Ball Holed or Not?

[Schulzmc]

I saw this on FB with some interesting discussion. Is this ball holed or not?

 

EDIT: Assume it IS resting against the pin, but is NOT completely below the surface of the green.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Schulzmc

[Sp4zRX]

I would consider it holed. 
 

Rule 13.2c

If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
    •    If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
    •    If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
    »    The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
    »    If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).

[Sp4zRX]

Actually, after a closer look at the picture, I’m not so sure. It’s hard to tell if the ball is actually below the surface of the green. 
 

If the player on scene knew the rule it should be easy to determine if it’s holed or not. The picture doesn’t give us the 3D view the player would have. 

[nsxguy]

I would say it's holed.

 

I'm sure someone with extensive knowledge of geometry could calculate the possibility that a ball lying against the pin would/could NOT be holed (by definition).

 

In that photo, it appears as though the ball is embedded in its pitchmark. That alone would put part of the ball "below the surface of the green".

 

So if it's also lying against the pin, I would think it has to be holed.

 

 

[Schulzmc]

56 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

I would consider it holed. 
 

Rule 13.2c

If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
    •    If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
    •    If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
    »    The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
    »    If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).

 

The clarifications say:

 

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

[Schulzmc]

52 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

Actually, after a closer look at the picture, I’m not so sure. It’s hard to tell if the ball is actually below the surface of the green. 
 

If the player on scene knew the rule it should be easy to determine if it’s holed or not. The picture doesn’t give us the 3D view the player would have. 

 

The person who posted the picture said it was not completely below the surface of the green. That's why I said to assume this to be the case.

 

[Sp4zRX]

5 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

 

The clarifications say:

 

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

Fair enough. Then I would think it is pretty clear it is not holed! I was not aware of the clarification rule. Thank you!

[Nickb333]

Fully comes down to wether it’s actually embedded. 

[Soloman1]

I’ll bet it could be holed when pulling the pin the right way. 🙂

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

 

The clarifications say:

 

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

 

👍

 

So the question then is, "Is the ball embedded ?"

 

Looking a bit more closely, as it looks like I can see the bottom of the ball, it may not be - it may simply be lying in a previously damaged but not correctly fixed depression.

 

Was there any more info in that discussion as to how it got there ?

[Mr. Bean]

There has been a thread on this topic before but I am too lazy to dig it up.

 

EDIT: FWIW, I believe Schultz already found the essence of this issue.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

I don't want to prolong this discussion as it's about the fourth time that picture (or a similar one) has appeared, but a ball can be embedded in the side of the hole and the "bottom" of the ball can be visible.

BTW, the correct answer and justification for it has been given above.  The ball is not holed.

Edited December 16, 2023 by rogolf

[Cliffy2020]

If it’s ruled “not holed” I don’t see how the green can be repaired, ball replaced and it NOT fall in.

 

Also, if this is a par 3 it’s obviously IN and I’m ordering a double at the bar on my partners tab 👍🏼

[Avidswampthing66]

WOW!! That's a true rub if the green situation.

[nsxguy]

22 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I don't want to prolong this discussion as it's about the fourth time that picture (or a similar one) has appeared, but a ball can be embedded in the side of the hole and the "bottom" of the ball can be visible.

BTW, the correct answer and justification for it has been given above.  The ball is not holed.

 

Sure, embedded in a "wall" of a hole, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

Couldn't the ball have hit the green and rolled into an unrepaired spot such as in the pic and be resting against the flagstick ?

 

Solely from that pic, I can't tell if it's embedded or not.

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sure, embedded in a "wall" of a hole, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

Couldn't the ball have hit the green and rolled into an unrepaired spot such as in the pic and be resting against the flagstick ?

 

Solely from that pic, I can't tell if it's embedded or not.

The question was whether it is holed or not - it's not.

[596]

32 minutes ago, Cliffy2020 said:

If it’s ruled “not holed” I don’t see how the green can be repaired, ball replaced and it NOT fall in.

 

Also, if this is a par 3 it’s obviously IN and I’m ordering a double at the bar on my partners tab 👍🏼

When replacing that ball per the rules you must place it on the green.  If it's further away from the hole, then so be it.  It can't just fall into the hole and be considered holed.  It must be placed on the green. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

The question was whether it is holed or not - it's not.

 

Excuse me ro, but this is a discussion, no ?

 

And whether or not it's embedded has a direct bearing on whether it's holed or not. True ?

 

So if you don't wish to discuss it, no worries. Others still might, whether they've discussed it before or not.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I saw this on FB with some interesting discussion. Is this ball holed or not?

 

So... the outcome of that FB discussion was not to your liking or was there another reason you wanted to bring this (already many times on different forums answered question) on this forum?

[rogolf]

10 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Excuse me ro, but this is a discussion, no ?

 

And whether or not it's embedded has a direct bearing on whether it's holed or not. True ?

