Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[PedronNiall]

So to sum up, precision instruments and basic physics show us that the golfer via the applied forces of their body does 60 times the work of the force of gravity--240 Joules vs 4 done by gravity--but we are to conclude that a multiple long drive winner hits the ball over 400 yards by letting his hands and the club fall together then stopping the handle? I don't understand how someone comes up with such tripe. I also don't understand how someone refuses to admit they are wrong in an objective discussion when they are objectively wrong. As stated in this thread and others, R2L cannot ever admit when he is wrong or has misunderstood something.  

 

At this point the only good thing about this thread is that rational souls have stepped in and provided fact so that others might not get lost in the lies and inanity. It was certainly a loss for the world when some great minds were unable to share knowledge because they lacked a platform, but using the current ease of sharing information to spread blatantly untrue premises is by far a worse situation. There's nothing of substance serving as the basis of this thread. 

[teddyironboy]

I think I have created a swing for myself that has 0 pull (at least from the top) and is shallowed completely from the body pivot (I think anyways. I have gotten into debates about other stuff and have been very wrong on what biomechanics is going on). Like the club just seems to fall into the slot and square itself. Maybe I'll get a swing posted. But basically the gist of it is:

 

- Swaying back a bit is key. Because when your body comes forward in transition to recenter, lead shoulder will automatically pull your lead arm forward and down too without you having to yank on it. Imagine the opposite, if you did a reverse pivot. Your body would have to go back (trail side) to recenter, and the distance between your arms and body will shorten, basically a yanking motion. Crude drawing, right side is recentering the body: https://i.imgur.com/jekk2Ty.png. That being said many young guys can shallow a ton without swaying. Maybe they just create so much torque through their pivot and flexibility. But I'm mid 30's I can't do that.
- As you recenter, still try to keep the arms up or moving back even. Some call it slowing down the arms in transition. But you don't want to be like forcing it up. More like the momentum of the first half of the backswing to carry the club up and kinda let your arms go along for the ride. If you're still trying to force the club up in transition, it'll still shallow out but it's going to really affect your swing speed.

 

I think taking the arms completely out of it and having it be all momentum, the club is just swinging and squaring by itself. Firing your arms is still fine after transition I think without hitting a big hook or slice - I think because there is so much momentum already at that point and the lead shoulder going internal, it's hard to overpower the club's intended path and face.

 

I got some receipts - what recent sessions have looked like. Feel like I'm really onto something. But you guys know how golf goes whenever you think you've got it all figured out (and I'm a little scared typing this post). It's all downhill from here. 😂

 

Edited January 14 by teddyironboy

[johnrobison]

15 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You've got to be kidding me. I am not talking about the time for the whole swing..I am talking about how they both arrive at the top of the backswing at the same time and very close to the same position and yet DeChambeau gets to impact twice as fast and it is obvious to see that they aren't in dramatically different positions at the top of the backswing. If Berkshire had a swing length like John Daly...different story... but trying to make is seem like we are comparing Rahm's swing length to John Daly's is ridiculous.  

 

I had seen Dr. Mackenzie's video before and watched it multiple times and HE literally says that the golfer begins to apply a negative couple to the club and the golfer begins to work in the opposite direction of the direction the club head is traveling. Well if the golfer is opposite of the club head, because the golfer is holding onto the grip end of the club...how the else would the athlete apply force in the opposite direction of the club head? A braking force is being applied to the grip end of the club at just below shaft parallel and Dr. Mackenzie stated as much.   If the athlete worked in the same direction as the club head then maximum leverage would never be achieved because it wouldn't be transferred onward to the club head.  DeChambeau is also not as efficient because he fully transfers his leverage after impact has all ready occurred because his knees were still in flexion at impact.  

 

That braking force that was demonstrated in that pump drill is precisely the force that I speak about creating in the stop the handle drill and I assure you that it is happening regardless of if the athlete realizes it or not.  I stated in my stop the handle video that without rotation there is a tremendous amount of force that is felt in the hands and wrists and they have to work very hard to support it, but with rotation you can't perceive it and that statement is very much inline with what Dr. Mackenzie stated about the negative couple and what Borgmeier displayed by braking so aggressively that he snapped the shaft.  Twaddell says that he feels a pull from the top of the backswing but he also says that his number one focus is maintaining width and trying to keep his trail arm as straight as possible and you simply can't pull too hard from that position and I encourage anyone that reads this to grab a club and try that double pump drill and you will quickly see that you can't pull very hard the straighter your arms remain and that there is an obvious braking force being applied to the handle end of the club and when you do that same thing yet don't restrict your rotation that the force is no longer felt in the hands because it is transferred onward to the club head....but it is still there...it is just that restricting the rotation shows you just how much force was created and the better you are at braking the faster you will be.  

