Investigating steep Angle of Attack Pitch Shots (while taking a deep look at the D-Plane & Spin Loft)

[Brian Manzella]

5 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

When I've seen Mayo post numbers of ~10 down shots, dynamic loft is usually 45-47 from memory.

 

I noticed Brian was 40-41 dynamic when hitting 10-ish down, which caused the ball to launch too low. I would like to see Mayo respond to the video and what he tells his players to keep more loft on the face (is it simply opening it more or something else to prevent dynamically tilting the loft down too much while hitting down).

 

I have a 60° Tiger Woods grind TaylorMade wedge. I opened the s#!+ out of it. I am a great lob shot player.

 

My point is that the 47/-10/27 shot is a trick shot at best and NOT a great shot to try unless you are a wizard. I do think you should attempt the shot in practice and you'll learn something. I did.

 

From what I see online, they are pouring water over the whole thing.

 

My points remain.

 

1. PLENTY of ways to hit a reliable, tour caliber pitch that stops fast without 10° down.

2. 10° down or more WILL NOT PRODUCE the most solid shots for any or all groups of golfers.

 

And nether of them will ever be proven wrong.

[cav5]

2 hours ago, Chainlinks said:

Getting back to this, don’t you need 3 dimensions and 6 points of reference to determine an exact location? Aside from the camera being the point of origin 

 

Can't tell if you're trolling but I get it. Ppl think I'm one too. Trackman misses a lot and doesn't tell the full truth.

 

In short here's the problem I see with measuring and more importantly teaching all of this steepness, shallowness, Dplane info is that we, well not me lol, are telling people to move along a path when what's actually happening is you bend the shaft along that path. Subtle difference in words.

 

Angles, planes just happen. You can't pick an AoA number and build a swing off of it. This is where modern teaching is screwing up imo.

 

Everyone I see commenting keeps trying to figure out what road to go down all building off of throwing the entire club, not the clubhead. I say this because if you didn't, you'd have already realized this convo isn't necessary. Bend it correctly and COM stays put (or very close to it), and the weight won't make you stand up because simply put there won't be any to make you lose balance (or too manage strike lol and call it technique).

 

As soon as you need to put the ball somewhere to make it work, you know, that you know, that you really don't own it. OR worse, the ball position owns you.

 

The less swing you make, the less you'll bend it, to a point you won't, and you must keep the grip rotating around the clubhead. The more you can feel it bend the easier it is to get the club on the ball/and or turf first (your choice). I'm talking about actually bending it, not moving the club on a path which you'll never aim, confusing pressure with actual leverage on the shaft. When the shot is short or slow the bend disappears the rules start to change. You're gonna feel the head now so get used to it. Track the grip around it and move it on any path. To a point its not even about the hands, its your fingers as mini levers making arcs. If you made it this far, you'll start to figure out turf/v/bf contact yourself

 

This is all much more simpler than we are making it. Only hard because nobody can see through the façade of technique.

 

Study this.. my buddy posted a twitter vid of him hitting 3 chips earlier in the thread. Notice the difference in his ankle breaks/feet compared the hawk below. They are attempting similar shots with vastly different motions, time to start putting the pieces together.. It is nearly impossible to write down correctly what to do. 

 

Edited February 12 by cav5

[virtuoso]

9 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

 

I have a 60° Tiger Woods grind TaylorMade wedge. I opened the s#!+ out of it. I am a great lob shot player.

 

My point is that the 47/-10/27 shot is a trick shot at best and NOT a great shot to try unless you are a wizard. I do think you should attempt the shot in practice and you'll learn something. I did.

 

From what I see online, they are pouring water over the whole thing.

 

My points remain.

 

1. PLENTY of ways to hit a reliable, tour caliber pitch that stops fast without 10° down.

2. 10° down or more WILL NOT PRODUCE the most solid shots for any or all groups of golfers.

 

And nether of them will ever be proven wrong.

