Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

But if not enough fish bite, I'll give up the discussion.

 

It's off topic here. So again:

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

I recommend you start your own topic.

[betarhoalphadelta]

57 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

Great to have a real engineer here.
I have a couple of mechanical problems I am chewing on relating to the discussion in this thread, with some ideas to be verified.
1.  Understanding the trace of the instaneous centers of curvature in the Nesbit's Numerical Model,
2.  The application of conservation of angular momentum in a golf swing.
The two issues may be related.

Are they interesting enough for you to get involved in a physics discussion?
 

 

Admittedly, I'm an electrical engineer, not mechanical. So I'm not the one for a true "deep dive" as I haven't had to study mechanics since my senior year of high school. I took the AP calculus-based version of physics in HS and although my university wouldn't accept my '5' score on the AP test, they allowed me to take the final for their required mechanics course which I passed so I earned the credit and didn't have to repeat it in college. 

 

But as iacas suggests, if you want to start a new thread doing deep dives on physics, I suspect not only that you'll get some takers, but that it'll get it out of this train wreck of a thread. 

[GolfTurkey]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Thank you! That was it. I could have sworn it was more of my usual length, and my memory of it was that it was well before Christmas, not right after.

 

Merci beaucoup. You're welcome to come for a free hour of GEARS any time in 2024.

Ah beware the veteran instructor bait and switch move.

 

I can see @Valtiel getting all excited when he sees the fancy sim room with the sensors lying on the table, then the look of confusion when he’s led past that into the storeroom with only a flickering fluorescent light and a small tv in the corner connected to an XBox 360.

 

Then it dawns on him…

 

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

At this point I'm done with this topic.

LOL!

[Soloman1]

At this point, I’m done with golf.

[Nels55]

5 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

At this point, I’m done with golf.

Golf is not done with you!

[Hidraw]

6 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Admittedly, I'm an electrical engineer, not mechanical. So I'm not the one for a true "deep dive" as I haven't had to study mechanics since my senior year of high school. I took the AP calculus-based version of physics in HS and although my university wouldn't accept my '5' score on the AP test, they allowed me to take the final for their required mechanics course which I passed so I earned the credit and didn't have to repeat it in college. 

 

But as iacas suggests, if you want to start a new thread doing deep dives on physics, I suspect not only that you'll get some takers, but that it'll get it out of this train wreck of a thread. 

I will have a draft on the issues and seek your opinion via private mail, just to avoid another train wreck.
 

[Valtiel]

15 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Ah beware the veteran instructor bait and switch move.

 

I can see @Valtiel getting all excited when he sees the fancy sim room with the sensors lying on the table, then the look of confusion when he’s led past that into the storeroom with only a flickering fluorescent light and a small tv in the corner connected to an XBox 360.

 

Then it dawns on him…

 

May or may not have definitely played a lot of that back in the day 😅
 

[virtuoso]

11 hours ago, Hidraw said:

I will have a draft on the issues and seek your opinion via private mail, just to avoid another train wreck.
 

I answered your pm, but you should just start a new thread with your draft and you’ll get a lot more feedback. And the topic will be your draft, so you can just go full tilt boogie.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/24/2024 at 12:41 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I love how you reply quoting the post, in a thread with the title we have, which has this graph, and think it supports your theory:

 

 

Quite literally this shows that all four golfers are applying tangential force (i.e. pulling) on the handle at the start of the downswing (or, at least 0.2s prior to impact). 

 

Then, not a single one of those golfers has a negative tangential force (i.e. braking) before impact. The forces all rapidly approach zero in that last 0.03s, but it would be much more accurate to call this "coasting" and not braking. 

 

Oh, and the "in the opposite direction to the club head's travel" is the "normal" force, or centripetal force. Not braking either. 

What about this graph that shows a PGA tour pro applying a "negative couple and working in opposition to the direction of the motion of the club head" at just below shaft parallel on the down swing. 