 

So if you don't wish to discuss it, no worries. Others still might, whether they've discussed it before or not.

 

 

 

I'll leave it alone, might there be an definitive answer to the original question at the end of the discussion?

[Schulzmc]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So... the outcome of that FB discussion was not to your liking or was there another reason you wanted to bring this (already many times on different forums answered question) on this forum?

My apologies. I’ve been hanging out in this forum (and learning a ton) since 2015 and have never seen this being discussed. There was no definitive outcome in the FB forum, and I felt the experts here would shine some light on the situation. I also thought it was a much more interesting thing to discuss than “who wins the skin” etc. 

 

I also feel like it is a very interesting situation. Is the ball embedded or not? And did people realize/know that was the key question? If the ball falls in the hole when you pull the pin does it matter? Etc.

 

As was mentioned to someone else above - if you don’t want to discuss it, then don’t. But I thought some might find this discussion interesting and informative. Again, my apologies if I should not have posted it.

[Cliffy2020]

3 hours ago, 596 said:

When replacing that ball per the rules you must place it on the green.  If it's further away from the hole, then so be it.  It can't just fall into the hole and be considered holed.  It must be placed on the green. 

[antip]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

👍

 

So the question then is, "Is the ball embedded ?"

 

Looking a bit more closely, as it looks like I can see the bottom of the ball, it may not be - it may simply be lying in a previously damaged but not correctly fixed depression.

 

Was there any more info in that discussion as to how it got there ?

Sure looks to me like that ball did the damage. But if the facts are that this ball rolled there and the damage was already there, that ball is not embedded and the ball is holed.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

My apologies. I’ve been hanging out in this forum (and learning a ton) since 2015 and have never seen this being discussed. There was no definitive outcome in the FB forum, and I felt the experts here would shine some light on the situation. I also thought it was a much more interesting thing to discuss than “who wins the skin” etc. 

 

I also feel like it is a very interesting situation. Is the ball embedded or not? And did people realize/know that was the key question? If the ball falls in the hole when you pull the pin does it matter? Etc.

 

As was mentioned to someone else above - if you don’t want to discuss it, then don’t. But I thought some might find this discussion interesting and informative. Again, my apologies if I should not have posted it.

IMO, no harm in posting, it is always useful to be reminded of uncommon clarifications. In this case, if my recollection serves, this issue was first resolved here early in the life of the 2019 rule by our friend Sawgrass, who sourced the answer from the USGA's Thomas Pagel.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

There was no definitive outcome in the FB forum,

 

No definitive outcome? Even though there is an extremely clear Clarification on the matter (the one you attached) ??

 

What might have been unclear in that FB discussion? Other than was the damage made by that particular ball or another...

[davep043]

20 hours ago, Cliffy2020 said:

If it’s ruled “not holed” I don’t see how the green can be repaired, ball replaced and it NOT fall in.

Assuming the ball actually DID make that hole, its embedded in the side of the hole, and is not holed, per Clarification 1 to the Definition of Holed.  On the putting green, 13.1b says you may mark and lift the ball.  13.1c(2) says you can repair damage to the Putting Green.  Clarification 13.1c(2)/1 says damage to the Hole is damage to the Putting Green and may be repaired.  14.2e covers a situation where the ball will not remain at rest on its original spot, you place it at the nearest spot where it WILL remain at rest, with some limits.  Its really pretty simple, I've just included all (or most) of the relevant Rules so you can read for yourself.  

[Nickb333]

So, does that ball meet this definition? 
 

 

[Cliffy2020]

34 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Assuming the ball actually DID make that hole, its embedded in the side of the hole, and is not holed, per Clarification 1 to the Definition of Holed.  On the putting green, 13.1b says you may mark and lift the ball.  13.1c(2) says you can repair damage to the Putting Green.  Clarification 13.1c(2)/1 says damage to the Hole is damage to the Putting Green and may be repaired.  14.2e covers a situation where the ball will not remain at rest on its original spot, you place it at the nearest spot where it WILL remain at rest, with some limits.  Its really pretty simple, I've just included all (or most) of the relevant Rules so you can read for yourself.  

I just wanted a free drink

[Sp4zRX]

3 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

So, does that ball meet this definition? 
 

 

It needs to meet the definition as defined by the Rules of Golf. 
 

EMBEDDED

 

When a player’s ball is in its own pitch-mark made as a result of the player’s previous stroke and where part of the ball is below the level of the ground.
A ball does not necessarily have to touch soil to be embedded (for example, grass and loose impediments may be between the ball and the soil).

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

So, does that ball meet this definition? 

There are MANY terms for which the Definition of the Rules of Golf is a little different from the "general use" definition.  Of you're not playing golf, feel free to use the dictionary definition.  When you're playing golf, the only definition that counts is the one here:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions

or here:

https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions

They're identical, I just provided both so you can verify that for yourself.