90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span

[Righty to Lefty]

2 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Good people, RtoL has made himself known all over these forums with his claims of being more of an expert on all things golf than anyone else you can name. He understands wedge bounce & grinds better than Vokey or any Tour professional--that thread was a fun one--and putting better than Loren Roberts. You're wasting your time trying to convince him that he's wrong about anything.

 

I can promise you will never get him to admit or understand that his interpretation of the fundamental principals of the universe that govern motion and applied forces is wrong. You may have accolades and degrees and peer-reviewed papers, but you cannot win this one. You will only hurt your brain trying, I assure you.

Oh you mean when I said to use the bounce and then posted a video of Bob Vokey explaining how and that you should use the bounce on a wedge and that using the leading edge is not the most efficient way to use the club.  

 

Use the bounce on your wedges people: 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

17 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

So if you understood angular momentum, you’d realize how stupid it is to claim that rotational motion “doesn’t count” as useful momentum until it’s linearly moving towards the target.

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/torque-angular-momentum/torque-tutorial/v/angular-momentum
 

This video will help you understand more, and better yet it isn’t made by someone who isn’t schizo-posting random garbage on YouTube. 

I didn't say doesn't count...I said that there is an optimal time to assist the building momentum of a club along the swing arc to gain maximum leverage and this is clearly demonstrated in the DeChambeau / Berkshire video.  

[KD1]

5 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

What you mean "we" I been saying that if you want to swing it better to be more "physically capable" and the wrist angles and such will take care of themselves.  I am "we!" 

 

For the second time today: *sigh* Dude...

 

Take a step back, take a breath... maybe sleep on it.

 

 

[Pretzel]

11 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I didn't say doesn't count...I said that there is an optimal time to assist the building momentum of a club along the swing arc to gain maximum leverage and this is clearly demonstrated in the DeChambeau / Berkshire video.  

My guy, if you’re building angular momentum it doesn’t matter where you are on the circle. 
 

You should try checking out that physics video sometime, it will be enlightening. 

[virtuoso]

58 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Good people, RtoL has made himself known all over these forums with his claims of being more of an expert on all things golf than anyone else you can name. He understands wedge bounce & grinds better than Vokey or any Tour professional--that thread was a fun one--and putting better than Loren Roberts. You're wasting your time trying to convince him that he's wrong about anything.

 

I can promise you will never get him to admit or understand that his interpretation of the fundamental principals of the universe that govern motion and applied forces is wrong. You may have accolades and degrees and peer-reviewed papers, but you cannot win this one. You will only hurt your brain trying, I assure you.

Yeah, when I saw the thread assassin show up, I gathered up all the children and ran out to the parking lot.

[Righty to Lefty]

49 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

My guy, if you’re building angular momentum it doesn’t matter where you are on the circle. 
 

You should try checking out that physics video sometime, it will be enlightening. 

I watched it twice...and by definition the club is gaining momentum because it is being acted upon by an outside force, the golfer, and it is also technically moving downhill. The club head's velocity is also changing throughout the entire swing motion further demonstrating that momentum isn't constant but is still the correct term to be used. Please clarify further if I am missing something but there is an optimal time to assist the building momentum of the club head as it approaches low point of the swing arc.  

 

momentum

[ moh-men-tuhm ]SHOW IPA

 

See synonyms for momentum on Thesaurus.com

---

noun,plural mo·men·ta  [moh-men-tuh], mo·men·tums.

1. force or speed of movement; impetus, as of a physical object or course of events:

   The car gained momentum going downhill. 

   Momentum is a conserved quantity (it remains constant unless acted upon by an outside force), and is related by Noether's theorem to translational invariance.

    

   velocity

   [ vuh-los-i-tee ]SHOW IPA

   

    

   See synonyms for velocity on Thesaurus.com

   ---

   noun,plural ve·loc·i·ties.

   1. rapidity of motion or operation; swiftness; speed:a high wind velocity.

   2. Mechanics. the time rate of change of position of a body in a specified direction.

Edited January 7 by Righty to Lefty

[GolfTurkey]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

Good people, RtoL has made himself known all over these forums with his claims of being more of an expert on all things golf than anyone else you can name. He understands wedge bounce & grinds better than Vokey or any Tour professional--that thread was a fun one--and putting better than Loren Roberts. You're wasting your time trying to convince him that he's wrong about anything.