 

This is the video from Dr. MacKenzie and the timestamp is 11:45 where he explains about working in opposition to the club head.  I DIDN'T SAY IT...HE DID. Take a peek at this video @Hidraw and let me know how you interpret this. 

 

How else can you do negative work on the club head while holding the end of the club opposite of it?  You have to apply a braking force to the handle end and that is what transfers the force onward to the club.  I never said that this is done by the hands as someone mentioned,  I said that without rotation it is felt in the hands because they are the link between the body and the club. That is also why I said in another thread that monitoring the hands during the golf swing motion are not important because if you are creating max force all they can do is hold on for dear life. 

 

I mention cracking a whip in that is how force/speed is transferred along from the ground to the tip end of the whip. I used to call this as it should properly be called, negative acceleration, but it only lead to more confusion from most so I stopped saying it and called it a braking force. The hands are opposing each other when the club gets below shaft parallel on the downswing and that is what creates a stable club head and also rapidly accelerates the club head. In order for that to happen the hands have to be creating negative acceleration on the handle end of the club.  The hands don't actually work backwards, but I would describe it as more of they stall.  This negative acceleration makes me feel like I am literally trying to snap shaft in half using the handle end against the club head end like this: 

 

It is simply not possible to actually stop the club head dead in its tracks but the more stable the athlete's base is, the higher percentage of the force that will be transferred and this also shows just how much force is created when there is no rotation and all of that force stops at the hands just how much it stresses the shaft. 

 

I found this video helpful in showing what I mean when I say you shouldn't actively pull on the club in the "arm wrestler" description used at around 10:42 timestamp. 

 

Edited January 28 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:10 AM, iacas said:

 

The speed of light sounds like a reasonable estimate. Assuming there's no air friction so there's no terminal velocity, and it can fall for a long, long time. But then we'd have a problem with slow play.

 

@Hidraw I apologize in advance for being super "nasty" in this response where I illustrate how off-base you seem to be. Please feel free to tell me again how I'm unloved and will die alone. 😄 

 

Also, before I reply to you, I wanted to voice complete agreement with this:

 

 

Terminology is important.

 

 

FWIW the letters "brak" (so "braking" or "brake") don't seem to appear in The Physics of Golf.

 

I did see this passage, though (and to be clear this is a quote from that book, in Jorgensen's voice):

 

I told him he was to pull so hard on the upper end of his left arm at the beginning of the downswing that he could feel the force he was exerting.

 

Kinda seems relevant given the title of this topic is "Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing".

 

 

Now is a good time to note that the rest of the title of the topic is "Stop the Handle Late In Downswing," and that's the context of almost all previous discussion.

 

I realize you and the rest of us were saddled with "braking" as the term, as well, and the original video definitely showed @Righty to Lefty actively slamming on the brakes with the handle, but "braking" is a poor term as @Soloman1 has said because it implies not only an active deceleration, but a sudden, rapid one as well. Paired with the word "stop" as in unmoving, which we all at least understood to be a "feel" only as clearly nobody literally stops the handle… you were at a major disadvantage from the outset.

 

The truth is that the segments of the body accelerate and decelerate during the downswing. We've known this for a long time. It's commonly seen in graphs like this one from a long drive competitor:

 

 

But… there are a whole host of reasons why a segment slows down, and almost none of them are active, while exactly zero of them are completely "stop" during the downswing.

 

For example, rear your arm back and throw a punch at the air, as hard as you can. Your fist will accelerate and decelerate due to range of motion constraints, and owing to the fact that your muscles, depending on their orientation and range, will have a different capacity to generate or maintain (or increase) speed.

 

If we label the segments as they go outward A, B, C, and D… consider that accelerating segment B acts on segment A, accelerating segment C acts on segment B, and accelerating segment D acts on segment C.

 

Those segments are "squishy." They're not fixed in place, like hopefully our feet are to the ground. So, while the force going into our feet and into the ground is countered at nearly 100%… the same is not true of segment B acting on segment A, or C on B, or D on C.

 

 

That's evident there. When Chris tries to turn his chest in one direction… his hips — without the ground below to provide a reaction force — go the other way.

