USGA Handicap Submissions, Based on tee box color or tee box information?

[JohnB92]

I play at Memorial Golf Course in Houston, TX where the Houston Open will be held at the end of March. Due to the course's popularity, being an amazing deal and in wonderful condition, its HEAVILY played by golfers of all skill levels. Who can blame them? Even if you're not great at golf or only play a few times a year who WOULDN'T want to play a PGA Tour venue when it only costs you $42 to walk on the weekends?

The issue is due to this heavy amount of play, course management has decided that they will NEVER and by never, I mean it's open policy statement of management to never place the blue tee markers anywhere close to where the blue tee's Course Rating is scored from. They place the "blue tees" at the location of the white's scorecard information. I've measured it myself to ensure I know which tee boxes are which. Essentially the entire course is shifted an entire tee box forward. 
 
The difference is huge:
Blue Tees: 74.2/ 128, 7432 yards.
White Tees: 71.1 / 121 6553 yards.

As you can guess, these are essentially two completely different golf courses. Even management says (direct quote from a Marshall today) "Oh yea it's a totally different course from back there but we don't use those tees because of pace of play." This creates a problem, which tee box do I use for my USGA handicap submission? It feels like simply playing here and going off colors is a manadatory "vanity cap". My HDCP will always be -3.1 compared to my skill level, that's not my fault. I don't place the tee markers. But on the other side of things, everyone who submit scores from that course is submitting based on the color of the tee (I assume). So now if I do something different then I'm a statistical outlier, and that can look like I'm intentionally gaming the system. 

If the difference wasn't 3 shots and 900 yards, I wouldn't worry about it so much. But with the difference being so large and 80% of my rounds being played there, I want to know what the USGA's rules are around this. Would it be worth contacting the USGA and Texas Golf Association to see what they advise or if they would consider re-rating the course based on actual setup for players?

Edit:

 

I realized that I could get my Arccos data of "Actual Yardage Played". I've played 8 rounds in the last six weeks from the "Blue Tees". Range in yardage from 6257 - 6506 with an average of 6395. I also played 2 rounds from White which measured 5726 & 5843. Scorecard info for Gold Tees is: 68.0/115 at 5905 yards. So, every tee box is being shifted up an entire set up tees, and then about another 150 yards additionally.

Additionally, the Texas Golf Association is working with the Course Management to decide what to do. I'll edit this post to provide final resolution. In the meantime, I was told to continue posting scores based on the color of the tee markers I played. NOT change to reporting scores as White because "that's closer" as some advised to do. 

Edited February 13 by JohnB92
Additional Info, Context and Update on Progress for those who read later

[iacas]

That stinks.

 

What should happen is that the course should probably see a lot of PCCs happening frequently, and that should alert the AGA in charge that something is awry there.

 

Maybe a lot of golfers just mark down "white" when they play the blues if they're actually up there.

 

I dunno. Have you inquired with your AGA? What have they said?

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

Would it be worth contacting the USGA and Texas Golf Association to see what they advise or if they would consider re-rating the course based on actual setup for players

 

Assuming you're playing from the WHITE tee monuments (NOT tee markers) and there doesn't need to be any adjustments based on the total course yardage being shorter or longer than the actual WHITE yardage, I would be amazed if you or your committee would record the score(s) using anything OTHER than the WHITE rating and slope. Else what's the point ?

 

As for other players, I would think there would be a duty to the course to inform all players of same and advise players to record their scores according to the monuments they're playing from.

 

That said, I would FIRST contact your local association and/or the USGA. And assuming I've got it right, ask your local association to advise the course of how to best inform all players of the proper posting procedure.

 

Just my thoughts.

[JohnB92]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Assuming you're playing from the WHITE tee monuments (NOT tee markers) and there doesn't need to be any adjustments based on the total course yardage being shorter or longer than the actual WHITE yardage, I would be amazed if you or your committee would record the score(s) using anything OTHER than the WHITE rating and slope. Else what's the point ?

 

As for other players, I would think there would be a duty to the course to inform all players of same and advise players to record their scores according to the monuments they're playing from.

 

That said, I would FIRST contact your local association and/or the USGA. And assuming I've got it right, ask your local association to advise the course of how to best inform all players of the proper posting procedure.

 

Just my thoughts.