 

Yeah but your feel wasn't real so you couldn't have possibly been using a gravity arm drop because it isn't possible...see how I did that!!!  

 

So much wrong. I mean.......... wow.

I just can't anymore.

[iacas]

In the worlds of some, 2+2 = a cherry cheesecake.

 

And I love a cherry cheesecake, but it’s not the answer here.

P.S. Me clearly not pulling down with straight arms: 🤣

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

A pull down is like an arm wrestling move the top. Going internal with right arm and elbow behind, hands towards the ball with a pulling motion. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

A pull down is like an arm wrestling move the top. Going internal with right arm and elbow behind, hands towards the ball with a pulling motion. 

 

If I was asked to list all of the ways one could "pull down" from the top, that would be on the list, but it definitely wouldn't be first. Or second. Or third.

[Righty to Lefty]

Shawn Clement just made this video this morning and in my opinion this is golf in a nutshell.  If you keep the the focus on where it needs to be, which is impact and creating and preparing the body for the force it is about to create, your swing motion will smooth itself out in time.  I also said in another thread earlier that if your club's are heavy enough you will quickly learn that it is not efficient to pull on the club and Shawn demonstrates this perfectly when he swings the ax.  The patience that he is demonstrating before assisting the momentum of the ax is precisely what I am talking about when I say there is a patience required because the hips need time to get out and lead.  

 

 

@MonteScheinblum (LOL!!) you have some explaining to do also because when I say don't pull on the club from the top of the backswing I get ridiculed by the forum elders, but when you say it it's cool apparently! You are not demonstrating a pulling motion in what you said that you were working on ( the video will play from the part I am talking about) and are very much demonstrating a falling action and this is precisely what I suggest as it is a more efficient way than pulling on the club. 

 

If the elders want to say that all golfers pull on the club as that is what is actually happening to the club regardless of whether they feel passive or not...fine...but they better be really clear in making sure that golfers know the difference because I assure you that 99.999% of the golfers in this forum if told to pull down on the club from the top of the backswing will do precisely what you said you were trying to avoid.

 

If you were trying to let the shaft lay down like you demonstrate, but also pull on the club, we are no longer playing golf and would need to be playing baseball to be efficient and effective!! 

@PedronNiall, @KD1, @johnrobison

 

 

 

On 1/14/2024 at 7:56 AM, iacas said:

In the worlds of some, 2+2 = a cherry cheesecake.

 

And I love a cherry cheesecake, but it’s not the answer here.

P.S. Me clearly not pulling down with straight arms: 🤣

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_0414.mov 8.26 MB · 15 downloads  

 

The Shawn Clement video addresses precisely why the motion you are making is slow and inefficient as I am 100% certain you will have thrown away all your leverage by the time you would arrive to impact.  

Edited January 15 by Righty to Lefty

[KD1]

Why am I getting roped into this?

 

..oh I guess I did comment early on. My mistake.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:43 PM, PedronNiall said:

So to sum up, precision instruments and basic physics show us that the golfer via the applied forces of their body does 60 times the work of the force of gravity--240 Joules vs 4 done by gravity--but we are to conclude that a multiple long drive winner hits the ball over 400 yards by letting his hands and the club fall together then stopping the handle? I don't understand how someone comes up with such tripe. I also don't understand how someone refuses to admit they are wrong in an objective discussion when they are objectively wrong. As stated in this thread and others, R2L cannot ever admit when he is wrong or has misunderstood something.  

 

At this point the only good thing about this thread is that rational souls have stepped in and provided fact so that others might not get lost in the lies and inanity. It was certainly a loss for the world when some great minds were unable to share knowledge because they lacked a platform, but using the current ease of sharing information to spread blatantly untrue premises is by far a worse situation. There's nothing of substance serving as the basis of this thread. 