 

In other words, the golfer's intent to speed up the chest "pushes" on the hips in the opposite direction, slowing them down somewhat. The golfer's intent to speed up the arms at a point in the swing pushes on the chest, slowing it down. And the golfer's intent to speed up the clubhead pushes back on the arms, slowing them down a bit.

 

It's not "braking" the handle of the club. It's not even slowing the handle down (more on that in a bit). It's in fact speeding up the next segment.

 

Additionally, we can see that the peak hand speed in a golfer often occurs around P5.5. Thus, peak grip speed occurs there, too, by all accounts. But… this is just linear speed, and there are two kinds of movement occurring in a golf swing. I'm not going to get into it, but rotational forces (torques, with moments, etc.) and linear forces are both at play. The math gets a bit more complex than a seventh-grade level, and happens very fast.

 

 

It's funny you have now moved to the left shoulder given his advice to the young golfer on the range (and the golfer's subsequent success) from my quote above was to "pull so hard on the upper end of his left arm". Now, you may correctly point out that he doesn't say anything about what the golfer was to do 0.03 seconds before impact or something, but… I think it's pretty well understood the golfer wasn't trying to actively or with intent slow his left shoulder at any point in the downswing.

 

 

Every golfer does that. The shaft lines up at some point, and the shaft pulls in that direction. I don't know that you understand what "going normal" is. The only real difference between bad golfers and elite golfers is when this happens: bad golfers "go normal" a little earlier, and their magnitudes tend to be smaller (as they swing slower). Bad golfers flip, good golfers line it up a little later.

 

FWIW, the simple view is "going normal" is merely holding onto the grip of the club as the club lines up or kicks out.

 

 

The left shoulder is working up and away from the target line almost the entire downswing.

 

 

Also, if you can identify exactly where that left shoulder "brakes" I'd be curious. You'll be seeing something I dare say almost nobody else would see, as that shoulder will appear to almost everyone to continue rotating even after impact at a pretty good clip.

 

 

None of which would accurately be described as "braking."

 

 

We know what the hand path is. If you want to talk about parametric acceleration, that's a different topic altogether.

 

——————————————————

 

My summary:

 

The title of this forum topic is "Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing." Examining each part:

 

Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing

 

Better yet, DO!

 

Stop the Handle Late In Downswing

 

Better yet, DON'T!

 

I spent more time than I am comfortable specifying looking for an old post of mine here. I believe it was in response to @Righty to Lefty and the general message was: "I think I would have a hard time intentionally making a post as wrong as this one. If you literally say the opposite of everything you just said, you'd be much closer to making an accurate post than what you've written." (If anyone can find that, I'll be indebted to you in a small way, and I send my thanks in advance.)

 

I'm doubling down on that. Golfers would have more success literally doing the opposite of almost everything @Righty to Lefty says about the golf swing than doing what he says to do.

 

"Pull on the club from the top, keep moving the whole downswing" is more accurate than the current title of this topic.

 

 

 

I stated that "when you feel that you apply the braking force will depend on how fast twitch you are and that I have to wait until very late in the down swing or I will hit pulls in relation to the target line." I also said that I am passive with my upper body at the start of the downswing, but obviously I provide structure with my arms during the swing.  You literally take everything that I mention and twist it to try and make me be wrong 100% of the time. Yet if I'm wrong 100% of the time, how do I play good golf? Am I just lucky?  I should still be a max handicap by your rationale. 

 

I assure you telling golfers to pull on the handle does way more damage than good especially since you never clarify exactly what you mean by encouraging it. I would love to tee it up with you and anyone else in these threads because I assure you I can hold my own and afterwards I promise you that we have more in common than we do differences.  Any shot that you tell me I can't hit or don't do I will show you on command.  Now does that mean I get to skip the process to be really good at the game, no way, I still have to put in more work to be able to relentlessly repeat which is the true mark of a good golfer in my opinion.  