There are no monuments that I'm aware of on any holes outside of the Par-3s (that are visible). The only time the blue tees are near a monument it's always the WHITE monument. They're never on the back box where the blue monument is (usually at least 20 yards shorter). Most Par-3s have the white & blue markers on the same box as the white monument, maybe 5 - 7 yards apart if management is feeling spicy that day. Occasionally they are farther back on an "in between box" that doesn't have a monument at all. The Par 4 and 5s are always on the box the White monument should be on (based on laser distance). But it's possible I've missed them I'll triple check tomorrow and report back. 

But your general perception is that (assuming the USGA/TGA agrees) I should most likely be posting scores as White, because that's where the Blue markers are placed at? In essence the color of the tee marker doesn't matter, its (ideally) the color of the monument.

It seems to me that TGA/USGA should encourage management to get a new course rating for where they actually place the markers at on a regular basis. 

[JohnB92]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That stinks.

 

What should happen is that the course should probably see a lot of PCCs happening frequently, and that should alert the AGA in charge that something is awry there.

 

Maybe a lot of golfers just mark down "white" when they play the blues if they're actually up there.

 

I dunno. Have you inquired with your AGA? What have they said?

Hmm, I've noticed a lot of PCC adjustments lately, but they are always positive (saying the course played harder). I think that's related to windy days we've had recently. I think I have the PCC direction correct.

I did reach out to the USGA and Texas Golf Association today about it. I'll see what they respond with. There's a TON of tee boxes on each hole and most never get used. The easiest solution seems to be to get the USGA/TGA to re-rate the course. Rename the current "blue" to "Tournament" and then set up the new blue at like maybe 6800-6900 yards. Then just never place the "Tournament Tees" on the course. If anyone asks "well those are for tournaments" is the obvious response.

They've been shifting everything forward trying to help pace of play. Which doesn't make sense as pace of play isn't even a problem, I played today in 4 hours with wind and some rain. The worst I've ever had was 4 hours 20 min. It's not like they are fighting 5+ hour rounds every weekend. 

But now the gold/senior tee up on the women's box 80% of the time. A ton of older men refuse to play it on principle. So, those guys move back to White, which means management moves White more forward and then the same thing happens again to Blue. The whole system is a mess. What's hilarious, is by moving all the tees forwards they've actually made the pace of play slower because they removed 4 of the Par -5s (5 on this course) from being 3-shot holes. Every Par 5 except #8 is reachable for at least 1 or 2 people in each group. My 4-some all hit irons into 3 of them and hybrids/7wood on the other. Each Par 5 gets backed up because most of them are actually long Par 4s now.

So, they've done all this, and they are right back where they started but with their tees no longer matching the Course Rating.

[rogolf]

Seems to me that there is language like this in the Handicap Manual when courses are playing shorter than the rated yardage:

For differences above 300 yards (274 metres), play for the day would be ineligible for handicap purposes, unless otherwise determined by the Authorized Association in advance of the round or competition.

Edited February 11 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

37 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

Hmm, I've noticed a lot of PCC adjustments lately, but they are always positive (saying the course played harder). I think that's related to windy days we've had recently. I think I have the PCC direction correct.

I did reach out to the USGA and Texas Golf Association today about it. I'll see what they respond with. There's a TON of tee boxes on each hole and most never get used. The easiest solution seems to be to get the USGA/TGA to re-rate the course. Rename the current "blue" to "Tournament" and then set up the new blue at like maybe 6800-6900 yards. Then just never place the "Tournament Tees" on the course. If anyone asks "well those are for tournaments" is the obvious response.

They've been shifting everything forward trying to help pace of play. Which doesn't make sense as pace of play isn't even a problem, I played today in 4 hours with wind and some rain. The worst I've ever had was 4 hours 20 min. It's not like they are fighting 5+ hour rounds every weekend. 

But now the gold/senior tee up on the women's box 80% of the time. A ton of older men refuse to play it on principle. So, those guys move back to White, which means management moves White more forward and then the same thing happens again to Blue. The whole system is a mess. What's hilarious, is by moving all the tees forwards they've actually made the pace of play slower because they removed 4 of the Par -5s (5 on this course) from being 3-shot holes. Every Par 5 except #8 is reachable for at least 1 or 2 people in each group. My 4-some all hit irons into 3 of them and hybrids/7wood on the other. Each Par 5 gets backed up because most of them are actually long Par 4s now.

So, they've done all this, and they are right back where they started but with their tees no longer matching the Course Rating.