So when Dr. Sasho says "at below shaft parallel the golfer begins to work in the the opposite direction (negative couple) the club head is traveling in" what you think that means other than a braking force being applied to the handle end of the club because the golfer is holding onto the club opposite of the club head?  I also keep saying that the upper body is passive for a time to allow the hips to get out in front and lead and without rotation and structure that the club would fall to the trail hip from the top of the back swing and it would but this patience is what keeps the kinematic sequence in tact where force is transfers from the ground to the club head. I also state that you have to be patient for that to happen and apparently Monte agrees with me per the video that I posted because if you aren't/ shouldn't be pulling on the club from the top of the backswing as he stated then what else is there to do but be passive and wait for the time when you can assist the momentum of the club?

[KD1]

19 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

you have some explaining to do also because when I say don't pull on the club from the top of the backswing I get ridiculed by the forum elders, but when you say it it's cool apparently!

No dude. You get ridiculed when you say things like let gravity take it until p6 and use simple models of planetary orbit to prove your point. And post videos of Berkshire clearly going as hard as he can from at least p5 and claiming that proves your point. And arguing with instructors who teach thousands of students a year that the best way is your way.

[MK7Golf21]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

If I was asked to list all of the ways one could "pull down" from the top, that would be on the list, but it definitely wouldn't be first. Or second. Or third.

 

tbh, I don't even know what a pull down truly is, probably multiple definitions out there and I don't really have an issue with it. I got that definition from an AMG video in which is was the 1st of two major faults they see with shallowing calling it the "arm wresting" or "pull down" move. Kind of lines up with pulling the hands towards the ball move I've also heard it defined as from Monte so I went with it. 

 

 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

tbh, I don't even know what a pull down truly is, probably multiple definitions out there and I don't really have an issue with it. I got that definition from an AMG video in which is was the 1st of two major faults they see with shallowing calling it the "arm wresting" or "pull down" move. Kind of lines up with pulling the hands towards the ball move I've also heard it defined as from Monte so I went with it. 

 

 

Yeah. I’m just saying that’s not what I picture when someone says they pull down. Sergio has talked about it and he goes the other way with the shaft.

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Shawn Clement just made this video this morning and in my opinion this is golf in a nutshell.  If you keep the the focus on where it needs to be, which is impact and creating and preparing the body for the force it is about to create, your swing motion will smooth itself out in time.  I also said in another thread earlier that if your club's are heavy enough you will quickly learn that it is not efficient to pull on the club and Shawn demonstrates this perfectly when he swings the ax.  The patience that he is demonstrating before assisting the momentum of the ax is precisely what I am talking about when I say there is a patience required because the hips need time to get out and lead.  

 

 

@MonteScheinblum (LOL!!) you have some explaining to do also because when I say don't pull on the club from the top of the backswing I get ridiculed by the forum elders, but when you say it it's cool apparently! You are not demonstrating a pulling motion in what you said that you were working on ( the video will play from the part I am talking about) and are very much demonstrating a falling action and this is precisely what I suggest as it is a more efficient way than pulling on the club. 

 

If the elders want to say that all golfers pull on the club as that is what is actually happening to the club regardless of whether they feel passive or not...fine...but they better be really clear in making sure that golfers know the difference because I assure you that 99.999% of the golfers in this forum if told to pull down on the club from the top of the backswing will do precisely what you said you were trying to avoid.

 

If you were trying to let the shaft lay down like you demonstrate, but also pull on the club, we are no longer playing golf and would need to be playing baseball to be efficient and effective!! 

@PedronNiall, @KD1, @johnrobison

 

 

 

The Shawn Clement video addresses precisely why the motion you are making is slow and inefficient as I am 100% certain you will have thrown away all your leverage by the time you would arrive to impact.  

Are you ever going to address the fact that in your own swing you are very clearly applying a tremendous amount of force to the shaft LONG before P6 and in no way are just allowing the arms and club to fall with gravity? 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Are you ever going to address the fact that in your own swing you are very clearly applying a tremendous amount of force to the shaft LONG before P6 and in no way are just allowing the arms and club to fall with gravity? 