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:18 AM, Simpsonia said:

 

Once again, your imprecision with language is what is getting you in trouble in these threads. Pretty much nobody defines "braking" in the way that you do. Think of the common speedboat with a water skier analogy. When the speedboat cuts a sharp corner and whips the water skier out, did hit "hit the brakes" or did just just change directions? 

 

To pretty much everyone else, "braking" means a force applied in the opposite direction of movement of the thing itself moving. So if the hands are moving up, then "braking" would mean in the opposite direction, ie a force moving the hands back downwards. It has nothing to do with the different directions of the clubhead vs hands. 

My language was fine, because if I said negative acceleration how many do you think would truly understand the correct term? Just type braking force in golf into Youtube and watch how many videos pop up. Matter of fact take a look at this one: 

 

 

[iacas]

@Righty to Lefty, at this point you're being willfully ignorant. You're trying to talk about stuff you clearly do not understand in the slightest. Almost all of what you will write here has been addressed, often multiple times.

 

Were @virtuoso's nine levels (I made up the nine to match Dante's Inferno) of GolfWRX actually exist, you'd be stuck on level 1 (or level 9, depending on which you see as "higher" and "lower") for a loooooooong time, because not only do you lack knowledge, you resist any and all attempts to show you what's more right, what's better, what's actually happening in the golf swing.

 

Imagine, fifteen years of this! Unfortunately, we don't have to imagine it, because it's you.

 

Spoiler

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

What about this graph that shows a PGA tour pro applying a "negative couple and working in opposition to the direction to the motion" at just below shaft parallel on the down swing.

 

You don't seem to know what a couple is. You don't seem know what "negative" represents. I've talked to you about this whole thing — and a bit of what it means — on multiple occasions.

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is the video from Dr. MacKenzie and the timestamp is 11:45 where he explains about working in opposition to the club.  I DIDN'T SAY IT...HE DID. Take a peek at this video @Hidraw and let me know how you interpret this.

 

You don't seem to understand what he's talking about. Did you watch the other video?

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

How else can you do negative work on the club head while holding the end of the club opposite of it?

 

Is the red arrow going through the grip?

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You have to apply a braking force

 

No.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I mention cracking a whip in that is how force/speed is transferred along from the ground to the tip end of the whip.

 

Mention it all you want, you don't even understand the simply physics of cracking a whip. A golf club gets heavier at the end, and the shaft isn't whip-like at all. It's almost exactly the opposite — which seems to happen to you a lot — and this has also been specifically addressed.

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This negative acceleration makes me feel like I am literally trying to snap shaft in half using the handle end against the club head end like this: 

 

For the umpteenth time, #FeelAintReal.

 

It's funny that you keep using that video. Because if you did want to actually slam the brakes on, like you did in the video you made, YOU COULD AND DID, just as Martin did in this video. You actually stopped the club. Before impact.

 

That's not a good golf swing, stopping the club before impact.

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

It is simply not possible to actually stop the club head dead in its tracks

 

You did when you were showing off your feel. So did Martin.

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

the more stable the athlete's base is, the higher percentage of the force that will be transferred

 

No. So Justin Thomas should stop jumping in the air because he's not got a "stable base?" Scottie Scheffler's foot shuffling/sliding is costing him speed? No.

 

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

this also shows just how much force is created when there is no rotation and all of that force stops at the hands just how much it stresses the shaft. 

 

Man, that gravity… look at how much force it generates! /s

 

And in case I'm not being clear there, he's not letting "gravity" do this for him. He's putting tremendous force into the arms and thus the club the entire downswing. That's why he's able to snap the shaft. The Rory split-hand drill… tremendous speed into the club from the start of the downswing.

[Simpsonia]

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

My language was fine, because if I said negative acceleration how many do you think would truly understand the correct term? Just type braking force in golf into Youtube and watch how many videos pop up. Matter of fact take a look at this one: 

 

 

 

 

Did you even watch the video you posted as 'evidence'? It's long drivers working with Scott Lynn and Swing Catalyst. They're only talking about ground reaction forces from the lower body. The "braking force" referenced here is in the lead leg/foot.... literally nothing do with a "braking force" for anything at all related to the upper body/arms/hands/club. 

