Ball Holed or Not?

[Nickb333]

2 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

It needs to meet the definition as defined by the Rules of Golf. 
 

EMBEDDED

 

When a player’s ball is in its own pitch-mark made as a result of the player’s previous stroke and where part of the ball is below the level of the ground.
A ball does not necessarily have to touch soil to be embedded (for example, grass and loose impediments may be between the ball and the soil).

Ah. The old redefinition of plain language ploy. 😀 well done usga. 

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Ah. The old redefinition of plain language ploy. 😀 well done usga. 

Is there any set of Rules that doesn't rely on specific definitions of otherwise generic terms?  Club, Ball, Hole, Advice, how can we understand the Rules if these aren't defined pretty specifically in regards to the game of Golf?  Is a Foul in basketball the same as Foul in baseball, without specific definitions?  

[Nickb333]

16 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

It needs to meet the definition as defined by the Rules of Golf. 
 

EMBEDDED

 

When a player’s ball is in its own pitch-mark made as a result of the player’s previous stroke and where part of the ball is below the level of the ground.
A ball does not necessarily have to touch soil to be embedded (for example, grass and loose impediments may be between the ball and the soil).

So I’ll ask the question another way. 
 

Is the ball resting against the flagstick? I can’t tell from the picture. 
 

If the ball is resting against the flagstick and in its own pitch mark, which rule/clarification takes priority? And why? 

[Nickb333]

10 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Is there any set of Rules that doesn't rely on specific definitions of otherwise generic terms?  Club, Ball, Hole, Advice, how can we understand the Rules if these aren't defined pretty specifically in regards to the game of Golf?  Is a Foul in basketball the same as Foul in baseball, without specific definitions?  

Um, I was making a joke. 

[davep043]

Just now, Nickb333 said:

So I’ll ask the question another way. 
 

Is the ball resting against the flagstick? I can’t tell from the picture. 
 

If the ball is resting against the flagstick and in its own pitch mark, which rule/clarification takes priority? And why? 

Clarification 1 to the Definition:

"When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick."

This was quoted in the 4th response to the OP.

[davep043]

16 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Um, I was making a joke. 

Sorry to jump on you, but lots of folks don't even realize that there ARE Definitions in the Rules of Golf.  In lots of cases, including this one, reading the Definition provides an answer to a question.  The various resources for the Rules, including the phone app and the online versions, make it easy, each defined term is in bold italics can be clicked to link directly to the Definition itself.  

[Nickb333]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Sorry to jump on you, but lots of folks don't even realize that there ARE Definitions in the Rules of Golf.  In lots of cases, including this one, reading the Definition provides an answer to a question.  The various resources for the Rules, including the phone app and the online versions, make it easy, each defined term is in bold italics can be clicked to link directly to the Definition itself.  

No worries. West coast here, no coffee yet. 
 

Anyway, I’d still question wether that ball is embedded in the side of the hole. Sure looks like it could be suspended by turf in between the flagstick and the hole. If the flagstick is straight up, and the ball is touching it, the ball can’t also be touching/embedded in the side of the hole. The dimensions simply won’t allow both to occur simultaneously. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Nickb333 said:

No worries. West coast here, no coffee yet. 
 

Anyway, I’d still question wether that ball is embedded in the side of the hole. Sure looks like it could be suspended by turf in between the flagstick and the hole. If the flagstick is straight up, and the ball is touching it, the ball can’t also be touching/embedded in the side of the hole. The dimensions simply won’t allow both to occur simultaneously. 

 

I can't tell if it's embedded or not but if that is where the ball landed, more likely than not, it's pushed some turf in towards the stick, and the ball is lying closer to the stick; as it appears in the pic.

 

So yes, I believe if one does the math, it could be embedded and be touching the stick.

 

Had the ball flown and embedded in a side of the hole to the side or past the stick, I think it likely would not have been able to touch the stick and be embedded.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Ah. The old redefinition of plain language ploy. 😀 well done usga. 

 

You would REALLY get a different view if you opened ANY law book. Well done, House of Representatives, you would say.

[Nickb333]

44 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I can't tell if it's embedded or not but if that is where the ball landed, more likely than not, it's pushed some turf in towards the stick, and the ball is lying closer to the stick; as it appears in the pic.

 

So yes, I believe if one does the math, it could be embedded and be touching the stick.

 

Had the ball flown and embedded in a side of the hole to the side or past the stick, I think it likely would not have been able to touch the stick and be embedded.

The hole is defined as 4.25”. It would need to shrink for a ball to be embedded in its side and touch the flagstick, wouldn’t it? 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

So I’ll ask the question another way. 
 

Is the ball resting against the flagstick? I can’t tell from the picture. 
 

If the ball is resting against the flagstick and in its own pitch mark, which rule/clarification takes priority? And why? 

 

I am confused.

 

The answer has been given with sufficient wording. Was there a part of the Holed/1 you did not understand? It specifically says "This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.".

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

The hole is defined as 4.25”. It would need to shrink for a ball to be embedded in its side and touch the flagstick, wouldn’t it? 

 

No, all it needs is a thick flagstick.

 

Besides, there is no limit to the maximum diameter of a golf ball.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

The hole is defined as 4.25”. It would need to shrink for a ball to be embedded in its side and touch the flagstick, wouldn’t it? 

 

To either side, or past the pin, embedded in the sidewall of the hole, I'd say "yes".

[rogolf]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No, all it needs is a thick flagstick.

 

Besides, there is no limit to the maximum diameter of a golf ball.

 

 

True, but there is to the maximum diameter of the flagstick, no greater than 0.75 inches from 3 inches above the surface of the putting green to 3 inches below the surface of the putting green.