 

I should've used a different word.

 

The markers embedded in the ground, almost always about 6" in diameter and with the color matching the tee color on the scorecard.

 

These markers should equate to the exact yardage listed for each hole on the scorecard to the center of the green of the hole being played.

 

So if you're playing at those WHITE markers I should think THAT would be the rating/slope you would record for handicap purposes.

 

Please let us know what your association tells you.

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Seems to me that there is language like this in the Handicap Manual when courses are playing shorter than the rated yardage:

For differences above 300 yards (274 metres), play for the day would be ineligible for handicap purposes, unless otherwise determined by the Authorized Association in advance of the round or competition.

 

I believe that is for when the tees are positioned considerably different from their normal positions and the total yardage has to be re-calculated and the rating adjusted accordingly.

 

If I read the op's issue(s) correctly the course has merely moved all the (movable) tee markers forward 1 tee set. i.e. Blue markers at the white embedded markers/measured tees. White movable tee markers at the "Senior"(?) embedded tee set, etc.

 

So the course lengths as listed on the scorecard isn't changed, the movable tee markers are simply marking the "wrong" tee sets.

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I believe that is for when the tees are positioned considerably different from their normal positions and the total yardage has to be re-calculated and the rating adjusted accordingly.

 

If I read the op's issue(s) correctly the course has merely moved all the (movable) tee markers forward 1 tee set. i.e. Blue markers at the white embedded markers/measured tees. White movable tee markers at the "Senior"(?) embedded tee set, etc.

 

So the course lengths as listed on the scorecard isn't changed, the movable tee markers are simply marking the "wrong" tee sets.

That language in the handicap manual is for daily play when the yardage is different than the permanent markers..  If the white tee markers are more than 300 yards shorter than the white permanent marker, that language is applicable.  That's my understanding.

[JohnB92]

20 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Seems to me that there is language like this in the Handicap Manual when courses are playing shorter than the rated yardage:

For differences above 300 yards (274 metres), play for the day would be ineligible for handicap purposes, unless otherwise determined by the Authorized Association in advance of the round or competition.

 

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I should've used a different word.

 

The markers embedded in the ground, almost always about 6" in diameter and with the color matching the tee color on the scorecard.

 

These markers should equate to the exact yardage listed for each hole on the scorecard to the center of the green of the hole being played.

 

So if you're playing at those WHITE markers I should think THAT would be the rating/slope you would record for handicap purposes.

 

Please let us know what your association tells you.

Yes, I think I understood you correctly (may have responded in a stupid way and made it unclear). I'll look for those markers tomorrow and see if they are truly missing from the Par 4/5 tee boxes or if I just haven't seen them. 
 

10 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I believe that is for when the tees are positioned considerably different from their normal positions and the total yardage has to be re-calculated and the rating adjusted accordingly.

 

If I read the op's issue(s) correctly the course has merely moved all the (movable) tee markers forward 1 tee set. i.e. Blue markers at the white embedded markers/measured tees. White movable tee markers at the "Senior"(?) embedded tee set, etc.

 

So the course lengths as listed on the scorecard isn't changed, the movable tee markers are simply marking the "wrong" tee sets.

Yes, this is correct as to the issue. The length of the course hasn't changed, the greens haven't been moved or the fairways re-routed. The issue is the movable tee sets have been moved up, much farther forward than their corresponding scorecard yardage. If they had simply removed all the blue tee markers and let everything else stay at the scorecard yardage it wouldn't be an issue. The problem is since they've moved the tees on the Par 4s and Par 5s, and most of the Par 3s up so much that the course rating the HDCP calculation is done at is no longer correct based simply on the tee color. I would just post my scores as White (since that's the true tee on almost every hole) but then I'd be playing at the blue markers and posting scores from the whites. Which seems like it would be against the rules.

I think what @rogolf said is relevant about the 300-yard point. If the tees have been moved up by over 300 yards, then (maybe) the WHS would no longer consider that Course Rating to be accurate and thus wouldn't have a way to post the score. Except in this case there's other tee boxes, but then we get back into the posting scores from different tees than played issue.
 

[JohnB92]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

That language in the handicap manual is for daily play when the yardage is different than the permanent markers..  If the white tee markers are more than 300 yards shorter than the white permanent marker, that language is applicable.  That's my understanding.