 

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I stated that "when you feel that you apply the braking force will depend on how fast twitch you are and that I have to wait until very late in the down swing or I will hit pulls in relation to the target line."

 

#FeelAintReal

 

I care what's real, not what your feel is. Your feels are very real to you. But they're not what's really happening.

 

49 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I also said that I am passive with my upper body at the start of the downswing

 

It's not.

 

49 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You literally take everything that I mention and twist it to try and make me be wrong 100% of the time.

 

Buddy, let's be clear here: I'm not twisting anything. You have a remarkable ability to say so many things that are almost exactly the opposite of what's real that I'm amazed. It's awesome. I couldn't be as wrong as you are if I tried.

 

I'm not twisting anything; you're just that wrong that often.

 

49 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yet if I'm wrong 100% of the time, how do I play good golf? Am I just lucky?  I should still be a max handicap by your rationale.

 

They don't ask whether you can occasionally break 80 on the AP Physics exam.

 

49 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I assure you telling golfers to pull on the handle does way more damage than good

 

I'm gonna rely on these two things over your assurances:

• facts and physics
• my experience teaching

Here's a kid not pulling on the handle:

 

 

Here he is pulling on the handle (the right way):

 

 

I'll take the latter, thank you.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting that people "pull" the club INTO themselves. But you've literally said that you're "passive" and letting gravity do the work. And that's dead f-ing wrong. #FeelAintReal

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

#FeelAintReal

 

I care what's real, not what your feel is. Your feels are very real to you. But they're not what's really happening.

 

 

It's not.

 

 

Buddy, let's be clear here: I'm not twisting anything. You have a remarkable ability to say so many things that are almost exactly the opposite of what's real that I'm amazed. It's awesome. I couldn't be as wrong as you are if I tried.

 

I'm not twisting anything; you're just that wrong that often.

 

 

They don't ask whether you can occasionally break 80 on the AP Physics exam.

 

 

I'm gonna rely on these two things over your assurances:

• facts and physics
• my experience teaching

Here's a kid not pulling on the handle:

 

 

Here he is pulling on the handle (the right way):

 

 

I'll take the latter, thank you.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting that people "pull" the club INTO themselves. But you've literally said that you're "passive" and letting gravity do the work. And that's dead f-ing wrong. #FeelAintReal

Don’t you understand?

 

The anti pull the arms down crowd are smarter than you, me, Rose, Tiger, Sergio, Harrington, Rory, Dechambeau, others and the data that shows arms and hands accelerate earlier on better and longer players.

 

Kidding aside, is that the right feel/concept for everyone?  Of course not.  Completely discounting ideas as valid because it doesn’t jibe with your feel or understanding is pretty narrow thinking.  Especially when there is so much supporting it.

 

Joe’s work with Hoviland goes against everything I have learned, thought and done successfully myself up to now, but I am open to it because there is data and practical success associated with it.

 

 

[GolfTurkey]

Would calling the force applied by the (good) golfer in transition / the downswing perhaps better be called “pushing” rather than “pulling”.

 

I (and maybe others) think of pulling as exerting a force that would bring something closer to my head or sternum. This would be the “bad” narrowing pull the handle closer to you move in transition.
 

I see the “take the arrow out of the quiver” widening move in transition as a push away on the handle. 

Edited January 28 by GolfTurkey

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Would calling the force applied by the (good) golfer in transition / the downswing perhaps better be called “pushing” rather than “pulling”.

 

I (and maybe others) think of pulling as exerting a force that would bring something closer to my headnor sternum. This would be the “bad” narrowing pull the handle closer to you move in transition.
 

I see the “take the arrow out of the quiver” widening move in transition as a push away on the handle. 

Right that’s why the arms need it accelerate early so the right elbow can lose flex…..an already hotly contested issue in the recent past.