 

I can promise you will never get him to admit or understand that his interpretation of the fundamental principals of the universe that govern motion and applied forces is wrong. You may have accolades and degrees and peer-reviewed papers, but you cannot win this one. You will only hurt your brain trying, I assure you.

 

I can only imagine the irony if he tries to argue social psychology with Dunning and Kruger.

Edited January 7 by GolfTurkey

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Oh you mean when I said to use the bounce and then posted a video of Bob Vokey explaining how and that you should use the bounce on a wedge and that using the leading edge is not the most efficient way to use the club.  

 

Use the bounce on your wedges people: 

 

I'm referring to the part of the thread where you claimed to know more about wedge design and optimization than Vokey and Touring Professionals, alongside claiming that high bounce, traditional grind wedges are the end-all-be-all and are the only thing anyone should be using or be skilled with under any circumstances. You've only played a very, very small sample of course conditions if you continue to think that's the case.

 

I honestly don't know why I'm typing this out. You refuse to accept you're wrong on anything, ever. In another thread in this section you misquoted Rahm multiple times, were proven to have misquoted him with the actual text, then were further proven wrong with him on video stating something contrary to what you said--that he cannot get the club to parallel--yet still refused to eat your crow and chill.

 

I get it, that's just how your brain works. You can't be wrong, you can't misunderstand anything, and you're more skilled and knowledgeable than anyone else ever on anything you set your mind to. It's only thanks to that obscene talent and massive brain power that you have time to even deal with us mortals. You're so far above us that you can explain our misunderstandings of fact in the few minutes you have between your record-setting MLB career and your side gig as the first and only PGA player who moonlights as a world-class instructor, eh? Oh, I forgot about your other side gig as an adjunct professor in MIT's Physics Department.

 

 

[coops]

 

Excuse me for interrupting this... malarkey? Brain-achery? Fizzics lesson?

 

On 1/6/2024 at 2:07 AM, Soloman1 said:

 

Anyone remember the Kiwi with the archery, reverse motorcycle move? Can’t remember his name. On and on and on and no one could understand what in the world he was talking about.

 

Had quite a following…

 

 

I believe you're referring to Martin Ayers - erstwhile of Secret in the Dirt & Steve Elkington times... now, i do fondly remember Mike Maves (sevam1) and his golden retriever... but the Martin Ayers stuff was even more bewildering.

 

Fortunately, I never realised there was an entire thread here devoted to it.

Do not follow the link below - I will not be held responsible if you do.

 

 

I did stumble on this useful info from a post by thelatorres on page 93 (!!) though and pass it on to those looking for the answer to golf:-

 

"I'm going to tell you a secret. It's about a friend of mine named Bill. Bill was a 15 handicap and was always looking for the latest golf gimmick to take his game to the next level. He tried everything on the market, until one day, he stumbled upon the key to the golf swing. This one thing that he did suddenly straightened out his drives and added 50 yards! He dropped his handicap from a 15 to a +2.0 in just one month. The secret involves a powerful new concept called wrenching. "Once I started wrenching my drives, everyone wanted to know my secret." Now, you too can own the e-book that has revolutionized the game of golf overnight for millions of people in the know. Don't be left in the dark, send $14.95 to bunkerputt and you too can own the source of this great wealth of knowledge. Here are just a few snippets from the e-book:

"You must lash out with every limb, like the octopus who plays the drums." p. 134

"When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack." p. 135"

 

 

And now, back to your original programming.

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

17 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

In order for he club to return to the proper plane to strike the ball with maximum leverage the golfer must be patient and let the arm/club unit fall

Here is a look at Kyle Berkshire letting the arm/club unit fall:

 

[Hilts1969]

7 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I expressly stated to let the club fall to the trail hip so you should go and watch it again and pay closer attention please because it was stated within the first couple sentences of the video so you don't have to watch very long then you can move onto something else. I also need answers as to how Berkshire is 20 mph faster than DeChambeau. How does his swing take twice as long, yet go 20 mph faster.  I need to know asap because surely Berkshire knows to yank the club from the top of the backswing and he will be faster.  He has to know that. 

 

Just because you said you let it fall doesn't make it so, especially as we can all see you don't. 

 

You could claim a magic vacuum created by Spock pulls it, a golf fairy comes to your aid or the spirit of old Tom Morris enters your body. 

 

You can ramble away with all sorts of diagrams and false musings, why you think we should accept the nonsense is the only bit that confuses me.

 

 

[Hilts1969]

14 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Here is a look at Kyle Berkshire letting the arm/club unit fall:

 

 

This is why i never try and get a golf ball out of a lake unless the moon is directly behind me. You really really don't want the gravitational pull of the moon in front of you. 

