USGA Handicap Submissions, Based on tee box color or tee box information?

[SNIPERBBB]

4 hours ago, JohnB92 said:

Yea that's exactly what I said they should do, just not put those markers out in the first place. I understand why they don't want a random walk-on 15 HDCP playing a course for the first time from 7400 yards when a tour event will be held there in 2 months. But all of this could be solved by just building the scorecard in the manner they actually want the public to play, instead of trying to be sneaky and get around a couple dufus players. It's mostly regulars who play here anyways. If you don't live in Harris County you have to pay like $120 greens fee, versus me paying $28 - $48. So it's not like they are fooling very many people anyways.

What most people are missing (not you) is that it's not really just what I, as my own individual person, should do about MY scores. It's about how I should handle this, in light of how posting scores based on tees I adjusted myself would place things out of sync with everyone else on the course. Not to mention how doing this without an adjustment will severely change the HDCP of everyone who plays out here relative to the rest of courses in the area.  It's also a question of SCALE, which is seeming to go over a few people's heads (not you). We are talking 3.1 Course Rating difference and almost 900 yards. Not "oh they shortened a hole or two by 50 yards so whatever".

Nobody is out there looking for the permanent markers in the ground. I don't believe anyone on here who says, "Yea I play from the tee markers as the grounds crew placed them, but I always double check to make sure they are within +/- 10 yards or I adjust the tee I post my score from".

Anyways, I'll find out what the USGA and TGA say is supposed to be done. I'll also ask the course management if they've gotten any guidance on how we should be posting scores in light of the setup. 

Are permanent tee markers that common?

 

 

I can't recall iny area any courses that have permanent markers 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Are permanent tee markers that common?

 

I can't recall iny area any courses that have permanent markers 

 

Most courses seem to have one or two. Heck, here, my AGA will install a set for you when the course is new at the yardage of your most popular set of tees (usually the one-up tees).

[mark m]

Typically the permanent yardage plates have the local golf association symbol on them. Some are square, some round, etc. - and some courses put a plastic base plate under so grass doesn’t grow over them. I used to use google earth to make notes for comps, and I would look for them and use the measurement tool to determine distance to cover bunkers/hazards, etc. Then I could adjust depending on the tee placement that day. Examples - both have a white square just off the tee. Usually they are on the edge or just off the tee box. 

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Are permanent tee markers that common?

 

 

I can't recall iny area any courses that have permanent markers 

 

I believe a permanent marker is required for a course to be rated. They are not always obvious.

[SNIPERBBB]

2 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

I believe a permanent marker is required for a course to be rated. They are not always obvious.

Our courses have monuments at usually the normal men's tees that list the scorecard yardages for each tee but  I've never seen an individual yardage plaque at each box. 

[nsxguy]

These are the typical yardage markers embedded on the tees at the chea errrrr,,,,,, less expensive courses I play.

 

[jvincent]

50 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Our courses have monuments at usually the normal men's tees that list the scorecard yardages for each tee but  I've never seen an individual yardage plaque at each box. 

 

They can be as simple as a coloured brick next to the tee box, or something like this one from Erin Hills.

 

[Shilgy]

If all of the tee markers are moved up…essentially to the next “color” I would post from the appropriate color/yardage and not the color played.

 

In case that wasn’t clear(my own pot was poorly worded)

 

If a course is rated , for example, as different tees at 700/6500/6000 and for pace of play or whatever reason the 7000 tee color was place on all of the 6500 tee boxes I would definitely post as the 6500 yard course, not the color played.

[Shilgy]

20 hours ago, st1800e said:

Can’t see why this is perplexing.  If you play from the tees that are ~6500 on the card, enter your score based on those tees, color is irrelevant.  Otherwise,  play 6500 and the color of the marker is for 7000, put in 7000 if you wish,

but that’s just plain incorrect.   

I knew I should have read the rest of the posts before posting…just posted the same.🤯

[Newby]

The Course Rating Manual says: .... from each set of permanent markers should be established.

[JohnB92]

6 hours ago, mark m said:

 

I would keep track of where the tees markers are placed in relation to the permanent in-ground markers. I have some strong opinions based on experiences with this specific topic years ago. It's a touchy subject, and you will need to be careful in how you approach the course managers. At my course years ago, it was the older rangers who were moving the tees forward on every hole (and they were the problem). The course super took this responsibility away from them and the issue was solved. 

 

Random thoughts:

 

Before the WHS (and PCC), the recommendation was to keep course yardage consistent - the USGA recommended to stay within 22 yards of total course yardage (not per hole, but total). The addition of PCC may have been the reason the language was changed, because scoring anomalies could occur and an adjustment to the rating would automatically happen. But when the distance difference is off considerably and noticed by some, and then they change by playing from different areas (or tee colors) and then posting scores under a different (but more accurate) color, this could throw off the PCC adjustment. What needs to happen here is this course needs to be committed to excellence and set the course up properly so that its playing length matches the ratings.

 

So yes, keep track of the difference between the permanent plates and the tee markers. Let's say the tees you are playing from are consistently well short of the listed distance. I would show that to them and ask them what you should do(?) Tell them you like playing from 6500 yards (or whatever it is), that you are paying for that distance as well. And don't worry about the hole locations in terms of hole distance. The superintendent should be using a front/back/middle hole location rotation or a numbering system of some kind which basically zeros out the distance differences on the greens over 18 holes. 

