Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

This is just a technology problem. It takes half of that downswing time to think and process neuron response.

 

Time for an embedded chip in our brains to fire the synapses for us. With AI, we can customize your insurance and your swing sequence timing.

 

I think this can be very big. I’ll start working on it.

 

Going to need some volunteers to let me take an angle grinder to your skull.

 

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

My wife gets the hiccups….if I made that bet she’d find a way to hiccup again just to get the cash.🙄

 

Give it a try. It worked on my wife for a bunch of years until she became immune to it. 😉 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

This is just a technology problem. It takes half of that downswing time to think and process neuron response.

 

Time for an embedded chip in our brains to fire the synapses for us. With AI, we can customize your insurance and your swing sequence timing.

 

I think this can be very big. I’ll start working on it.

 

Going to need some volunteers to let me take an angle grinder to your skull.

 

[Hidraw]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

 

 

10 hours ago, Hidraw said:

If the force that pushes the left shoulder upward also has a horizontal backward component, that is the direction of the force pointing upward and point backward over the top of your neck away from the target, say.  That horizontal backward component constitutes a braking force to the horizontal forward motion of the left shoulder.

 

Let me re-word what you said in the hopes that you'll realize what you said:

 

"If the left shoulder pushes backward, that is a braking force to the forward motion".

 

No kidding. Nobody's denying that the left shoulder moves in the direction it goes, but per your masses-on-hinges and my diagram above with the golfer in the downswing…  it's still propelling the left arm forward.

Thank you @iacas for the nice picture with arrows.
Of course the left arm or rather the center of mass of the left arm + club is torqued to line itself up with the direction of the blue arrow force.

As of my current swing, I am concious of the blue arrow, that is extending the left side and pushing the left shoulder in that direction. 

Time to milk knowledge from you - a couple of questions to you.

When should we trigger the thrust for the blue arrow?

With the left hand being tugged upward against a "neutral" right hand, I know the "tumble" or "moment couple torque",  and/or "supination of the left forearm", happen automatically, passively, not something we should be conscious about.  Do you agree?

Is this sub-action component of the compound and instinctive throw action like in an Atheletics Hammer Throw?

[Hilts1969]

11 hours ago, MPStrat said:

There are a few conversations to be had about this topic.

 

The very best the in world can have very different amounts of actual lowering of the lead arm down the chest. Sergio vs Xander for example. So it’s a bit of a stretch to say “these 5 guys have used this feel for a period of time and the arms do lower some amount relative to the amount they lift in the golf swing so it validates this feel as the objectively correct intention for most golfers”. 

 

Now I’m not saying lowering the lead arm down the chest the amount Nelly or Sergio do is “bad”, of course it isn’t. However, if guys like Tony Finau or Brian Harman did what Nelly or Sergio does with the arms and changed nothing else, they would hit a foot behind the ball.

 

Then there is widening. Widening and lowering are sometimes used interchangeably on here but it’s important to understand the difference. Widening would be the quiver pull move. As @GolfTurkey pointed out, the quiver pull isn’t the same thing as lowering the hands or lowering the arm down the chest. 

The quiver pull does in fact lower the hands and the arms which results in the left arm going down the chest. 

 

If you open the chest quickly or more slowly doesn't change this. 

[Hilts1969]

10 hours ago, dminn23 said:

I've been avoiding these threads like the plague. But is it safe to say that when people are feeling "passive arms / using gravity" to let the club drop, they are just practicing a more gradual rate of acceleration down with their arms?  Even with a bit of lateral motion to the target, your arms will drop pulling the club a bit, but if you steadily put on the gas with your arms, you're still pulling down.  It feels like a drop, but its not, just lacks the amount of arm tension a steroid jerk would have.  .02

 

Pretty much this but a long drive champion and a mid handicappers gradual rate of acceleration will be different. Its why the pros and long hitters have quicker backswings, their accelerate slowing accelerate  is just a quicker overall movement from beginning to end.

 

I think of it like cornering in a sports car you are travelling quickly you slow and wait till you see your line and then accelerate as quick as you like. 

