete to take away the clubhead first and they might still shift first into the trail side to create the momentum to propel the golf club. If you tell a mid or high handicap to do it they will stand flat footed and take away the golf club without that shift. That’s why Kwon’s step drills are so helpful and why he drives home the importance about using the shift to create the momentum for the backswing. If you take away the clubhead first you cannot use that to your advantage. 

The more I use the shift momentum, the more I have to feel the wrists hinge super early.

 

Feel...not real tho. On camera, there's literally no difference in my early set and my fault of a late set. But the feel of what I have to do to hit it well is to hinge really early. 

 

Now, I am also someone who has never had an issue with too much width. It's quite possible that my early set feel is simply making my trail arm work up quicker...who knows.

[tthomasgolfer605]

12 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

Not really. That still on your vid is closer to p2.5 than p3. At left arm parallel, he would still be similar to the top one Monty posted. Which is roughly 10* or so from being at a true 90*. That pretty standard as opposed to late. 

Better? 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

The more I use the shift momentum, the more I have to feel the wrists hinge super early.

 

Feel...not real tho. On camera, there's literally no difference in my early set and my fault of a late set. But the feel of what I have to do to hit it well is to hinge really early. 

 

Now, I am also someone who has never had an issue with too much width. It's quite possible that my early set feel is simply making my trail arm work up quicker...who knows.

Drew Cooper did a great video using swing catalyst data on how the force of movements of the club, hands and arms creates the shift.  I couldn’t find the link.

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is late and as in most swings with a late hinge, you get a long arms swing because the body needs more time to hinge.  When you can produce 130-150 mph of speed, you can easily recover from these two positions.  When you’re 80-100, not so much. 100-120…..it’s depends on the individual.  

Add some more flex in that trail elbow at p3 and he would be a lot closer to orthodox. I don’t know if a bunch more radial to get him to 90* is a great thing to add here 
 

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

The more I use the shift momentum, the more I have to feel the wrists hinge super early.

 

Feel...not real tho. On camera, there's literally no difference in my early set and my fault of a late set. But the feel of what I have to do to hit it well is to hinge really early. 

 

Now, I am also someone who has never had an issue with too much width. It's quite possible that my early set feel is simply making my trail arm work up quicker...who knows.

The important thing is the dynamics of the shift are already there. They aren’t always there in a mid or high cap. Maybe not even in a mid or low single digit. 

[Rosco1216]

10 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

It's a video not a still. Look again and tell me if he's fully hinged at left arm parallel. 

I said he’s not “fully hinged” to 90* at left arm parallel. That would be early. The pic Monte posted of Bryson is late. Tiger is in the middle. 

[getitdaily]

9 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Drew Cooper did a great video using swing catalyst data on how the force of movements of the club, hands and arms creates the shift.  I couldn’t find the link.

You and I briefly chatted about that before...basically the momentum of the arm swing creates all the shift needed...

 

I think this wades into upper vs lower dominance...

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, Rosco1216 said:

I said he’s not “fully hinged” to 90* at left arm parallel. That would be early. The pic Monte posted of Bryson is late. Tiger is in the middle. 

How about this one? I'd say it's late which was natural to him.

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

You and I briefly chatted about that before...basically the momentum of the arm swing creates all the shift needed...

If one happens to think Kwon knows about grf and their effect on momentum in the golf swing they might not love this idea other than as a feel for the right player 

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

You and I briefly chatted about that before...basically the momentum of the arm swing creates all the shift needed...

 

I think this wades into upper vs lower dominance...

Yes.  The funny thing is this discussion is what people perceive.  They think moving the club first would be DJ to a further extreme.  
 

Your comment about early set and late set feel looking almost the same is pertinent.  2D and feel are not reality.

 

NOT moving the club first would look like Scottish lag and how many good players after 1925 look like that?  How many average golfers could make that work?

[absoludicrous]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Moving the club head first doesn’t mean you snatch it into a 90* set with the left arm by p2.

 

 

 

Thanks Monte. This is what I was trying to understand in my earlier question in this thread. I think that with all of the “earlier wrist set” discussions, one can potentially overdo it the other way and there aren’t a lot of details discussed as to what is “too early”. I think this would help others to understand.
 

I was trying a very early set and was not very successful. I have been trying a little later at around P3 and that has seemed to help with my consistency and ball striking. I wasn’t sure if that was okay, but it seems to work better for my swing. 

[getitdaily]

13 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

If one happens to think Kwon knows about grf and their effect on momentum in the golf swing they might not love this idea other than as a feel for the right player 

Agree. But many times, the right feel is more important than the right thought if the feel produces the right thought...

[getitdaily]

12 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes.  The funny thing is this discussion is what people perceive.  They think moving the club first would be DJ to a further extreme.  
 

Your comment about early set and late set feel looking almost the same is pertinent.  2D and feel are not reality.

 

NOT moving the club first would look like Scottish lag and how many good players after 1925 look like that?  How many average golfers could make that work?