Don't we know the answer to that? 🤣

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/14/2024 at 6:15 AM, teddyironboy said:

I think I have created a swing for myself that has 0 pull (at least from the top) and is shallowed completely from the body pivot (I think anyways. I have gotten into debates about other stuff and have been very wrong on what biomechanics is going on). Like the club just seems to fall into the slot and square itself. Maybe I'll get a swing posted. But basically the gist of it is:

 

- Swaying back a bit is key. Because when your body comes forward in transition to recenter, lead shoulder will automatically pull your lead arm forward and down too without you having to yank on it. Imagine the opposite, if you did a reverse pivot. Your body would have to go back (trail side) to recenter, and the distance between your arms and body will shorten, basically a yanking motion. Crude drawing, right side is recentering the body: https://i.imgur.com/jekk2Ty.png. That being said many young guys can shallow a ton without swaying. Maybe they just create so much torque through their pivot and flexibility. But I'm mid 30's I can't do that.
- As you recenter, still try to keep the arms up or moving back even. Some call it slowing down the arms in transition. But you don't want to be like forcing it up. More like the momentum of the first half of the backswing to carry the club up and kinda let your arms go along for the ride. If you're still trying to force the club up in transition, it'll still shallow out but it's going to really affect your swing speed.

 

I think taking the arms completely out of it and having it be all momentum, the club is just swinging and squaring by itself. Firing your arms is still fine after transition I think without hitting a big hook or slice - I think because there is so much momentum already at that point and the lead shoulder going internal, it's hard to overpower the club's intended path and face.

 

I got some receipts - what recent sessions have looked like. Feel like I'm really onto something. But you guys know how golf goes whenever you think you've got it all figured out (and I'm a little scared typing this post). It's all downhill from here. 😂

 

Keep testing and reporting back your findings as you will be better for it in the long run I assure you.  

[teddyironboy]

2 days after the post still getting similar dispersion. Don’t know if I’m stopping the handle like you say or snapping/releasing. My guess is hit response is coming well after transition maybe P4.5. But it’s not a conscious reaction. Is subconscious but active hands a thing?

 

Body motion has to be on point though. Need to use the body to get the momentum going in the right places. But yea can’t imagine conscious active hands being better for myself at least.

[MonteScheinblum]

Let’s put golf aside for a second.  I use this when I discuss passive arms in lessons all the time.

 

Track sprinters are seen warming up by pumping their arms as fast as they can.  Over the last couple of days I tried to find one person who said the arms should, be passive in track sprinting.

 

I didn’t find one.  The only conflicting opinions I found were how much they affect speed and how they are used.

 

The more force the arms apply on the downward stoke, the more force the legs and feet apply to the ground.

 

I found dozens of videos showing how if you move your arms faster, you legs will move faster.  Also an article from a former Olympic sprinter saying how to do it.

 

I also found data that said that when the arms weren’t active, the body has to use more energy and fatigues sooner, which was important for distance runners.

 

I found one article particularly interesting where it listed all the poor arm actions that hurt sprinters…….coincidently, all of these things are common problems for golfers too.

 

• Arms excessively crossing the midline of the body.
• Arms staying too square to the shoulder line.
• Arms swinging too passively on downward stroke.
• Arms not swinging and excessively bending.
• Arms too rigid and not allowing enough unfolding.
• Arms not symmetrically balanced in all planes of movement.

It’s amazing a sport where the arms and hands aren’t directly connected to the movement, but have the same positive and negative affects as golf.  Just like golf, excessive, passive and incorrect use is not optimal.  Read that again……I said excessive use is just as bad as passive.  False dichotomy #1956.  Active doesn’t mean excessive or tense.

[iacas]

I'm just going to add to the list of things @Righty to Lefty ignores because he doesn't actually understand what's being said:

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If you keep the the focus on where it needs to be, which is impact and creating and preparing the body for the force it is about to create, your swing motion will smooth itself out in time.

 

Except when it doesn't. Stuff's not "automatic" nearly as often as swing theory charlatans like to think it is.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The patience that he is demonstrating before assisting the momentum of the ax

 

Except that we've measured this, and people are putting force into the club essentially the entire downswing. You are wrong on this.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

@MonteScheinblum (LOL!!) you have some explaining to do also because when I say don't pull on the club from the top of the backswing I get ridiculed by the forum elders, but when you say it it's cool apparently!

 

Does the "no turn cast" put force into the club almost immediately on the downswing? Yep. You're (attempting to) skate through by relying on a really ambiguous definition of "pulling."

 

Monte's demonstration showed him almost pulling the club INTO himself. Nobody here is suggesting you do that.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

(the video will play from the part I am talking about) and are very much demonstrating a falling action and this is precisely what I suggest as it is a more efficient way than pulling on the club.