Sometimes pros are trying to hit a lob and it accidentally comes off as a low spinner....and sometimes pros are trying to play a low spinner and it accidentally comes off as a lob. Fanning the face open to add bounce and spin loft so you can go 10 down is probably a good way to risk the accidental reversal i just mentioned.

 

...they usually don't mention they got a reversal if the ball ends up close.

Edited February 13 by virtuoso

[Zitlow]

39 minutes ago, cav5 said:

 

 

 

For short chips a lot of the old school players just waggled their hands arcing the clubhead up down. 

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, cav5 said:

They are attempting similar shots…

 

No, that's not accurate.

 

Also, nice subtweeting. 😛 

[cav5]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 

For short chips a lot of the old school players just waggled their hands arcing the clubhead up down. 

Yup they drew arcs with it. Eraser followed the pencil. In the twitter vid he uses pivot to put the grip in the center of the clock and breaks ankle to release it. Pretty easy to see and the head swings by. That’s not what Hogans doing. 

[cav5]

@Zitlow I only bring it up because on shots under hip high you should be able to hit in this manner. So I don’t get the point of shallow or steep if this basic can’t be done or taught to even begin

[cav5]

Pretty similar shots. But that doesn't actually matter. Hogans ankles wouldn't do that because its not required in his motion, ever, on any shot. I'm not saying you can't do it your way (which is currently the predominantly taught way). It works well enough. Gear 1 would never disengage for hogan. Your ankle softness is the tell. Its fine and dandy but won't have access to the shots Hogan will.

 

The problem people are having in trying to make shortgamechef or mayo or whoever work for them is not the method, its their motion.

 

My advice for others reading is to learn to see motion for what it is. Or keep trying to retrofit methods in forever.

Edited February 12 by cav5

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, cav5 said:

Pretty similar shots.

 

No, they aren't.

 

I hit plenty of shots like Hogan did in the video. The shots in my tweet isn't that type of shot. It's almost the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

My ankles don't do that all that often, either. And it's not really a lot of movement, nor can you see how much Hogan's ankles move from a much farther away viewpoint with baggier cuffed pants.

 

Edited February 12 by iacas
Hit enter too soon

[Zitlow]

Using hand opposition isn't the best way to chip for some but if you can keep your eyes focused between the crease of the ball and the ground and aim the leading edge to make contact in the crease it works pretty well.

 

 

For longer chips the left arm goes back until the hands are over the right thigh and the shaft is parallel to the ground. 

 

 

[Brian Manzella]

This is a now a chipping thread??

[GolfTurkey]

3 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

This is a now a chipping thread??

 

The wind blows and the nuts fall out of the tree

[cav5]

57 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Using hand opposition isn't the best way to chip for some but if you can keep your eyes focused between the crease of the ball and the ground and aim the leading edge to make contact in the crease it works pretty well.

 

 

For longer chips the left arm goes back until the hands are over the right thigh and the shaft is parallel to the ground. 

 

 

Yeah I wouldn’t do opposing hands lol. I want the hand opposing the clubhead you could say. This at 3:20 is modern perfection imo from our world1. Can’t even hear the ball hit the face
 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

The wind blows and the nuts fall out of the tree

Pitch-stachios I believe...

[virtuoso]

8 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Pitch-stachios I believe...

Gathered up by Chipmunks?

[ThinkingPlus]

14 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Gathered up by Chipmonks?

Fixed it for ya...

[Soloman1]

Short game has a cornucopia of ways compared to the rest of the bloody game. They’re all good for someone, and I like hearing or reading them all… if I only had a brain.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

Short game has a cornucopia of ways compared to the rest of the bloody game. They’re all good for someone, and I like hearing or reading them all… if I only had a brain.

Are we off to see the wizard?  The wonderful wizard of short game?  Rumor has it that he has a diploma for you!

Quite a resemblance!