 

The pros appear to be in a Ferrari so their slowing is still quicker than us in a station wagon.

 

By trying to keep up with the Ferrari we brake too late, mess up the stability of the car and try and accelerate early causing compensations and having to use the steering and brakes again.

 

Compensations are the EE stalling and flipping early.

 

The racing line is when you can put on the gas and is the patient part while you find the slot(transition) for want of a better phrase. 

 

Getting everything in order for the delivery is tough. 

 

It's probably why us mere mortals need driving aids in our cars we are rubbish at changing direction in the fastest, most efficient  and straightest manner.

 

Driving off a cliff is a doddle though. No practice just drive your drive as the swing your swing folks would say.

 

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Pretty much this but a long drive champion and a mid handicappers gradual rate of acceleration will be different. Its why the pros and long hitters have quicker backswings, their accelerate slowing accelerate  is just a quicker overall movement from beginning to end.

 

I think of it like cornering in a sports car you are travelling quickly you slow and wait till you see your line and then accelerate as quick as you like. 

 

The pros appear to be in a Ferrari so their slowing is still quicker than us in a station wagon.

 

By trying to keep up with the Ferrari we brake too late, mess up the stability of the car and try and accelerate early causing compensations and having to use the steering and brakes again.

 

Compensations are the EE stalling and flipping early.

 

The racing line is when you can put on the gas and is the patient part while you find the slot(transition) for want of a better phrase. 

 

Getting everything in order for the delivery is tough. 

 

It's probably why us mere mortals need driving aids in our cars we are rubbish at changing direction in the fastest, most efficient  and straightest manner.

 

Driving off a cliff is a doddle though. No practice just drive your drive as the swing your swing folks would say.

 

 

 

 

OT, but it sounds like you’ve actually been to the track a couple times. My second passion. I used to have a heavily modded evo and raced shifter karts for a number of years.

[MPStrat]

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

The quiver pull does in fact lower the hands and the arms which results in the left arm going down the chest. 

 

If you open the chest quickly or more slowly doesn't change this. 

These are two very different moves. One is more widening, one is more lowering. 
 

 

Edited January 29 by MPStrat

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

How would pushing in this direction lower the hands? 

 

Because both hands (and thus arms) are attached to the club.

[DShepley]

17 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I agree you need to feel waiting until p6 to turn on the speed and send it passed the ball.  Tiger talked about it, the Mach 3 speed guys talk about it, I talk about it in Broom Force.  IMO, this is a question Justin rose answered with his great video.  Be patient with your body speed until p-6, and let it fly.  I know this is a subjective feel discussion and if you believe the findings of Dr.  Wright, this is the feel that works for a higher percentage.

 

I would almost guarantee nearly all (maybe all) of the anti arm people are lowers….or maybe just followers of what the prevailing sentiment says.
 

You can tell a mid anything.  You can’t tell a lower upper body feels and vice versa.

 

Most people are uppers which is why everyone has trailing arms with all of the lower body centric instruction and ideas that persisted for so long.  Most tour players are mids, which is why they were told all matter of nonsense and succeeded anyway.

I messed around with feels on the weekend hitting in my simulator.  I'm also reading 'The Stock Tour Swing' at the moment and Tyler advocates that you don't have a lot of tension in your arms and wrists through transition as he feels this will help the club shallow out.  For my feel, I distilled this into my own feeling of 'drop and go' from the top, not gravity, but to feel very little tension at the top. I can struggle from time to time with a hit impulse which adds tension to my hands and I can tend to get the shaft steep in transition because I open up before my arms drop.  This feel, (I realize it's just that), was useful but I can assure you, I wasn't passive with my arms and I certainly wasn't putting the brakes on at any point. 

[virtuoso]

10 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I messed around with feels on the weekend hitting in my simulator.  I'm also reading 'The Stock Tour Swing' at the moment and Tyler advocates that you don't have a lot of tension in your arms and wrists through transition as he feels this will help the club shallow out.  For my feel, I distilled this into my own feeling of 'drop and go' from the top, not gravity, but to feel very little tension at the top. I can struggle from time to time with a hit impulse which adds tension to my hands and I can tend to get the shaft steep in transition because I open up before my arms drop.  This feel, (I realize it's just that), was useful but I can assure you, I wasn't passive with my arms and I certainly wasn't putting the brakes on at any point. 