That's interesting, I might try and bring that up with management just as a "hey so how did the USGA/TGA advise you to deal with this rule when y'all decided to move the markers up so much?" Just to see if they even know it's a possible issue. Or if they think it isn't, why that is.

[rogolf]

The manual also includes this language:

The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Overall, the golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials.
 

[JohnB92]

7 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The manual also includes this language:

The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Overall, the golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials.
 

Can you send me the link you're using? I have this one: Rules of Handicapping (usga.org) It reads to me like the USGA would not be a fan of this setup. +/- 100 yards seems reasonable. Most places have tees that vary 200-400 yards in total length for 18 holes. So, it does seem like they view 100 yards as the acceptable variance and over 300 yards as making the Course Rating no longer applicable.

[st1800e]

Can’t see why this is perplexing.  If you play from the tees that are ~6500 on the card, enter your score based on those tees, color is irrelevant.  Otherwise,  play 6500 and the color of the marker is for 7000, put in 7000 if you wish,

but that’s just plain incorrect.   

[enfuego]

The course should just have a black tee for the tour tee setup at 7k yards. Blue at 6.5k and so on. Just don't set out the black tee markers. Torrey pines does this. The tour tee boxes don't have markers at them and if you're caught teeing off from one they can kick you off.

Edited February 11 by enfuego

[rogolf]

9 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

Can you send me the link you're using? I have this one: Rules of Handicapping (usga.org) It reads to me like the USGA would not be a fan of this setup. +/- 100 yards seems reasonable. Most places have tees that vary 200-400 yards in total length for 18 holes. So, it does seem like they view 100 yards as the acceptable variance and over 300 yards as making the Course Rating no longer applicable.

Use this link to the USGA Handicap Manual, then go to Appendix G

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/rules-of-handicapping.html

[JohnB92]

28 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Can’t see why this is perplexing.  If you play from the tees that are ~6500 on the card, enter your score based on those tees, color is irrelevant.  Otherwise,  play 6500 and the color of the marker is for 7000, put in 7000 if you wish,

but that’s just plain incorrect.   

I get what you're saying, it does sound that simple. But the rules of handicapping say you're supposed to post the score on the tees that correspond to what you played. They don't provide any guidance as to what "the tees you played" actually means in this context. I highly doubt any significant number of people are paying attention to exactly where the permanent tee markers are in the ground and posting scores based on which ones they were closest to on which holes. Most people go where the white, blue, gold, or whatever markers are, then post the score based on that color. 

The problem is when management has basically said "no we aren't going to put the markers down +/- 10 yards from the corresponding yardage marker. We are just gonna put them down wherever we feel like will improve pace of play".

Well, what does that mean for posting scores? Do I check which marker I was closest too, make a tally and then say "Ok well I played from white permanent marker on 16/18 holes, so I'll post a white score even though I was going to the blue tee markers?" Furthermore, how does the USGA and WHS account for a course where almost every single round (except red tees) is being played from a yardage that is more than 100 yards away from the permanent marker? It says in Appendix G (thank you @rogolf), over 100 yards requires an adjustment for a "temporary change" and over 300 yards shorter invalidates the round for score posting. These aren't temporary changes, it's a permanent change to the course not reflected in the course rating.
 

A score is acceptable for handicap purposes if the round has been played:

• In an authorized format of play (see Rule 2.1a Played in an Authorized Format of Play) over at least the minimum number of holes required for either a 9-hole or an 18-hole score to be acceptable (see Rule 2.2 Minimum Number of Holes Played for Score to be Acceptable),
• In the company of at least one other person, who may also act as a marker (subject to satisfying any other requirements of the Rules of Golf),
• By the Rules of Golf (see Rule 2.1b Played by the Rules of Golf),
• On a golf course with a current Course Rating and Slope Rating, where length and normal playing difficulty is maintained at a consistent level (see Appendix G: The Golf Course, Course Rating and Slope Rating),
• On a golf course during its active season.

 

20 minutes ago, enfuego said:

The course should just have a black tee for the tour tee setup at 7k yards. Blue at 6.5k and so on. Just don't set out the black tee markers. Torrey pines does this. The tour tee boxes don't have markers at them and if you're caught teeing off from one they can kick you off.

This is exactly what I would suggest. There's a couple tee boxes I totally understand why they don't want to use. The back tee on #3 for example, if you hit a slice (and not a big one either) you'll land the ball on Green #1. So it makes sense to not allow general public to use that for safety. It would be really easy to just re-rate the Blue tees at the yardage they actually want them to play at. Then be done with the whole thing.