 

If you don't let go of the club you're going in my friend. Even Bryson couldn't get out.

 

 

 

Kyle could though:-)

Edited January 7 by Hilts1969

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Here is a look at Kyle Berkshire letting the arm/club unit fall:

 

Well, if you watch it in slo-motion it appears to be falling.🤣

 

But thanks to one certain poster this thread, and others here, have been ruined for most of us.

[Brian Manzella]

Wow!

 

RightytoLefty,

You sure try.

 

What about this....ask 3 questions you want answered about how the science really works, and I'll report back with the answers.

[johnrobison]

I can't bear to watch

 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

Wow!

 

RightytoLefty,

You sure try.

 

What about this....ask 3 questions you want answered about how the science really works, and I'll report back with the answers.

We know that gravity’s role in the golf swing is actually miniscule. Knowing the science, how would you explain why some of the greats of the past talked about the arms falling, or a gravity drop? 

[HulaGolfMom]

15 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Oh you mean when I said to use the bounce and then posted a video of Bob Vokey explaining how and that you should use the bounce on a wedge and that using the leading edge is not the most efficient way to use the club.  

 

Use the bounce on your wedges people: 

 

Except this week at Kapalua, where Kisner (tour pro) basically said bounce is irrelevant this week with the Bermuda grass.

[iacas]

Feel ain’t real.

[Righty to Lefty]

4 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

Wow!

 

RightytoLefty,

You sure try.

 

What about this....ask 3 questions you want answered about how the science really works, and I'll report back with the answers.

Will do much appreciated.  I also have a request that I will send to you in a private message.  

Edited January 7 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

51 minutes ago, HulaGolfMom said:

Except this week at Kapalua, where Kisner (tour pro) basically said bounce is irrelevant this week with the Bermuda grass.

There is no scenario where it is beneficial for the club to dig on partial wedge shots...not one.  

 

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

We know that gravity’s role in the golf swing is actually miniscule. Knowing the science, how would you explain why some of the greats of the past talked about the arms falling, or a gravity drop? 

The club doesn't actually drop  straight down because the body is out in front and leading.  Without rotation, the club would fall to about the trail hip but under rotation it finds the swing plane if it is allowed to and not redirected while it isn't under much force at the top of the back swing.  If the club is allowed time to regain the plane it is almost impossible to make it deviate at that time because the club will quickly gather a ton of momentum.  If the arms lifted the club above the plane line in the back swing portion of the swing motion, and you rip the club from the top when it is not under much force, how would you ever regain the proper swing plane?  The fact is you would really struggle to and the club will most like come into impact well above the correct plane. 

 

9 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Just because you said you let it fall doesn't make it so, especially as we can all see you don't. 

 

You could claim a magic vacuum created by Spock pulls it, a golf fairy comes to your aid or the spirit of old Tom Morris enters your body. 

 

You can ramble away with all sorts of diagrams and false musings, why you think we should accept the nonsense is the only bit that confuses me.

 

 

So I went and asked my friend who has a bachelors in physics and he confirmed that the angular momentum in a golf swing is not constant because the golfer is applying and outside force or torque during the swing thus the club will be moving at different velocities during the swing and will not be constant.  He also confirmed that there is an optimal time during a golf swing to assist the momentum that will be most efficient and it will mostly depend on the mass of the club.  He then confirmed that the pushing a kid on a swing (Shawn Clement was the one that I first heard say it) reference is a very good one in trying to time the assistance of the building momentum as the club approaches low point. He is not a golfer by the way. 

[KD1]

I spoke to my doctor and he said eat less and move more. ... As Ive been trying to tell you guys this WHOLE time! /s

 

 

See what I did there?

 

[Righty to Lefty]

20 minutes ago, KD1 said:

I spoke to my doctor and he said eat less and move more. ... As Ive been trying to tell you guys this WHOLE time! /s

 

 

See what I did there?

 

If I was saying what everyone else was saying then there would be agreement even if my delivery isn't mainstream but obviously there isn't as I am being perceived to be against the grain.  Certain people can't find any common ground with what I post. You mean I haven't said one useful thing in this entire thread/ forum in over a decade, or even an "I see what you mean" moment...come on Man!? 