Dshepley, I’m sad to say this was a feeble attempt to make rational sense of the dark riddles proposed by R2L. Our resident mystical riddler has somehow transcended conventional understanding of biomechanics in the sense that, on the one hand, his magical motion stops the Tsunami pole before impact, but on the other hand, when exchanged for a golf club, the same movements and impulses produce a reliable high speed impact. It is this void in the explanation that will have us pondering the strange genius of the Mystical Riddler for decades to come.

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Dshepley, I’m sad to say this was a feeble attempt to make rational sense of the dark riddles proposed by R2L. Our resident mystical riddler has somehow transcended conventional understanding of biomechanics in the sense that, on the one hand, his magical motion stops the Tsunami pole before impact, but on the other hand, when exchanged for a golf club, the same movements and impulses produce a reliable high speed impact. It is this void in the explanation that will have us pondering the strange genius of the Mystical Riddler for decades to come.

Not advocating for any of what R2L is suggesting.  More so, being patient before stepping on the gas.

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

These are two very different moves. One is more widening, one is more lowering. 
 

 

Assuming the lead arm would also be holding onto the club, where does it go when the trail arm straightens, if not down the chest?

[getitdaily]

6 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Not advocating for any of what R2L is suggesting.  More so, being patient before stepping on the gas.

Imo...the patience at the top has to come before the top of the swingnis reached. 

 

For me, it's better to feel a slowing down of the hands/arms/backswing from p3 to p4 rather than feeling like everything stops and pauses briefly at p4.

 

Slow down from p3 to p4 and then step on it. 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Assuming the lead arm would also be holding onto the club, where does it go when the trail arm straightens, if not down the chest?

Directionally from a golfers perspective the quiver pull is east. Or parallel to the ground. 
 

The Rose drill is south or straight down. 
 

Can you see where one would do more lowering down the chest as Rose says and one would widen more and do much less to lower the arm down the chest?

[johnrobison]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Directionally from a golfers perspective the quiver pull is east. Or parallel to the ground. 
 

The Rose drill is south or straight down. 
 

Can you see where one would do more lowering down the chest as Rose says and one would widen more and do much less to lower the arm down the chest?

When isolating the trail arm, yes. But the lead arm is a fixed length and is going to have to rotate about its pivot point (the shoulder).

[DShepley]

14 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Imo...the patience at the top has to come before the top of the swingnis reached. 

 

For me, it's better to feel a slowing down of the hands/arms/backswing from p3 to p4 rather than feeling like everything stops and pauses briefly at p4.

 

Slow down from p3 to p4 and then step on it. 

Here is the resulting swing. Feel isn't real. 

 

[getitdaily]

5 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

When isolating the trail arm, yes. But the lead arm is a fixed length and is going to have to rotate about its pivot point (the shoulder).

The trail arm thing is more of a feel to help maintain some width. It's an exaggeration. 

 

Do the trail arm move as an exaggeration and then make a regular swing. I wouldn't get too caught up in what the lead arm does during that drill. Let it follow during the drill.

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Here is the resulting swing. Feel isn't real. 

 

That's a result of a pause at the top feel or a slowing down from p3 to p4 feel?

[DShepley]

3 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

That's a result of a pause at the top feel or a slowing down from p3 to p4 feel?

Just trying to not feel tension in my hands and arms in transition, (just for a moment through the change of direction).

[johnrobison]

4 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

The trail arm thing is more of a feel to help maintain some width. It's an exaggeration. 

 

Do the trail arm move as an exaggeration and then make a regular swing. I wouldn't get too caught up in what the lead arm does during that drill. Let it follow during the drill.

I don't disagree - sort of. The trail arm does, in fact, straighten. It's more than a feel and for some players, I feel of a straightening trail arm is more effective than a feel of a lowering lead arm. That's not the point I was making, though. The argument was that there are two directions - widening and lowering - and that the arrow pull is widening. I'm saying they're the same thing - that you can't straighten the trail arm without the hands lowering due to the fact that the lead arm is attached.