 

He's actively putting force into the club through his hands and moving the club that way. He's not letting the club fall. #FeelAintReal

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the elders want to say that all golfers pull on the club as that is what is actually happening to the club regardless of whether they feel passive or not...fine...but they better be really clear in making sure that golfers know the difference because I assure you that 99.999% of the golfers in this forum if told to pull down on the club from the top of the backswing will do precisely what you said you were trying to avoid.

 

Keep skating. Golfers apply a force (beyond gravity) into the club right almost the entire downswing.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The Shawn Clement video addresses precisely why the motion you are making is slow and inefficient as I am 100% certain you will have thrown away all your leverage by the you would arrive to impact.  

 

The video I recorded is not showing a "golf swing." It is showing how you can still "pull down" while the arms are straight, as it speaks to this:

 

On 1/13/2024 at 4:45 PM, Righty to Lefty said:

Twaddell says that he feels a pull from the top of the backswing but he also says that his number one focus is maintaining width and trying to keep his trail arm as straight as possible and you simply can't pull too hard from that position and I encourage anyone that reads this to grab a club and try that double pump drill and you will quickly see that you can't pull very hard the straighter your arms remain…

 

Also, you're doubly wrong here, as long drivers generally do NOT keep the trail arm wide, as it would really shorten the hand path and remove a lever:

 

 

I mean, you keep citing stuff like this, when… a world long drive champ that posts here disagrees with almost everything you ever say. And can back it up with more than just feels or misinterpreting what's said in a video.

 

And, as is typical, you've skated right past my pointing out to you of the timestamps that refute your oft-stated BS about how Kyle's downswing takes twice as long as Bryson's. As well as a BUNCH of other things that directly refute your other BS.

 

Again.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

So when Dr. Sasho says "at below shaft parallel the golfer begins to work in the the opposite direction (negative couple) the club head is traveling in" what you think that means other than a braking force being applied to the handle end of the club because the golfer is holding onto the club opposite of the club head?

 

Oy. You keep misinterpreting that video, and it's not even funny anymore. Let's try the fifth grade version here:

 

imagine a block sitting on a frictionless surface. If you apply a force to that block, it will not only travel in that direction, it will accelerate in that direction as long as that force is positive in that direction. Remove the force and the block slides at a constant speed, but stops accelerating. With me so far?

 

Now imagine that the block slides into a really long, soft spring immediately after the force is removed (i.e. goes to zero)… the net forces acting on the block will "go negative" right then because there's a force being applied to the block in the opposite direction. The block negatively accelerates (decelerates), but for awhile, it continues to slide (move) in the original direction. Until all the original speed is bled off, it keeps moving in the original direction.

 

The club in Sasho's videos is rotating counter-clockwise. At some point, it's going to slow down and come to a stop, but it never begins rotating the other direction (unless the golfer recoils like Tiger does sometimes, I guess). Negative forces don't immediately reverse the direction, they just slow the thing down.

 

What can slow it down? Lots of things… like even the lead hand fingers being on the back of the club. Since the club is trying to rotate counter-clockwise (righty, face-on), it's eventually going to kind of pull on the fingers. If the club kept accelerating, it'd rip out of the golfer's lead hand.

 

It's above fifth-grade level physics, but the red arrow moves throughout the swing, too. This changes the math a bit and again moves the discussion beyond the fifth-grade physics above, but I wanted to point it out:

 

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I also keep saying that the upper body is passive for a time to allow the hips to get out in front

 

And you keep being wrong about it, yeah. We know.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I also state that you have to be patient for that to happen and apparently Monte agrees with me per the video

 

I assure you he does not.

 

37 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

False dichotomy #1956.  Active doesn’t mean excessive or tense.

 

Yep.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

No dude. You get ridiculed when you say things like let gravity take it until p6 and use simple models of planetary orbit to prove your point. And post videos of Berkshire clearly going as hard as he can from at least p5 and claiming that proves your point. And arguing with instructors who teach thousands of students a year that the best way is your way.

Yup you got it bro...so when I post just ignore it and move on cause it wasn't meant for you.  I videoed those swings precisely because I wanted to see what it looked like being very passive until late in my swing motion.  I am not pulling on the club because that is exactly why I made the video in the first place but you and the elders got it. I apparently have nothing forward thinking that I can possibly add to these threads so I'll let you guys have it and the whole thread will be playing at scratch or better in no time and I hope this is what actually happens.    