Edited February 11 by JohnB92

[st1800e]

18 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

I get what you're saying, it does sound that simple. But the rules of handicapping say you're supposed to post the score on the tees that correspond to what you played.

Appreciate you saying that, and that’s pretty well exactly what I was saying.  Sometimes it’s not exact, just very close. After a round I’m not going to research where the markers are and somehow get the hole by hole slope, and adjust.  
 

Many times I have played in provincial and national tournaments, they usually mix up the tees, shorten some holes, lengthen some holes from the “scorecard” and the instruction is to “enter your score in the handicap system from the “XX” tees.  Simple enough.  
 

Despite many posts (generally speaking, not at you) claiming this is an exact, perfect system, it’s not, or picking the fly**** out of the pepper, (again, not at you),  the effects are minuscule.   

Edited February 11 by st1800e

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, enfuego said:

The course should just have a black tee for the tour tee setup at 7k yards. Blue at 6.5k and so on. Just don't set out the black tee markers. Torrey pines does this. The tour tee boxes don't have markers at them and if you're caught teeing off from one they can kick you off.

I would hazard to guess that on destination/vacation courses, you would have idiots running around trying to find the "pro markers"  if they arent set out.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, st1800e said:

Can’t see why this is perplexing.  If you play from the tees that are ~6500 on the card, enter your score based on those tees, color is irrelevant.  Otherwise,  play 6500 and the color of the marker is for 7000, put in 7000 if you wish,

but that’s just plain incorrect.   

Thank you for making sense. It’s really not that hard. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, JohnB92 said:

I get what you're saying, it does sound that simple. But the rules of handicapping say you're supposed to post the score on the tees that correspond to what you played. They don't provide any guidance as to what "the tees you played" actually means in this context. I highly doubt any significant number of people are paying attention to exactly where the permanent tee markers are in the ground and posting scores based on which ones they were closest to on which holes. Most people go where the white, blue, gold, or whatever markers are, then post the score based on that color. 

The problem is when management has basically said "no we aren't going to put the markers down +/- 10 yards from the corresponding yardage marker. We are just gonna put them down wherever we feel like will improve pace of play".

Well, what does that mean for posting scores? Do I check which marker I was closest too, make a tally and then say "Ok well I played from white permanent marker on 16/18 holes, so I'll post a white score even though I was going to the blue tee markers?" Furthermore, how does the USGA and WHS account for a course where almost every single round (except red tees) is being played from a yardage that is more than 100 yards away from the permanent marker? It says in Appendix G (thank you @rogolf), over 100 yards requires an adjustment for a "temporary change" and over 300 yards shorter invalidates the round for score posting.

 

We're getting a bit tied up with colors and this is the fault of the golf course.

 

I suspect the course is moving the Blues up because, this being a TOUR level course and therefore something of a tourist attraction, the yahoo visitors, most of whom can't break 120, want to play from the tips - so, the course puts out the blues in the white tee areas to "fool"(?) them.

 

The course should just suck it up, and not put out the blue tees at all (as I believe someone already said) and have the nutz to tell players "Sorry, but the blue tees are closed", instead of the confusion they're causing.

 

The "score on the tees that correspond to what you played". That would be the WHITE tees, i.e. the permanent markers on the tee boxes. Your confusion is caused by the course putting the wrong color tees by the wrong permanent markers.

 

Personally, I might check a tee or 2 just to see if they're at the white permanent markers and after that just play on and record the score as white.

 

I believe the recommendations for the grounds crew to place the (movable) markers goes something like this. They should use an equal number of tees that are +10, -10, and 0 yards away from the permanent markers.

 

An equal number of each would give a length exactly equal to the yardages on the card - the sole difference being where the pins are on the greens, which could also be about +10, -10, or 0. But I don't believe the pin locations are used to keep the yardage calc in line.

 

Further, I think the only time one should run into having to manually adjust the course rating/slope would be when a tee box or 5 are closed, usually for repairs or other construction. Alternates are somewhere, usually a fair bit closer, to the holes. That would likely be when the 100-yard total difference in total course length would most likely kick in.

[Newby]

 

rogolf has got it right.

 

 

Appendix G Clause f applies

 

The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the Course Rating.