[Righty to Lefty]

5 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

Did you even watch the video you posted as 'evidence'? It's long drivers working with Scott Lynn and Swing Catalyst. They're only talking about ground reaction forces from the lower body. The "braking force" referenced here is in the lead leg/foot.... literally nothing do with a "braking force" for anything at all related to the upper body/arms/hands/club. 

 

I NEVER SAID THE BRAKING FORCE COMES FROM THE HANDS OR THE UPPER BODY...EVER...I SAID IT IS FELT IN THE HANDS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CONNECTION FROM THE BODY TO THE CLUB AND WITHOUT ROTATION THE FORCE MOSTLY STOPS AT THE HANDS. THE HANDS ARE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE IN THE GOLF SWING MOTION EXCEPT FOR HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF FORCE BEING CREATED.  

 

ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT....I NEVER SAID THAT THE BRAKING FORCE COMES FROM THE HANDS OR THE UPPER BODY THOUGH THE HANDS ARE WORKING IN OPPOSITION TO EACH OTHER TO CREATE STABILITY OF THE CLUB HEAD THROUGH IMPACT.  

[virtuoso]

33 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I NEVER SAID THE BRAKING FORCE COMES FROM THE HANDS OR THE UPPER BODY...EVER...I SAID IT IS FELT IN THE HANDS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CONNECTION FROM THE BODY TO THE CLUB AND WITHOUT ROTATION THE FORCE MOSTLY STOPS AT THE HANDS. THE HANDS ARE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE IN THE GOLF SWING MOTION EXCEPT FOR HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF FORCE BEING CREATED.  

 

ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT....I NEVER SAID THAT THE BRAKING FORCE COMES FROM THE HANDS OR THE UPPER BODY THOUGH THE HANDS ARE WORKING IN OPPOSITION TO EACH OTHER TO CREATE STABILITY OF THE CLUB HEAD THROUGH IMPACT.  

I thought all forces were going through the hands, no? But you’re saying some forces are skipping the upper body and hands and going directly to the club?

 

Sorry, im behind on this thread. I got stuck in the bounce thread and barely made it out without getting banned.

Edited January 28 by virtuoso

[Righty to Lefty]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

#FeelAintReal

 

I care what's real, not what your feel is. Your feels are very real to you. But they're not what's really happening.

 

 

It's not.

 

 

Buddy, let's be clear here: I'm not twisting anything. You have a remarkable ability to say so many things that are almost exactly the opposite of what's real that I'm amazed. It's awesome. I couldn't be as wrong as you are if I tried.

 

I'm not twisting anything; you're just that wrong that often.

 

 

They don't ask whether you can occasionally break 80 on the AP Physics exam.

 

 

I'm gonna rely on these two things over your assurances:

• facts and physics
• my experience teaching

Here's a kid not pulling on the handle:

 

 

Here he is pulling on the handle (the right way):

 

 

I'll take the latter, thank you.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting that people "pull" the club INTO themselves. But you've literally said that you're "passive" and letting gravity do the work. And that's dead f-ing wrong. #FeelAintReal

Once again I never said to let gravity do the work. I said that the upper body is passive for a moment to allow the hips to get out in front and lead and to allow the club the club enough time to regain the proper plane. I said if there was no rotation, the club would fall to the trail hip from the top of the backswing and this was confirmed in the Athletic Motion video. 

 

Also you fail to admit that Dr. MacKenzie himself is the one what said that the golfer is working in the opposite direction of the direction of the travel of the club head in the video that YOU posted and now you trying to act like I don't understand what he said when he was pretty clear. I know what a negative couple is, because he explained it pretty clearly at the timestamp that I mentioned. And also you were dead wrong when you and others stated that angular momentum was constant in a golf swing...it is not.  

 

 @MonteScheinblum talks about No Turn, Cast, and without rotation of the upper body it would actually be a flip, but with rotation you can't see it, this is no different than me saying stop the handle.  They are exactly the same concept but I feel that stopping the handle is a more powerful statement/visual but I completely agree with No Turn, Cast but was glad to see that Monte quickly mentioned to keep the body rotating and maintain proper sequencing to properly transfer the force onward to the body because those details are very important and can't be glossed over.  