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I'm just going to add to the list of things @Righty to Lefty ignores because he doesn't actually understand what's being said:

 

 

Except when it doesn't. Stuff's not "automatic" nearly as often as swing theory charlatans like to think it is.

 

 

Except that we've measured this, and people are putting force into the club essentially the entire downswing. You are wrong on this.

 

 

Does the "no turn cast" put force into the club almost immediately on the downswing? Yep. You're (attempting to) skate through by relying on a really ambiguous definition of "pulling."

 

Monte's demonstration showed him almost pulling the club INTO himself. Nobody here is suggesting you do that.

 

 

He's actively putting force into the club through his hands and moving the club that way. He's not letting the club fall. #FeelAintReal

 

 

Keep skating. Golfers apply a force (beyond gravity) into the club right almost the entire downswing.

 

 

The video I recorded is not showing a "golf swing." It is showing how you can still "pull down" while the arms are straight, as it speaks to this:

 

 

Also, you're doubly wrong here, as long drivers generally do NOT keep the trail arm wide, as it would really shorten the hand path and remove a lever:

 

 

I mean, you keep citing stuff like this, when… a world long drive champ that posts here disagrees with almost everything you ever say. And can back it up with more than just feels or misinterpreting what's said in a video.

 

And, as is typical, you've skated right past my pointing out to you of the timestamps that refute your oft-stated BS about how Kyle's downswing takes twice as long as Bryson's. As well as a BUNCH of other things that directly refute your other BS.

 

Again.

 

 

Oy. You keep misinterpreting that video, and it's not even funny anymore. Let's try the fifth grade version here:

 

imagine a block sitting on a frictionless surface. If you apply a force to that block, it will not only travel in that direction, it will accelerate in that direction as long as that force is positive in that direction. Remove the force and the block slides at a constant speed, but stops accelerating. With me so far?

 

Now imagine that the block slides into a really long, soft spring immediately after the force is removed (i.e. goes to zero)… the net forces acting on the block will "go negative" right then because there's a force being applied to the block in the opposite direction. The block negatively accelerates (decelerates), but for awhile, it continues to slide (move) in the original direction. Until all the original speed is bled off, it keeps moving in the original direction.

 

The club in Sasho's videos is rotating counter-clockwise. At some point, it's going to slow down and come to a stop, but it never begins rotating the other direction (unless the golfer recoils like Tiger does sometimes, I guess). Negative forces don't immediately reverse the direction, they just slow the thing down.

 

What can slow it down? Lots of things… like even the lead hand fingers being on the back of the club. Since the club is trying to rotate counter-clockwise (righty, face-on), it's eventually going to kind of pull on the fingers. If the club kept accelerating, it'd rip out of the golfer's lead hand.

 

It's above fifth-grade level physics, but the red arrow moves throughout the swing, too. This changes the math a bit and again moves the discussion beyond the fifth-grade physics above, but I wanted to point it out:

 

 

 

And you keep being wrong about it, yeah. We know.

 

 

I assure you he does not.

 

 

Yep.

Right on you got it Man...I'm sure everyone will be scratch or better in no time. Peace out. 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yup you got it bro...so when I post just ignore it and move on cause it wasn't meant for you.

 

Nah. When someone posts BAD information, I think it's important that it's called out as such lest some people take silence as agreement or endorsement.

 

You post a lot of literally wrong information. I have a background in the sciences — consider this your peer review. @KD1 is allowed to comment if he wants to. And, you specifically tagged him, "bro."

 

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I videoed those swings precisely because I wanted to see what it looked like being very passive until late in my swing motion.  

 

You weren't.

 

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am not pulling on the club

 

You are.

 

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I apparently have nothing forward thinking

 

That might be the most accurate thing you've said in the last few weeks.

 

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

…and the whole thread will be playing at scratch or better in no time and I hope this is what actually happens.    

 

More bull-poo. Nobody's saying anything like that. They're just pointing out where you and your alter ego get things wrong, or ignore the points made against you.

 

11 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Right on you got it Man...I'm sure everyone will be scratch or better in no time. Peace out. 

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm just going to add to the list of things @Righty to Lefty ignores because he doesn't actually understand what's being said:

 

Called it.