 

I say use the bounce..uproar, I post a video of the very designer of the club stating to use the bounce, uproar cause I posted it.  I say don't yank the club from the top of the back swing ...uproar, I then put up a video clearly showing the difference when a golfer faster by 20 miles per hour's swing takes twice as long but by their rationale he should arrive to impact first....uproar. See what I did there?  

[iacas]

@Pretzel, if you push an angel down a hill, does it have angelar momentum? What if the angel is on a merry-go-round?

 

Bad joke, I know.

 

It takes 0.4986 seconds for something to fall only four feet. Most downswings are 0.2 to 0.25 seconds (from change of direction of the club until impact). Hmmmm, something doesn't add up

[Shilgy]

30 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If I was saying what everyone else was saying then there would be agreement even if my delivery isn't mainstream but obviously there isn't as I am being perceived to be against the grain.  Certain people can't find any common ground with what I post. You mean I haven't said one useful thing in this entire thread/ forum in over a decade, or even an "I see what you mean" moment...come on Man!? 

 

I say use the bounce..uproar, I post a video of the very designer of the club stating to use the bounce, uproar cause I posted it.  I say don't yank the club from the top of the back swing ...uproar, I then put up a video clearly showing the difference when a golfer faster by 20 miles per hour's swing takes twice as long but by their rationale he should arrive to impact first....uproar. See what I did there?  

 

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

There is no scenario where it is beneficial for the club to dig on partial wedge shots...not one.  

 

The club doesn't actually drop  straight down because the body is out in front and leading.  Without rotation, the club would fall to about the trail hip but under rotation it finds the swing plane if it is allowed to and not redirected while it isn't under much force at the top of the back swing.  If the club is allowed time to regain the plane it is almost impossible to make it deviate at that time because the club will quickly gather a ton of momentum.  If the arms lifted the club above the plane line in the back swing portion of the swing motion, and you rip the club from the top when it is not under much force, how would you ever regain the proper swing plane?  The fact is you would really struggle to and the club will most like come into impact well above the correct plane. 

 

So I went and asked my friend who has a bachelors in physics and he confirmed that the angular momentum in a golf swing is not constant because the golfer is applying and outside force or torque during the swing thus the club will be moving at different velocities during the swing and will not be constant.  He also confirmed that there is an optimal time during a golf swing to assist the momentum that will be most efficient and it will mostly depend on the mass of the club.  He then confirmed that the pushing a kid on a swing (Shawn Clement was the one that I first heard say it) reference is a very good one in trying to time the assistance of the building momentum as the club approaches low point. He is not a golfer by the way. 

Well, in one post you mention against the grain(different context granted) and ignore completely it regards to chipping and pitching.

 

Im guessing you’ve played very little, if at all, on Bermuda grass.  Go ahead an attempt to use the bounce into the grain.

Edited January 7 by Shilgy

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Well, in one post you mention against the grain(different context granted) and ignore completely it regards to chipping and pitching.

 

Im guessing you’ve played very little, if at all, on Bermuda grass.  Go ahead an attempt to use the bounce into the grain.

 

Can we not start talking about that in this topic? It's already bad enough (not because of you, obviously). Let's not make it worse. This particular poster has been literally wrong about things (not matters of opinion) for over a decade, and yet he keeps on keepin' on.

 

5 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

You sure try.

 

I don't think I could intentionally get as much wrong as this guy gets wrong if I "tried."

[PedronNiall]

38 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If I was saying what everyone else was saying then there would be agreement even if my delivery isn't mainstream but obviously there isn't as I am being perceived to be against the grain.  Certain people can't find any common ground with what I post. You mean I haven't said one useful thing in this entire thread/ forum in over a decade, or even an "I see what you mean" moment...come on Man!? 

 

I say use the bounce..uproar, I post a video of the very designer of the club stating to use the bounce, uproar cause I posted it.  I say don't yank the club from the top of the back swing ...uproar, I then put up a video clearly showing the difference when a golfer faster by 20 miles per hour's swing takes twice as long but by their rationale he should arrive to impact first....uproar. See what I did there?  

You said Vokey knew what he was talking about regarding bounce when you cherry picked certain aspects of a video that fit your ideal then in the same thread said Vokey was akin to a snake oil salesman for crafting wedges with anything other than high bounce traditional grinds. You literally toss out anything that doesn't align with what you want to believe. Craziest of all you go to your friend with a Bachelors in physics after ignoring someone with advanced degrees and a career in physics & biomechanics. You're beyond words. 