 

NB: For differences above 300 yards (274 metres), play for the day would be
ineligible for handicap purposes, unless otherwise determined by the
Authorized Association in advance of the round or competition.

Edited February 11 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

What's all the round and round OP?

 

If as you claim you are effectively playing the white tee box yardage markers and those are the tees from which the white yardages are measured and the course rating is obtained from and generally on the same tee boxes (who cares if the blues are there) then it's easy to input that you played the whites and have an accurate posting.  

 

The less than 300 yards wouldn't apply as you've posited it, and no need to laser every set of markers when you play, for example, just to see if that is the case.

 

I'd suggest it's not for you to contact the golf association to see about getting it re-rated, lol. I'm sure the course can handle the issue fine, but again, don't sweat it, just post from the whites and enjoy your golf.

 

 

Edited February 11 by Hawkeye77

[JohnB92]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

We're getting a bit tied up with colors and this is the fault of the golf course.

 

I suspect the course is moving the Blues up because, this being a TOUR level course and therefore something of a tourist attraction, the yahoo visitors, most of whom can't break 120, want to play from the tips - so, the course puts out the blues in the white tee areas to "fool"(?) them.

 

The course should just suck it up, and not put out the blue tees at all (as I believe someone already said) and have the nutz to tell players "Sorry, but the blue tees are closed", instead of the confusion they're causing.

 

The "score on the tees that correspond to what you played". That would be the WHITE tees, i.e. the permanent markers on the tee boxes. Your confusion is caused by the course putting the wrong color tees by the wrong permanent markers.

 

Personally, I might check a tee or 2 just to see if they're at the white permanent markers and after that just play on and record the score as white.

 

I believe the recommendations for the grounds crew to place the (movable) markers goes something like this. They should use an equal number of tees that are +10, -10, and 0 yards away from the permanent markers.

 

An equal number of each would give a length exactly equal to the yardages on the card - the sole difference being where the pins are on the greens, which could also be about +10, -10, or 0. But I don't believe the pin locations are used to keep the yardage calc in line.

 

Further, I think the only time one should run into having to manually adjust the course rating/slope would be when a tee box or 5 are closed, usually for repairs or other construction. Alternates are somewhere, usually a fair bit closer, to the holes. That would likely be when the 100-yard total difference in total course length would most likely kick in.

Yea that's exactly what I said they should do, just not put those markers out in the first place. I understand why they don't want a random walk-on 15 HDCP playing a course for the first time from 7400 yards when a tour event will be held there in 2 months. But all of this could be solved by just building the scorecard in the manner they actually want the public to play, instead of trying to be sneaky and get around a couple dufus players. It's mostly regulars who play here anyways. If you don't live in Harris County you have to pay like $120 greens fee, versus me paying $28 - $48. So it's not like they are fooling very many people anyways.

What most people are missing (not you) is that it's not really just what I, as my own individual person, should do about MY scores. It's about how I should handle this, in light of how posting scores based on tees I adjusted myself would place things out of sync with everyone else on the course. Not to mention how doing this without an adjustment will severely change the HDCP of everyone who plays out here relative to the rest of courses in the area.  It's also a question of SCALE, which is seeming to go over a few people's heads (not you). We are talking 3.1 Course Rating difference and almost 900 yards. Not "oh they shortened a hole or two by 50 yards so whatever".

Nobody is out there looking for the permanent markers in the ground. I don't believe anyone on here who says, "Yea I play from the tee markers as the grounds crew placed them, but I always double check to make sure they are within +/- 10 yards or I adjust the tee I post my score from".

Anyways, I'll find out what the USGA and TGA say is supposed to be done. I'll also ask the course management if they've gotten any guidance on how we should be posting scores in light of the setup. 

Edited February 11 by JohnB92

[JohnB92]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

 

rogolf has got it right.

 

 

Appendix G Clause f applies

 

The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the Course Rating.

 

NB: For differences above 300 yards (274 metres), play for the day would be
ineligible for handicap purposes, unless otherwise determined by the
Authorized Association in advance of the round or competition.

@Newby Don't you have some kind of official or semi-official association with the R&A on these things? I appreciate you chiming in. 

[rogolf]

19 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

Nobody is out there looking for the permanent markers in the ground. I don't believe anyone on here who says, "Yea I play from the tee markers as the grounds crew placed them, but I always double check to make sure they are within +/- 10 yards or I adjust the tee I post my score from".
 