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 2/10/2024 at 3:15 PM, cav5 said:

 

Mayos is a double motion. Think of an airplane coming into landing. Strikes it down then reroutes linear. The lean, plus the low point, plus an awkard shoulder motion related to LP location bails him out....

Was wondering if anyone else saw this type of motion in Hovland's slo-mo videos of him demonstrating Mayo's technique.  Whatever large -AoA ° Hovland had, it immediately redirected into a much shallower followthrough post-contact.  Not a symmetric arc at all, and definitely not the canal I'd have dug trying to emulate it.  The whole effect had me clapping my hands like an 8 year old watching a magician:  "Do it again!  Do it again!"

 

On the double-digits negative AoA being necessary for this move, didn't Ridyard state (though this was some time ago, at a PGA symposium) that basically, any spin loft >50° was wasted as far as generating extra spin?  Has that changed?  (And does it vary depending on clubhead speed?)  If dynamic loft is already at ~50, is that kind of negative AoA even needed?  If its at 40, though...

Edited February 13 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[iacas]

The peak of the spin loft mountain is about 55-57°.

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The peak of the spin loft mountain is about 55-57°.

 

Does that change if you have dirty or worn grooves or it's wet or you're in the rough? 

[GungHoGolf]

56 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Does that change if you have dirty or worn grooves or it's wet or you're in the rough? 

It’s based on the friction limit, so yes.

[Brian Manzella]

What's the question?

[Ty_Webb]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

It’s based on the friction limit, so yes.

Thanks and assuming it's going to go down in that instance, so less than 55*

[GungHoGolf]

16 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Thanks and assuming it's going to go down in that instance, so less than 55*

Correct. Past the angle of sufficient friction, the ball comes out higher than normal with less spin.

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Correct. Past the angle of sufficient friction, the ball comes out higher than normal with less spin.

 

Yep - this is basically what happens if I hit a lob wedge

[cav5]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:28 AM, Chainlinks said:

They wanna make out they are scientific geniuses but can’t pass grade 1 math, my question is 100% spot on, baffle them with bull….t and sheepie believe, oh gawd I laughed so hard about the 2 dimensions gibberish 

Thanks for the Hogan video, now this guy practiced all day playing all types of shots and says so in an interview 

Starting to realize. Or could be that I reached out and told him a few weeks ago lol. Good thing my feel knew the facts!

 

Edited February 14 by cav5

[GolfTurkey]

Here's an example of a guy hitting 11 down while maintaining functional dynamic loft (45, 46 and 48 degrees in the 3 shots).

 

Face is a bit open at address but it doesn't look like he's doing anything particularly weird or difficult to deliver those numbers.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2vVDwuS7t3/?igsh=YmJzdmU1OWIwcWkw

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Here's an example of a guy hitting 11 down while maintaining functional dynamic loft (45, 46 and 48 degrees in the 3 shots).

 

Face is a bit open at address but it doesn't look like he's doing anything particularly weird or difficult to deliver those numbers.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2vVDwuS7t3/?igsh=YmJzdmU1OWIwcWkw

I believe that Ben Hogan used a 52 degree pitching wedge with no bounce and a sharp leading edge.  The equalizer...

[cav5]

22 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I believe that Ben Hogan used a 52 degree pitching wedge with no bounce and a sharp leading edge.  The equalizer...

It’s his brilliant motion. You gain the ability to go out-to-in (really it’s just bent in) without adding steepness. Need your hands and fingers tho working and not a slave to late acceleration/dumped pivot and arms.

 

Most people and instructors aren’t separating the clubhead from the whole club. The clubhead is the only thing going in or out. IF done correctly. If you bottle that concept it all gets easier.

 

He can also use the leading edge with energy from behind instead of the edge pulling thru. Can’t measure this stuff on TM. 

 

I like to hit the Mayo shot like the first one here from good or bad lies. Just spins more and comes lower from fairway

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C1KLyb9rO_Y/?igsh=MTEzYnVlajBobmpxeA==

Edited February 15 by cav5