[getitdaily]

Just now, johnrobison said:

I don't disagree - sort of. The trail arm does, in fact, straighten. It's more than a feel and for some players, I feel of a straightening trail arm is more effective than a feel of a lowering lead arm. That's not the point I was making, though. The argument was that there are two directions - widening and lowering - and that the arrow pull is widening. I'm saying they're the same thing - that you can't straighten the trail arm without the hands lowering due to the fact that the lead arm is attached.

I agree.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Assuming the lead arm would also be holding onto the club, where does it go when the trail arm straightens, if not down the chest?

 

21 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

When isolating the trail arm, yes. But the lead arm is a fixed length and is going to have to rotate about its pivot point (the shoulder).

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Because both hands (and thus arms) are attached to the club.

 

Yep.

 

6 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I don't disagree - sort of. The trail arm does, in fact, straighten. It's more than a feel and for some players, I feel of a straightening trail arm is more effective than a feel of a lowering lead arm. That's not the point I was making, though. The argument was that there are two directions - widening and lowering - and that the arrow pull is widening. I'm saying they're the same thing - that you can't straighten the trail arm without the hands lowering due to the fact that the lead arm is attached.

 

And… yeah. Most people are "trail hand dominant" (most golfers are righties playing righty), so often "doing" something with that right hand/arm/shoulder is the "easier" move for them to do/feel/replicate.

[jonsnow]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Dshepley, I’m sad to say this was a feeble attempt to make rational sense of the dark riddles proposed by R2L. Our resident mystical riddler has somehow transcended conventional understanding of biomechanics in the sense that, on the one hand, his magical motion stops the Tsunami pole before impact, but on the other hand, when exchanged for a golf club, the same movements and impulses produce a reliable high speed impact. It is this void in the explanation that will have us pondering the strange genius of the Mystical Riddler for decades to come.

From "Mystery Men" a seriously underrated movie:

 

The Blue Raja:
Well, there's The Sphinx.

Mr. Furious:
Who?

The Blue Raja:
The Sphinx.

The Shoveller:
Yeah, I've heard of this guy. He's a big crime-fighter down south.

Mr. Furious:
What's his power?

The Blue Raja:
Well, he's terribly mysterious.

Mr. Furious:
That's his power, he's mysterious?

The Blue Raja:
He's TERRIBLY mysterious, actually.

The Shoveller:
Yeah, plus he can cut guns in half with his mind.

Rate 

[MPStrat]

52 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

When isolating the trail arm, yes. But the lead arm is a fixed length and is going to have to rotate about its pivot point (the shoulder).

Do you get my point, though? The potential difference between the amount of lowering that would happen automatically by the force applied by the golfer to push *away* and lowering the lead arm down the chest straight *down* toward the ground. 
 

 

[Zitlow]

Nesbit, Sasho, Dr. Kwon and the other highly educated PhDs along with the top YouTube "experts" can't come up with a consensus on the most efficient way to start the backswing or downswing. That tells you everything you need to know. 

 

 

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Do you get my point, though? The potential difference between the amount of lowering that would happen automatically by the force applied by the golfer to push *away* and lowering the lead arm down the chest straight *down* toward the ground.

 

One could say the weight (the club) is "behind" the direction of the arrow relative to the hands, so even the trail arm is "pulling" in the photo you posted above:

 

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

Nobody says you "push" the arrow out of the quiver.

Edited January 29 by iacas

[johnrobison]

29 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Do you get my point, though? The potential difference between the amount of lowering that would happen automatically by the force applied by the golfer to push *away* and lowering the lead arm down the chest straight *down* toward the ground. 
 