[Nickb333]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You would REALLY get a different view if you opened ANY law book. Well done, House of Representatives, you would say.

Mine is pretty old. Embedded is missing. 😉

 

 

[Nickb333]

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

True, but there is to the maximum diameter of the flagstick, no greater than 0.75 inches from 3 inches above the surface of the putting green to 3 inches below the surface of the putting green.

And there it is. A normal golf ball can’t touch the flag stick and the side of the hole simultaneously unless the stick is leaning or the hole is smaller than regulation. 

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

And there it is. A normal golf ball can’t touch the flag stick and the side of the hole simultaneously unless the stick is leaning or the hole is smaller than regulation. 

Further, if the ball is embedded in any side of the hole, part of it is beyond the edge of the hole, ie, even farther from the flagstick.

Thus, the assumption made in the original post, that the ball was touching the flagstick, is not valid.

[Nickb333]

45 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No, all it needs is a thick flagstick.

 

Besides, there is no limit to the maximum diameter of a golf ball.

 

 

The flag stick question got answered. .75” is max. 
 

I couldn’t find a golf ball bigger than 1.73” which is quite a bit larger than normal. Even that ball isn’t big enough to simultaneously touch the stick and side of the hole unless the stick is leaning. 

[Nickb333]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

Further, if the ball is embedded in any side of the hole, part of it is beyond the edge of the hole, ie, even farther from the flagstick.

Thus, the assumption made in the original post, that the ball was touching the flagstick, is not valid.

Correct. I mentioned in my earlier comment that you can’t tell if the ball is touching the stick. 

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Correct. I mentioned in my earlier comment that you can’t tell if the ball is touching the stick. 

Copied this from the original post:

EDIT: Assume it IS resting against the pin, but is NOT completely below the surface of the green.

 

As Joe Friday said, "Just the facts ma'am, just the facts."

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by rogolf

[Nickb333]

51 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Copied this from the original post:

EDIT: Assume it IS resting against the pin, but is NOT completely below the surface of the green.

 

As Joe Friday said, "Just the facts ma'am, just the facts."

 

T not sure I noticed the edit. So it’s touching the pin.  I’d be pretty po’d if the rules of golf allow the hole to shrink. 
 

As I wrote, unless the pin is leaning, a ball touching the pin can’t also be touching the side of the cup. Let alone be embedded there. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Mine is pretty old. Embedded is missing. 😉

 

 

 

Well, keep on digging...

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

The flag stick question got answered. .75” is max. 
 

I couldn’t find a golf ball bigger than 1.73” which is quite a bit larger than normal. Even that ball isn’t big enough to simultaneously touch the stick and side of the hole unless the stick is leaning. 

 

So... the Ruling Bodies are stupid and you are smart, is that it?

 

Personally I would but my wages on the RBs as they tend to understand the Rules of Golf way better than neither of us. As already pointed out by some others, the flagstick may be leaning, bent, off the mount, etc.

 

But I guess you know better. Merry Christmas!

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

True, but there is to the maximum diameter of the flagstick, no greater than 0.75 inches from 3 inches above the surface of the putting green to 3 inches below the surface of the putting green.

 

Yeah, there are lots of Rules and such, but as you and I very well know, not every course follows them. Maybe the RBs have been clever enough to make the wording of Holed/1 covering also those courses and instances.

 

Well, around here we do not have those problems as every course has their own course management and a committee. I bet the RBs would have a vastly reduced job in writing the Rules in my country 😇

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, Nickb333 said:

As I wrote, unless the pin is leaning, a ball touching the pin can’t also be touching the side of the cup. Let alone be embedded there. 

You are assuming the dirt in the hole does not move. From the picture it clearly looks like the ball hit and pushed a whole bunch of the dirt surrounding the hole into the hole itself. SO it clearly is possible to still be embedded in that dirt and be touching the pin.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Schulzmc

[Soloman1]

As a dues-paying member of Pedantics Anonymous, I would like to add that one never marks a ball when it’s in the hole.

[Nickb333]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So... the Ruling Bodies are stupid and you are smart, is that it?

 

Personally I would but my wages on the RBs as they tend to understand the Rules of Golf way better than neither of us. As already pointed out by some others, the flagstick may be leaning, bent, off the mount, etc.

 

But I guess you know better. Merry Christmas!

That's what I wrote. 

 

I'm not at all claiming to be smart. I'm asking questions to understand. It makes no sense to me that a ball entirely within the circumference of the hole and resting against the flag stick wouldn't be deemed holed. 

 

BTW. I have learned more about the rules of golf in this thread. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nickb333

[Nickb333]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, keep on digging...

Why? You stated any legal dictionary. That's the only legal dictionairy I own. Embedded isn't in there. 

[Nickb333]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

You are assuming the dirt in the hole does not move. From the picture it clearly looks like the ball hit and pushed a whole bunch of the dirt surrounding the hole into the hole itself. SO it clearly is possible to still be embedded in that dirt and be touching the pin.

My thoughts are that the dirt within the 4.25 circumference of the cup is no longer the part of the cups side. It's now dirt inside the cup. 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

It makes no sense to me that a ball entirely within the circumference of the hole and resting against the flag stick wouldn't be deemed holed.

 

It's not entirely within the circumference of the hole.

 

6 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Why? You stated any legal dictionary. That's the only legal dictionairy I own. Embedded isn't in there. 

 

He said "law" dictionary, and his point was not that it would have the definition of the word "embedded," but that it would define otherwise common words in a very specific way.

 

The common definition for the word tort can mean a cake. In law it has a very specific definition that really has disappointingly little to do with baked goods.