Yeah, I think moat people see "early set" and go to a visual of faldo's preset drill. Or they have bad memories of leadbetter's philosophy from however many years ago.

 

DJ is the feel I try to mimic. Tiger is what I look like. 

[getitdaily]

9 minutes ago, absoludicrous said:

Thanks Monte. This is what I was trying to understand in my earlier question in this thread. I think that with all of the “earlier wrist set” discussions, one can potentially overdo it the other way and there aren’t a lot of details discussed as to what is “too early”. I think this would help others to understand.
 

I was trying a very early set and was not very successful. I have been trying a little later at around P3 and that has seemed to help with my consistency and ball striking. I wasn’t sure if that was okay, but it seems to work better for my swing. 

Faldo preset is too early. I think dj's motion is too much too soon, for most golfers. Dechambeau is too late. 

 

I think tiger is on the late side. 

 

I think Justin rose is perfect. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by getitdaily

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Yeah, I think moat people see "early set" and go to a visual of faldo's preset drill. Or they have bad memories of leadbetter's philosophy from however many years ago.

 

DJ is the feel I try to mimic. Tiger is what I look like. 

There are always two discussions.

 

1.  What really happens.  That is only important in the context of not going off on some mystery feel merry go round.  You have to know what you’re trying to accomplish.

 

2. Then find a feel that for you, gets you #1.

 

All too often these discussions and the first 30 minutes with a new client devolve into because #1 and #2 often don’t match and that makes people want to turn a blind eye to it.

 

This pic below is posted here.

 

On the left is moving the club first.  On the right is what it looks like when you don’t.

 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

56 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is late and as in most swings with a late hinge, you get a long arms swing because the body needs more time to hinge.  When you can produce 130-150 mph of speed, you can easily recover from these two positions.  When you’re 80-100, not so much. 100-120…..it’s depends on the individual.  

Bryson does so many interesting and confounding things. Super centered pivot, across the line w/long arm swing, massively weak left hand, giant grips, and still draws everything. 

Here is a fun collage of less/more shaft angle at P3 in this order from top/down -> left/right. 

Bryson
Scottie
Homa
Tiger
Xander
Rahm
Thomas
Fleetwood
Hovland
DJ
Morikawa
Fitzpatrick
Scott
Rory
Finau
Willett

Edited November 8, 2023 by Valtiel

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

On the left is moving the club first.  On the right is what it looks like when you don’t.

 

 

 

 

 

Hogan triggered with his lower body to initiate momentum. He didn’t stand flat footed and take the club away first.

[MPStrat]

26 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Agree. But many times, the right feel is more important than the right thought if the feel produces the right thought...

I never argue against a feel that someone says works for their own swing 
 

[MonteScheinblum]

17 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Bryson does so many interesting and confounding things. Super centered pivot, across the line w/long arm swing, massively weak left hand, giant grips, and still draws everything. 

Here is a fun collage of less/more shaft angle at P3 in this order from top/down -> left/right. 

Bryson
Scottie
Homa
Tiger
Xander
Rahm
Thomas
Fleetwood
Hovland
DJ
Morikawa
Fitzpatrick
Scott
Rory
Finau
Willett

This is excellent work and whether or not you need more and/or early depends on what happens after this.  I get clients regularly that fit one the following categories.

 

1.  At this point in the swing, the left arm and shaft is a straight line.

2.  In the Bryson Scottie range and get severe arm over run and/or severe float load.

3.  Having the appearance of a 60/70 angle here with lead wrist in severe extension.

 

1 and 3 are just not acceptable to play their best golf and quite literally need the opposite feel to get in range of this group.

 

#2 needs to gravitate toward the bottom of the group.

 

Then there’s bonus group #4.  They have what appears to be a solid angle face on, but hack motions tell us different.  Same illusion that makes Sergio look like he has more lag than reality.  These people are a huge group and are sucking their arms inside because they don’t hinge enough and/or early enough.

Edited November 8, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[MonteScheinblum]

29 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Faldo preset is too early. I think dj's motion is too much too soon, for most golfers. Dechambeau is too late. 

 

I think tiger is on the late side. 

 

I think Justin rose is perfect. 

 

 

I agree Rose is an ideal to work off of, but @Valtiel array shows there’s a range of acceptability and you have to see what happens next to pass judgment. step 1 is don’t be outside the range of the array and far too many golfers are.

Edited November 8, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

Hogan triggered with his lower body to initiate momentum. He didn’t stand flat footed and take the club away first.

Neither did the guy on the right.

[tthomasgolfer605]

Let's not forget the flawless wrist movements and arm swing of Mr. Danny Noonan 😂 

[MK7Golf21]

25 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Bryson does so many interesting and confounding things. Super centered pivot, across the line w/long arm swing, massively weak left hand, giant grips, and still draws everything. 

 

Bryson used to be kind of laid off if I remember correctly, when he was into the “one plane” shaft angle the entire swing idea. Think it was working with  Como when he started going across the line. The across the line helps him hit a draw on everything. He also intentionally tries to hit it on the toe for gear effect.