When I'm playing at my home course and notice on the first couple holes that the tee markers are quite short of the permanent markers, I start keeping track of how many yards they are short.  This is easy, just pace from the permanent marker to the tee markers.  If the day ends up being significantly shorter than the rated yardage (scorecard yardage), I will go and speak with the GM about it, explaining my concerns about handicapping.  That usually fixes the issue. 

I realize that this approach won't work with your course's management, so you have little left to do but go to the associations (TGA first).  I don't think that re-rating is required, as that's done from the permanent markers anyway.  As others have said, just base your handicap posting on the yardage you played that day, don't worry about the colour of the tee marker(s).

[JohnB92]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

When I'm playing at my home course and notice on the first couple holes that the tee markers are quite short of the permanent markers, I start keeping track of how many yards they are short.  This is easy, just pace from the permanent marker to the tee markers.  If the day ends up being significantly shorter than the rated yardage (scorecard yardage), I will go and speak with the GM about it, explaining my concerns about handicapping.  That usually fixes the issue. 

I realize that this approach won't work with your course's management, so you have little left to do but go to the associations (TGA first).  I don't think that re-rating is required, as that's done from the permanent markers anyway.  As others have said, just base your handicap posting on the yardage you played that day, don't worry about the colour of the tee marker(s).

I'm taking a note card out with me today so I can track how many of the permanent markers I can find, and their relation to the spots we are instructed to play from. Then at least I won't be guessing and adding up yardage but doing it in relation to the actual markers the CR was made from. I'll see what TGA says as well. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, JohnB92 said:

@Newby Don't you have some kind of official or semi-official association with the R&A on these things? I appreciate you chiming in. 

 

As you might expect, there are a number of officials/referees who read and contribute to this particular forum quite often.

 

rogolf (Canada), newby & Colin (UK), Mr Bean (Finland), sui generis & davep043 (USA), and antip (Aust), are/were(?) all officials, all extremely knowledgable, and a few of them even have a sense of humor 

 

Just kidding, even Mr Bean will crack a (subtle of course) joke here and there.

 

All of them pretty good guys, even if they occasionally pull the old 4th-grade, shriveled up, "think for yourself" kinda teacher, who asked the kind of question that made some of us verrrrrry uncomfortable in front of the class, "Well nsxguy, what do YOU think ?!?!?!" 

 

 

 

P.S. I've almost certainly missed a few - sorry about that gents.

[mark m]

53 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

I'm taking a note card out with me today so I can track how many of the permanent markers I can find, and their relation to the spots we are instructed to play from. Then at least I won't be guessing and adding up yardage but doing it in relation to the actual markers the CR was made from. I'll see what TGA says as well. 

 

I would keep track of where the tees markers are placed in relation to the permanent in-ground markers. I have some strong opinions based on experiences with this specific topic years ago. It's a touchy subject, and you will need to be careful in how you approach the course managers. At my course years ago, it was the older rangers who were moving the tees forward on every hole (and they were the problem). The course super took this responsibility away from them and the issue was solved. 

 

Random thoughts:

 

Before the WHS (and PCC), the recommendation was to keep course yardage consistent - the USGA recommended to stay within 22 yards of total course yardage (not per hole, but total). The addition of PCC may have been the reason the language was changed, because scoring anomalies could occur and an adjustment to the rating would automatically happen. But when the distance difference is off considerably and noticed by some, and then they change by playing from different areas (or tee colors) and then posting scores under a different (but more accurate) color, this could throw off the PCC adjustment. What needs to happen here is this course needs to be committed to excellence and set the course up properly so that its playing length matches the ratings.

 

So yes, keep track of the difference between the permanent plates and the tee markers. Let's say the tees you are playing from are consistently well short of the listed distance. I would show that to them and ask them what you should do(?) Tell them you like playing from 6500 yards (or whatever it is), that you are paying for that distance as well. And don't worry about the hole locations in terms of hole distance. The superintendent should be using a front/back/middle hole location rotation or a numbering system of some kind which basically zeros out the distance differences on the greens over 18 holes. 

[rogolf]

A couple things - 1) the scorecard works very well for keeping track of distance between the permanent markers and tee markers of the day (I just just record + or - for each hole); 2) the daily hole locations are irrelevant for course rating yardage, rating yardage is measured to the middle of the green, thus it's only the daily tee markers that make any difference.

Edited February 11 by rogolf