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

• Arms excessively crossing the midline of the body.
• Arms staying too square to the shoulder line.
• Arms swinging too passively on downward stroke.
• Arms not swinging and excessively bending.
• Arms too rigid and not allowing enough unfolding.
• Arms not symmetrically balanced in all planes of movement.

What's really interesting to me about this is the overlaps with general coordination and mobility, especially developmentally. My partner is an OT that works with developmentally disabled kids ages 3-12 and we talk a lot (within HIPAA guidelines of course) about their various difficulties in movement/coordination. Deficiencies in muscle tone and resting muscle resistance leading to issues with postural stability and bilateral coordination, the complete inability to even cross midline being a common feature in these kids. The spectrum of motor dyspraxia and it's severity feels relevant here and it wouldn't surprise me if those of us that have the most difficulty in these areas were somewhere on said spectrum, especially with the waking nightmare that is the moving parts of a golf swing.

[johnrobison]

17 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the elders want to say that all golfers pull on the club as that is what is actually happening to the club regardless of whether they feel passive or not...fine...but they better be really clear in making sure that golfers know the difference because I assure you that 99.999% of the golfers in this forum if told to pull down on the club from the top of the backswing will do precisely what you said you were trying to avoid.

 

It's not about who is saying all golfers pull on the club. What being said is that the data proves it. It's been measured. Regardless, if you are saying to be passive, don't you have to be at least as clear and say that the arms aren't truly passive, you just feel like they are? Otherwise, 99% of golfers will struggle to get the club on the ball, never releasing their arms.

17 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I also said in another thread earlier that if your club's are heavy enough you will quickly learn that it is not efficient to pull on the club and Shawn demonstrates this perfectly when he swings the ax.  The patience that he is demonstrating before assisting the momentum of the ax is precisely what I am talking about when I say there is a patience required because the hips need time to get out and lead. 

Except that he didn't actually swing the axe - he just pretended to. If you've ever swung one, which I have plenty of times, you would know that there is nothing passive about it. The arms are doing a tremendous amount of work. And to get a golf club head to travel at the speed necessary to hit the ball well, the arms are moving even faster than that. Again, faster than the acceleration of gravity. The match simply doesn't work out.

 

Quick question: Do you disagree with the results of the measurements taken by Dr Nesbit? Would you tell him that he got it wrong and that good players don't apply force to the club until later in the swing?

[Hidraw]

I see @Righty to Lefty as having good intention, the problem lies in his intepretation and expression of his intention and feels.

1. Do not pull the club from the top of the backswing.
He should have qualified that to do not use your arms and hands to directly pull the club from the top of swing.
Of course, you need to pull or tug the club, not gravity, but where is the motor that generate the motions.
From @Zitlow's video post below, it is apparent that the motor during transition is the lower body, while the upper body is passive and I view it as a big rotor to be oriented and given initial rotation by the lower body motor to P6.  So, the lower body pull the club from the top.

 

On 1/12/2024 at 10:46 PM, Zitlow said:

The clubhead is the last link in the chain. If some people want to cast making the clubhead the first link that's okay. 

 

 

 

The unfolding comes behind the shift not in front of the shift but if some of you want to drop your arms or pull with your left arm be my guest. 

 

 

 

2 Stop the handle late in the swing.
My interpretation is from the immortal Hogan's demonstration in the Ed Sullivan's Show.

During the swing around impact, the lead arm is being tucked with the upper lead arm glued to the torso, clearing way for the trail arm to swing through.  This creates the moment couple of the hands as studied by Sacho Mackenzie and interpreted by @Righty to Lefty as stopping the handle.   It is in fact stopping the lead arm and lead hand relative to the torso.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Hidraw said:

From @Zitlow's video post below, it is apparent that the motor during transition is the lower body, while the upper body is passive and I view it as a big rotor to be oriented and given initial rotation by the lower body motor to P6.  So, the lower body pull the club from the top.

 

But… the "upper body" is not passive until anywhere near P6 (or even P5), and as usual, he's confusing his feels with what is really occurring. This "passive and let gravity do the work" is one of the many things on which he is factually wrong.

 

6 hours ago, Hidraw said:

2 Stop the handle late in the swing.

…
During the swing around impact, the lead arm is being tucked with the upper lead arm glued to the torso, clearing way for the trail arm to swing through.  This creates the moment couple of the hands as studied by Sacho Mackenzie and interpreted by @Righty to Lefty as stopping the handle. It is in fact stopping the lead arm and lead hand relative to the torso.