 

You are obviously a passionate golfer and teacher, but after all these years for you to agree with zero of what I have ever said on here or your site is cynical because you never mention solutions or fixes, just that I'm wrong, dead wrong.  Even after all these years you have never ever said "I see where you are coming from" on anything...ever...yet my rank beginner Son and multiple people that have messaged me offline do, once they truly step back and open up their mind. 

 

Once again I will tee it up with anybody as I am in no way scared to demonstrate anything that I post on here. I also play in Veterans Golf Association tournaments and my scores get posted for all to see.  

[Righty to Lefty]

31 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I thought all forces were going through the hands, no? But you’re saying some forces are skipping the upper body and hands and going directly to the club?

 

Sorry, im behind on this thread. I got stuck in the bounce thread and barely made it out without getting banned.

I did not say that force was skipping over anything...I am not sure what you are talking about?  I'm off to go and see what all the hoopla is about in the bounce thread now! 

[virtuoso]

39 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I did not say that force was skipping over anything...I am not sure what you are talking about?  I'm off to go and see what all the hoopla is about in the bounce thread now! 

Oh, i thought you said the braking force is not coming from the upper body or the hands, so i was trying to figure out how it got to the club.

 

Ok, I thought about it. You’re saying the braking force is originated in the lower body, and the upper body and hands are letting the braking force pass through to the club. Fair enough?

Edited January 28 by virtuoso

[Soloman1]

The downswing is like a 40-yard sprint, not a 2-mile run.

I don’t know how to make it any simpler.

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I NEVER SAID

 

Imma let you finish, Taylor, but are you yelling because you want to be heard? Even though I've pretty much always read all that you've written, while you just ignore and gloss over everything you don't like (which is a lot)… and yet I've never resorted to the all bold ALL CAPS stuff.

 

Frustrating when you feel you're not being read, right? Anyway… I'm gonna change it back:

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never said the braking force comes from the hands or the upper body...Ever...

 

It's the only thing holding the club, and the title of the topic is to brake the HANDLE. You're the only thing except for gravity adding energy to the system, and the only thing holding the handle is you.

 

Maybe try to be more clear next time eh?

 

P.S. I'd go back and look, but I'm pretty sure we'd find you talking about braking through the hands.

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Once again I never said to let gravity do the work.

 

Your video says several times to let the club "fall." Falling is a gravity thing.

 

When you demonstrated "pulling" you also added rotation. And, if you let the club "fall" to your trail hip, your downswing would take a good bit longer than it actually does.

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I said that the upper body is passive for a moment to allow the hips to get out in front and lead and to allow the club the club enough time to regain the proper plane.

 

It's not. If you do that, you'll be leaving the arms WAY behind. The arms are anything but passive. Even if they "maintain the structure" that requires them to be active.

 

#FeelAintReal

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I said if there was no rotation, the club would fall to the trail hip from the top of the backswing and this was confirmed in the Athletic Motion video.

 

If you mean the one with the robots from three views… do yourself a favor and watch it again, maybe?

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Also you fail to admit that Dr. MacKenzie himself is the one what said that the golfer is working in the opposite direction of the direction of the travel of the club head in the video that YOU posted and now you trying to act like I don't understand what he said when he was pretty clear.

 

At this point I've tried to help you on that very specific topic so many times I've lost count. It's on you at this point bud.

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

And also you were dead wrong when you and others stated that angular momentum was constant in a golf swing...it is not.

 

Yeah, so… I never said that.

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 @MonteScheinblum talks about No Turn, Cast, and without rotation of the upper body it would actually be a flip

 

It wouldn't be a flip so much as it would be sticking the club in the ground four feet behind the ball. 😄 

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

this is no different than me saying stop the handle

 

Ha ha, sure.

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

They are exactly the same concept

 

Pretty sure @MonteScheinblum would deny that. Monte is saying very much that your body and upper arms are active in the early downswing.