 

Now I'm left with trying to infer what your point is. Earlier you said that they're not the same thing - that straightening the trail arm (pulling an arrow) is a widening move, not a lowering move. So are you talking about intent or what's really happening? What really happens is that the trail arm straightens and the right arm lowers. But if you're saying that to maintain width while rotating and side bending to get the club to the ball, the golfer can feel that they're pushing the hands away from the shoulder without the feeling of lowering them, ok. I suppose there are a number of ways to do it but if your point is that a golfer might use that feel to delay the lowering a bit, ok. Having said that, I know two VERY good players/coaches who feel the right arm straighten away (not so much down) immediately in the downswing so, again, I'm left trying to understand your assertion that they're different things.

[MPStrat]

Just now, johnrobison said:

Now I'm left with trying to infer what your point is. Earlier you said that they're not the same thing - that straightening the trail arm (pulling an arrow) is a widening move, not a lowering move. So are you talking about intent or what's really happening? What really happens is that the trail arm straightens and the right arm lowers. But if you're saying that to maintain width while rotating and side bending to get the club to the ball, the golfer can feel that they're pushing the hands away from the shoulder without the feeling of lowering them, ok. I suppose there are a number of ways to do it but if your point is that a golfer might use that feel to delay the lowering a bit, ok. Having said that, I know two VERY good players/coaches who feel the right arm straighten away (not so much down) immediately in the downswing so, again, I'm left trying to understand your assertion that they're different things.

It’s all about the direction of the force the golfer is applying. Down vs away.
 

With the quiver pull move, the force applied is not straight down toward the ground. It’s this direction:

 

 

The attempt to lower the lead arm straight down the chest is not “away”; it’s “down” “Pulling down on a chain” as Sergio says also known as “ringing the bell” 

[betarhoalphadelta]

17 hours ago, dminn23 said:

I've been avoiding these threads like the plague. But is it safe to say that when people are feeling "passive arms / using gravity" to let the club drop, they are just practicing a more gradual rate of acceleration down with their arms?  Even with a bit of lateral motion to the target, your arms will drop pulling the club a bit, but if you steadily put on the gas with your arms, you're still pulling down.  It feels like a drop, but its not, just lacks the amount of arm tension a steroid jerk would have.  .02

 

6 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Pretty much this but a long drive champion and a mid handicappers gradual rate of acceleration will be different. Its why the pros and long hitters have quicker backswings, their accelerate slowing accelerate  is just a quicker overall movement from beginning to end.

 

I think of it like cornering in a sports car you are travelling quickly you slow and wait till you see your line and then accelerate as quick as you like. 

 

The pros appear to be in a Ferrari so their slowing is still quicker than us in a station wagon.

 

By trying to keep up with the Ferrari we brake too late, mess up the stability of the car and try and accelerate early causing compensations and having to use the steering and brakes again.

 

Compensations are the EE stalling and flipping early.

 

The racing line is when you can put on the gas and is the patient part while you find the slot(transition) for want of a better phrase. 

 

Getting everything in order for the delivery is tough. 

 

It's probably why us mere mortals need driving aids in our cars we are rubbish at changing direction in the fastest, most efficient  and straightest manner.

 

Driving off a cliff is a doddle though. No practice just drive your drive as the swing your swing folks would say.

 

 

Here's the answer:

 

 

In all cases (scratch, male 5 and 13 cap, female 18 cap), they're adding force to accelerate the club (tangentially, i.e. pulling the handle) from the start of the downswing. But that force starts fairly small and gradually increases (up until ~0.03s before impact). For the car analogy, you're "on the gas" the ENTIRE time until you get to ~0.03 seconds, at which point you don't hit the brakes but you rapidly ease up on the accelerator. 

 

To compare this to a car, I don't like a cornering analogy. I prefer a drag race analogy. If you want proper launch, you can't just rev the engine up to redline in first gear and dump the clutch. You'll spin the tires and go nowhere. You have to feather it right at the limit of traction until you build up speed, at which point you can start steadily applying more horsepower because you're not going get wheelspin. 

 

For many players, they view "pulling the handle" as dumping the clutch (yanking down hard on the grip at transition), and bad things happen. But that doesn't mean the answer is to be totally passive. Because if you're totally passive (just letting the car ease off the line by letting the clutch out VERY slowly at idle), you're not going much of anywhere either. There has to be a point in between where you're applying force, applying the right amount of force, and applying it in the right way.