Really dumb mistake.

[Nels55]

Playing in a tournament I hit a good tee shot to 11 3/4 inches on a par three.  Yes!  I marked the ball so that another player could chip on.  Then I put the ball down and measured for closest to the pin.  After measuring I started walking away and realized that I had somehow picked my marker and the ball up.  So I replaced the ball and marked it.  I took a one stroke penalty for lifting the ball without marking and made a 2 into a 3.  I think that was correct?

 

[Augster]

I don’t think it’s a penalty if it’s “accidental”. This is the newer, nicer, ROG that lets you do nearly anything on a putting green without penalty.

 

13.1d(1)

1) No Penalty for Accidentally Causing Ball to Move. There is no penalty if the player, opponent or another player in stroke play accidentally moves the player’s ball or ball-marker on the putting green.
The player must:
    •    Replace the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), or
    •    Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

 

IMO, since you were brain dead and picking up and moving both the ball AND the marker wasn’t your “intent”, a case can be made that you moved them “accidentally”.

Sadly “accidentally” is not a defined term in the ROG, intentionally or unintentionally, so “accidental” movement will always be open to interpretation. 
 

Did you physically reach down and pick up both the marker and ball? Obviously yes. Was it your “intention” to pick up both? I’ll assume not. Is an unintentional action the same as an accidental action? 
 

The dictionary defines accidental as:  “ happening by chance, UNINTENTIONALLY, or unexpectedly. “
 

One could make the case your actions were unintentional AND unexpected, thereby, “accidental”. 
 

Replace the ball, no penalty. 

 

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

I don’t think it’s a penalty if it’s “accidental”. This is the newer, nicer, ROG that lets you do nearly anything on a putting green without penalty.

 

13.1d(1)

1) No Penalty for Accidentally Causing Ball to Move. There is no penalty if the player, opponent or another player in stroke play accidentally moves the player’s ball or ball-marker on the putting green.
The player must:
    •    Replace the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), or
    •    Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

 

IMO, since you were brain dead and picking up and moving both the ball AND the marker wasn’t your “intent”, a case can be made that you moved them “accidentally”.

Sadly “accidentally” is not a defined term in the ROG, intentionally or unintentionally, so “accidental” movement will always be open to interpretation. 
 

Did you physically reach down and pick up both the marker and ball? Obviously yes. Was it your “intention” to pick up both? I’ll assume not. Is an unintentional action the same as an accidental action? 
 

The dictionary defines accidental as:  “ happening by chance, UNINTENTIONALLY, or unexpectedly. “
 

One could make the case your actions were unintentional AND unexpected, thereby, “accidental”. 
 

Replace the ball, no penalty. 

 

Unfortunately I can't see anything accidental in the post. Accidental would be along the lines of dropping your ball on the ball-marker or hitting the ball with your practice stroke. Absent-minded behaviour doesn't automatically make the action accidental. It can lead to accidental movement of the ball or ball-marker though, as in the examples.

 

Nels55, you were correct.

[sui generis]

One way to think about "accidental" is to look at Rule 9.4 where the opposite of accidental is "deliberate." If it wasn't deliberate then we might consider accidental. 😉

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=9&subrulenum=4

[davep043]

I don't think you can pick up a ball without meaning to pick up the ball, or pick up a ball marker without meaning to pick up the ball marker.  At least some part of the brain told the muscles to grab that item and pick it up, even if it wasn't the "conscious" part of the brain.  It may be a mistake, it may be "really dumb", but its not accidental.  

[Dpavs]

So...the real lesson here is that if you are that close to the hole you should just ask if you can and then proceed to put out?

[SNIPERBBB]

Accidentally moving would be like if you accidentally kicked it when turning around, magnetic marker decides to attach it self to your putter, etc. grabbing it is not accidental. Brainless perhaps but not accidental.

[davep043]

24 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

So...the real lesson here is that if you are that close to the hole you should just ask if you can and then proceed to put out?

Or if its a Stroke Play competition, just putt it out without asking.  

[Augster]

Accidental is not defined in the ROG. We only have the dictionary to go by. 
 

Did he unintentionally pick up his mark and ball at the same time? Absolutely. It is an accidental act by the dictionary definition of accidental. 
 

From 9.4:

“Exception 3 – Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.”

 

“No matter how that happens” is very broad and encompasses a LOT of situations. Like, for example, where the OP unintentionally moved his mark and ball at the same time. Even though the OP moving his muscles to reach down and pick up both was a semi-conscious act, it wasn’t his intention to move both. Thereby “accidental” “no matter how that happens.”

 

 

[sui generis]

Most referees that I know are not troubled by "accidental" vs "deliberate." 😉

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Accidental is not defined in the ROG. We only have the dictionary to go by. 
 

Did he unintentionally pick up his mark and ball at the same time? Absolutely. It is an accidental act by the dictionary definition of accidental. 
 

From 9.4:

“Exception 3 – Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.”

 

“No matter how that happens” is very broad and encompasses a LOT of situations. Like, for example, where the OP unintentionally moved his mark and ball at the same time. Even though the OP moving his muscles to reach down and pick up both was a semi-conscious act, it wasn’t his intention to move both. Thereby “accidental” “no matter how that happens.”

 

 

Sorry, but you are plain wrong.   Picking up ball and marker will  always be a deliberate  conscious, intentional action.  Just because you've done it when you shouldn't have doesn't turn it into an accident.  

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Colin L

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Sorry, but you are plain wrong.   Picking up ball and marker will  always be a deliberate  conscious, intentional action.  Just because you've done it when you shouldn't have doesn't turn it into an accident.  