[KD1]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If I was saying what everyone else was saying then there would be agreement even if my delivery isn't mainstream but obviously there isn't as I am being perceived to be against the grain.  Certain people can't find any common ground with what I post. You mean I haven't said one useful thing in this entire thread/ forum in over a decade, or even an "I see what you mean" moment...come on Man!? 

 

I say use the bounce..uproar, I post a video of the very designer of the club stating to use the bounce, uproar cause I posted it.  I say don't yank the club from the top of the back swing ...uproar, I then put up a video clearly showing the difference when a golfer faster by 20 miles per hour's swing takes twice as long but by their rationale he should arrive to impact first....uproar. See what I did there?  

 

Here's some reading material for you. I'm moving on.

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/logic_in_argumentative_writing/fallacies.html

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Craziest of all you go to your friend with a Bachelors in physics after ignoring someone with advanced degrees and a career in physics & biomechanics. You're beyond words. 

 

As a jumping off point… who knows:

• what that "friend" knows about golf
• what that "friend" knows about this thread
• what that "friend" was told as the hypothetical
• what that "friend" actually said and how it was "interpreted"

The fact of the matter is that the last half or third of the backswing, the golfer is applying force and torque in the downswing direction (first to slow the club down in the backswing, and then to make the downswing), and that continues through the hit. The force across the shaft is actually at pretty low values from P6 to P7.

 

If only there were PhDs out there with videos on this? Oh, there are? I'm going by the thumbnail, but my hunch is that this video might speak to the downswing stuff. But, it's only eight years old at this point, so I'm not sure it's old enough for some to have found it. 😉 

[mikpga]

About 6.5 to 7.5 would you say BM?

[Hidraw]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

As a jumping off point… who knows:

• what that "friend" knows about golf
• what that "friend" knows about this thread
• what that "friend" was told as the hypothetical
• what that "friend" actually said and how it was "interpreted"

The fact of the matter is that the last half or third of the backswing, the golfer is applying force and torque in the downswing direction (first to slow the club down in the backswing, and then to make the downswing), and that continues through the hit. The force across the shaft is actually at pretty low values from P6 to P7.

 

If only there were PhDs out there with videos on this? Oh, there are? I'm going by the thumbnail, but my hunch is that this video might speak to the downswing stuff. But, it's only eight years old at this point, so I'm not sure it's old enough for some to have found it. 😉 

Thanks @iacas for that video.  Dr Sacho Mackenzie presentation is excellent in content and graphic.  But I found that the focus on moment couple at the hands not to be so much relevant to hackers like me, especially how the club moves from (translation + rotation) from P4 to P6 (transition) and from P6 and beyond (release).

To me, the lead arm and hand act as passive lever and hinge, and forces and torques about them are reactive.  I would rather focus on direct forces and torques generated by the golfer.  And hence, although I am not a disciple of The Golfing Machine, I find the concept of the Left-Arm Flying Wedge very relevant here as an object to be manipulated by the golfer, especially during transition.

Let do our study on the Hogan's Plane of Glass as below at the top of swing.


The topic under discussion here if how to move the Left-Arm Flying Wedge during transition - P4 to P6.

The mechanical principle applicable here is that when a force is applied to an object with direction offset from the center of mass of the object, the object will rotate.

Here, we rotate the  object - the Left-Arm Flying Wedge to from P4 to P6 by initially accelerate our lead shoulder forward.  This is essentially a tugging action where the gofer pivot tugs the Left-Arm Flying Wedge.

For an effective tug, we need a stretched tension of the lead side from the lead hip to the lead shoulder through the arm.  We also want to use the large muscles in our legs and core.  My goto intent is to use the trail leg to propel the pelvis forward; the lead hip thus tugs the lead shoulder and the lead shoulder tugs the Left-Arm Flying Wedge to rotate downward. 

Forget the word bump or the Ernie Els's smoothie,  the forward propulsion of the pelvis  by the trail leg could be explosive like shooting a cannon ball forward.

Now back to the current regular programming, we can imagine another plane of glass or rather Jim Waldron's Left Wall.  The discussion is how should we release to snap the whole club and the clubface onto the Left Wall.  The same machanical principle is applicable here.  The lead leg upon catching the pelvis cannon ball extend to propel the lead hip and consequently the lead shoulder upward along the Left Wall in the direction away from the target line.

Of course, there are more pieces in the jigsaw puzzles of a golf swing, like the actions of the trail side.

We need congruences in mechanical principles, intent, feels and reals.  Knowing relevant mechanical princliples with intent to correctly apply them provides good feels and real results.

It is a Work in Progress for me.