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You are obviously a passionate golfer and teacher, but after all these years for you to agree with zero of what I have ever said on here or your site is cynical because you never mention solutions or fixes, just that I'm wrong

 

We're not talking about one golfer's problems. We're talking swing theory here. I can't give a fix. I gave an example of a junior just above where I showed a before and after (the after is literally the second and third swing he made while trying to do this).

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

open up their mind.

 

What drugs do you recommend I take to visit this land of magic grits?

 

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Pretty sure @MonteScheinblum would deny that. Monte is saying very much that your body and upper arms are active in the early downswing.

Pretty sure in NTC Monte talks about handing lead side bend along with lead knee flexion in transition while keeping back to the target which gives time for the arms to work down. He even has a video Rory doing that on his IG feed.

 

To me the adding the lead side bend would indicate the upper body isn’t passive nor are the arms 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

To me the adding the lead side bend would indicate the upper body isn’t passive nor are the arms 

 

Yeah, I mean, we know the upper body and arms aren’t passive during this phase. It’s not really something you can debate, or with which you can “disagree.”

 

Unfortunately feels aren’t always real, as I think you know. And when talking about things online, when talking “swing theory,” unless a feel is specifically called out as “students will often say they feel x or y,” you can’t often talk about feels. You have to talk about “reality.”

[getitdaily]

7 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Once again I never said to let gravity do the work. I said that the upper body is passive for a moment to allow the hips to get out in front and lead and to allow the club the club enough time to regain the proper plane. I said if there was no rotation, the club would fall to the trail hip from the top of the backswing and this was confirmed in the Athletic Motion video. 

 

 

 @MonteScheinblum 

You actually stated "let the arms fall to the trail hip" as part of your gravity argument. So, yeah, you did say to let gravity do the work.

 

You said, in separate posts, to let the arms fall to the trail hip and to apply braking force with the hands before impact. 

 

So from p4 to p6 you say to let the arms fall then p6 to p7 apply braking force to the hands. 

 

When, in that, is there any force applied to get speed? 

Edited January 28 by getitdaily

[virtuoso]

7 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I did not say that force was skipping over anything...I am not sure what you are talking about?  I'm off to go and see what all the hoopla is about in the bounce thread now! 

Ok, I did my due diligence and skimmed most of this thread, and was surprised to find that I’ve already commented earlier on things unrelated to pulling and stopping the grip.

 

I think I’ve figured out some of the disconnect between the opposing views. For the most part, it seems like you are talking about what you feel when you do the drill in the first video, and a lot of posters are accusing you of not understanding the true underlying nature of the forces and torques in the actual golf swing.

 

But your point is that if you make that motion with the tsunami pole, and stop it before theoretical impact, that is what it looks like, and that is what it feels like. Clearly, if you want to bring the tsunami pole close to the ball but not strike it, your specific feel to do that is producing exactly that thing…..and can be deemed successful. 
 

Now, I believe your contention is that this feel is useful when actually hitting a golf ball, in which case, the only changes you have to make are to bring your clubhead speed up from zero at impact, to 100 mph at impact….or whatever speed you need for that particular shot.

 

So, now having a better understanding of what your feelings are, how can I replicate what you’re doing to try it, and what changes in feel do I need to adapt it to the club moving forward at speed to actually strike and move the ball toward the intended target?

 

I think this type of conversation can be more productive because we can modulate the change in your feel for actual ball hitting, and then try to translate your feel to my feel…..to achieve the same results.

 

Does all that make sense?

Edited January 28 by virtuoso

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Yeah, I mean, we know the upper body and arms aren’t passive during this phase. It’s not really something you can debate, or with which you can “disagree.”

 

Unfortunately feels aren’t always real, as I think you know. And when talking about things online, when talking “swing theory,” unless a feel is specifically called out as “students will often say they feel x or y,” you can’t often talk about feels. You have to talk about “reality.”

And when it’s .02 seconds I believe that’s the number that’s been stated before about difference from when the upper body and lower body move in the downswing not real easy to be passive especially in the ~.25 seconds from top of backswing to impact