 

Yep. Accidental in this situation is taking practice strokes and bumping the ball a few inches to the side, or tapping down your ball mark with your putter and it sticks to the bottom of your putter.

[Nels55]

Thanks for all of the replies!  I did read the rules before signing my card and at this point there is no doubt in my mind that in stroke play you cannot lift the ball on the putting green if it is not marked.  

Edited November 7, 2023 by Nels55

[Dpavs]

11 hours ago, Augster said:

Accidental is not defined in the ROG. We only have the dictionary to go by. 
 

Did he unintentionally pick up his mark and ball at the same time? Absolutely. It is an accidental act by the dictionary definition of accidental. 
 

From 9.4:

“Exception 3 – Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.”

 

“No matter how that happens” is very broad and encompasses a LOT of situations. Like, for example, where the OP unintentionally moved his mark and ball at the same time. Even though the OP moving his muscles to reach down and pick up both was a semi-conscious act, it wasn’t his intention to move both. Thereby “accidental” “no matter how that happens.”

 

 

 

I think the distinction that is missed here is that there is a difference as to "intended result" vs an "intended action". I firmly believe that the rule only addresses an intended action, regardless of whether the result was intended or not. Clearly the intended action was to pick up the ball, and the fact that the player failed to mark the ball prior to picking it up which resulted in an unintended result, is completely irrelevant.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Dpavs

[Colin L]

1 minute ago, Dpavs said:

 

I think the distinction that is missed here is that there is a difference as to "intended result" vs an "intended action". I firmly believe that the rule only addresses an intended action, regardless of whether the result was intended or not. Clearly the intended action was to pick up the ball and the fact that the player failed to mark the ball prior to picking it up which resulted in an unintended result is completely irrelevant.

Exactly.

[Augster]

But, basically anything done unintentionally is done “accidentally”, by the definition of accidental. Accidental results are the opposite of intentional results. 
 

“No matter how that happens” is very broad. 
 

Let’s remember, these are for actions with the ball ON the putting green. A player doesn’t get any of these “protections” if their ball is off the green. 
 

If you think through it, what the USGA/RA are trying to tell us, they are removing the grey areas. 
 

For example, same situation as the OP, he marks his ball, picks it up, then as he’s going to unintentionally pick up his mark, his putter he’s leaning on gives out and his hand slides across the green and “accidentally” brushes his mark sideways as he’s falling down. 
 

Can we all agree there’s no penalty and the mark is replaced?

 

So if he slips and falls and moves the mark 1cm, that he was unintentionally trying to pick up, because he wasn’t paying attention, it’s no penalty. But if he unintentionally lifts it 1cm then realizes  what he’s doing, it is a penalty? That is too much gray area. 
 

“No matter how that happens” is in the language to remove that grey area for balls unintentionally /accidentally moved on the putting green. 

 

That’s how it can be read anyway. 

 

[davep043]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

But, basically anything done unintentionally is done “accidentally”, by the definition of accidental. Accidental results are the opposite of intentional results. 
 

“No matter how that happens” is very broad. 
 

Let’s remember, these are for actions with the ball ON the putting green. A player doesn’t get any of these “protections” if their ball is off the green. 
 

If you think through it, what the USGA/RA are trying to tell us, they are removing the grey areas. 
 

For example, same situation as the OP, he marks his ball, picks it up, then as he’s going to unintentionally pick up his mark, his putter he’s leaning on gives out and his hand slides across the green and “accidentally” brushes his mark sideways as he’s falling down. 
 

Can we all agree there’s no penalty and the mark is replaced?

 

So if he slips and falls and moves the mark 1cm, that he was unintentionally trying to pick up, because he wasn’t paying attention, it’s no penalty. But if he unintentionally lifts it 1cm then realizes  what he’s doing, it is a penalty? That is too much gray area. 
 

“No matter how that happens” is in the language to remove that grey area for balls unintentionally /accidentally moved on the putting green. 

 

That’s how it can be read anyway. 

 

I suppose I look at the golf ball as having been Lifted, since that's that the OP says he did, he picked up the ball, he Lifted it.  And he intended to lift it after measuring for the Closest to the Pin.

 

On 11/5/2023 at 5:12 PM, Nels55 said:

I took a one stroke penalty for lifting the ball without marking and made a 2 into a 3

And he lifted the ball without marking it.  And 14.1 tells us that if you Lift your ball without marking it, you have breached the Rule.  Even if you forget to put down your Ball Marker, even if your breach was accidental in that regard, he still failed to mark a ball he lifted, he still breached the Rule.  It would similarly be a breach if he marked it in a Wrong Way (maybe with a twig).  And it would still be a breach if he forgot to pick up his mark before making a Stroke at the replaced Ball.  All of those would be accidental, but each one is a breach of 14.1  

 

Just my opinion, but I think if you want to continue down the "accidental" road, you should really do so with an email to the USGA or R&A, and let us know (without directly quoting it here) what their response is.

[Augster]

The USGA sees it as you all see it. 
 

But, we may get a definition of “accidental” and a removal, or rewrite, of the phrase “no matter how that happens”  in the next revision. 

[davep043]

51 minutes ago, Augster said:

The USGA sees it as you all see it. 
 

But, we may get a definition of “accidental” and a removal, or rewrite, of the phrase “no matter how that happens”  in the next revision. 

Thanks for taking care of this.  I wouldn't have a problem with a definition of Accidental, although that might open up a different can of worms.  I think most (not all) of us see a difference between an unintentional breach and a true accident.