 

But… it isn't. The hands actually move across the chest in this phase, and nothing Ben Hogan demonstrated there shows him "stopping the handle."

 

The hands do slow down somewhat (negative acceleration) after about P5.5, but they're not "braking." They're being braked slightly by the clubhead "releasing" to the ball, just as the hips were "braked" by the chest releasing, and just as the chest is "braked" by the arms going in the proper sequencing.

 

And… it's no longer "good intentions" when someone refuses to learn, when someone debates in an intellectually dishonest way… for over a decade.

[Simpsonia]

6 hours ago, Hidraw said:

 

During the swing around impact, the lead arm is being tucked with the upper lead arm glued to the torso, clearing way for the trail arm to swing through.  This creates the moment couple of the hands as studied by Sacho Mackenzie and interpreted by @Righty to Lefty as stopping the handle.   It is in fact stopping the lead arm and lead hand relative to the torso.

 

This is also definitely not what happens in the swing either, and has long since been disproved by 3D measurement. In pretty much every good swing, the lead arm is adducting (leaving the chest) through impact. There is a slight bit of abduction at the start of transition, but continuously adducts through the rest of the downswing. In fact, most pros end up with the lead arm further off the chest at impact than they were at address. 

 

 

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

This is also definitely not what happens in the swing either, and has long since been disproved by 3D measurement. In pretty much every good swing, the lead arm is adducting (leaving the chest) through impact. There is a slight bit of abduction at the start of transition, but continuously adducts through the rest of the downswing. In fact, most pros end up with the lead arm further off the chest at impact than they were at address.

 

Yep. It takes a lot of force to adduct the lead arm against the torso that's rotating in the downswing direction. Truly passive arms would be see major abduction of the lead arm the entire downswing, or at least until the range of motion was reached or the torso began slowing.

 

As has been pointed out many times… we've measured and know these things. They're considered factual information. #FeelAintReal

[Simpsonia]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Yep. It takes a lot of force to adduct the lead arm against the torso that's rotating in the downswing direction. Truly passive arms would be see major abduction of the lead arm the entire downswing, or at least until the range of motion was reached or the torso began slowing.

 

As has been pointed out many times… we've measured and know these things. They're considered factual information. #FeelAintReal

 

 

This is one of those times I wish there was some way us ordinary hackers could access 3D data (or at least analytical hackers like myself). My theory is that the lead arm adduction is mostly caused by trail arm extension from the top of the backswing. Because, if your trail arm extends, there's only two directions that the hands can go: 1) down towards the waist, which there may be some of; or 2) out away from the chest which moves the hands towards the centerline, causing adduction of that lead arm. Then it makes sense if the trail arm is extending rapidly from the top (going back to iteach's legendary thread of that you can't extend the trail arm too fast in the downswing), that would cause the hands to move towards your centerline and require you to speed the body up to make room (to go back to Monte's dead horse of speeding up the arms to speed up the body). This also would kind of make sense with Rory's straight (trail) arm pump drill to get that trail arm to extend as fast as possible. Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the data? 

Edited January 17 by Simpsonia

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

This is one of those times I wish there was some way us ordinary hackers could access 3D data (or at least analytical hackers like myself). My theory is that the lead arm adduction is mostly caused by trail arm extension from the top of the backswing.

 

I think from studies I read a long time ago it's typically that the trail elbow extending supplies the majority of that motion, but it's not always the majority and it's not like it's 85/15 even when it is (in a normal, able-bodied golfer).

 

But, yeah, adduction of the lead arm can be a little pulling of the lead arm and a little pushing of the trail arm. It's the closest you get to TGM's hitter/swinger type stuff, IMO… with literally every two-armed capable person being a blending of both.

 

12 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

Then it makes sense if the trail arm is extending rapidly from the top (going back to iteach's legendary thread of that you can't extend the trail arm too fast in the downswing), that would cause the hands to move towards your centerline and require you to speed the body up to make room (to go back to Monte's dead horse of speeding up the arms to speed up the body). This also would kind of make sense with Rory's straight (trail) arm pump drill to get that trail arm to extend as fast as possible. Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the data? 

 

No, no fundamental misunderstanding there. A lot of credit given to the first people you saw talking about it, ha ha, but no real misunderstandings. 😄 

 

 

 

[Hidraw]

No need for 3d data.  






Cut and paste from another thread.