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Most courses seem to have one or two. Heck, here, my AGA will install a set for you when the course is new at the yardage of your most popular set of tees (usually the one-up tees).

 

1 hour ago, Newby said:

The Course Rating Manual says: .... from each set of permanent markers should be established.

Yea so for all the people who think this is super simple "look for the markers, that's your tee for posting, its obvious" I walked the entire circumference of each tee box that I played today looking for the markers. There are NO permanent markers in the style mentioned. The only things that have any distance or other hole related information are 3 sprinkler heads on (3 of 5) Par 3s. They don't have any color, tee information or anything else. Just a brass stamp with a yardage on it. So, there are no "permanent markers" to go off of.

As for what @mark m said about talking to them, I highly doubt they will care "what I'm paying for". The longest club required to on an approach shot today on a Par 4 or 5 was a 6 iron. Two Par - 5s were not reachable because I decided to hit my ball behind a tree. I'm not the only one another guy in my group was doing the same thing. 

I did ask the guys in the pro shop who I should talk with. I was given a name, but I don't expect a well-reasoned response. After giving the name, the pro shop guys asked, "If I would bounce the rules question off them since most of the time, we know generally what the answer is". So, I asked what tees I should be posting my scores at for HDCP due to the yardage change. The response was (looking at me like I was stoooopid) "what yardage change? If you play from blue tees you submit blue tees, white from whites. What do you mean?".

I tried to explain that the Course Rating is tied to the yardage where the permanent markers are, but I can't find those ("oh yea we don't have them, didn't install them after the renovation because everyone uses range finders anyways") so if the CR for blue tees is based on the 7400 yard back boxes and those are used in regular play which tees should I submit off of? 

Response: you'd post from blue. The blue tees course rating is for the blue tees. The yardage doesnt matter, we decide where to put the tee markers for pace of play reasons, so the course rating is for where the blue tee markers are.

I say: Well Appendix G says that the course rating has to be modified if individual holes or the course are shortened.

"Oh well I don't know anything about that, but don't worry about it. If you play blue, you post blue because that's the tees you played."

They aren't bad guys or anything, generally I like them. But it was like I was speaking a different language or quoting the rules of Frisbee Golf. The whole concept just couldn't be processed. I'll see what TGA and the guy who's supposed to be "the expert" has to say if I run into him next week.

[nsxguy]

16 minutes ago, JohnB92 said:

 

 

Yea so for all the people who think this is super simple "look for the markers, that's your tee for posting, its obvious" I walked the entire circumference of each tee box that I played today looking for the markers. There are NO permanent markers in the style mentioned. The only things that have any distance or other hole related information are 3 sprinkler heads on (3 of 5) Par 3s. They don't have any color, tee information or anything else. Just a brass stamp with a yardage on it. So, there are no "permanent markers" to go off of.

As for what @mark m said about talking to them, I highly doubt they will care "what I'm paying for". The longest club required to on an approach shot today on a Par 4 or 5 was a 6 iron. Two Par - 5s were not reachable because I decided to hit my ball behind a tree. I'm not the only one another guy in my group was doing the same thing. 

I did ask the guys in the pro shop who I should talk with. I was given a name, but I don't expect a well-reasoned response. After giving the name, the pro shop guys asked, "If I would bounce the rules question off them since most of the time, we know generally what the answer is". So, I asked what tees I should be posting my scores at for HDCP due to the yardage change. The response was (looking at me like I was stoooopid) "what yardage change? If you play from blue tees you submit blue tees, white from whites. What do you mean?".

I tried to explain that the Course Rating is tied to the yardage where the permanent markers are, but I can't find those ("oh yea we don't have them, didn't install them after the renovation because everyone uses range finders anyways") so if the CR for blue tees is based on the 7400 yard back boxes and those are used in regular play which tees should I submit off of? 

Response: you'd post from blue. The blue tees course rating is for the blue tees. The yardage doesnt matter, we decide where to put the tee markers for pace of play reasons, so the course rating is for where the blue tee markers are.

I say: Well Appendix G says that the course rating has to be modified if individual holes or the course are shortened.

"Oh well I don't know anything about that, but don't worry about it. If you play blue, you post blue because that's the tees you played."

They aren't bad guys or anything, generally I like them. But it was like I was speaking a different language or quoting the rules of Frisbee Golf. The whole concept just couldn't be processed. I'll see what TGA and the guy who's supposed to be "the expert" has to say if I run into him next week.

 

This sounds like the worst NYC muni - a guy manning the cash register and a starter,,,,,,,,,,,, and that's it.

 

Clearly management doesn't care and whoever was there doesn't know anything.

 

I would wait and see what your association says - your only choice at the moment. Keep us posted.

[Hawkeye77]

For the millionth time - select white tees for inputting your scores.  Easy. 
 

How short the course is playing and how little you enjoy really isn’t relevant to the handicap issue.  
 

You can go on this quest, but no reason to bug the guys in the shop - up to the course owner or whomever is designated by the owner to deal with the association and the ratings (not random customers).  What they are doing makes little sense, don’t think anyone is disputing that, but you already have a way of managing the situation for handicap purposes.

Edited February 12 by Hawkeye77

[mark m]

It’s quite a strange situation. Particularly because this course hosts the Houston Open? Typically these courses make a big stack on these events which lead to a number of improvements. I am very surprised at their attitude. Hopefully it will be addressed in the near future.

 

So it looks like you are on your own for now. Hopefully the course is otherwise in good shape. But just so you know, they must have a permanent marker at each rated tee box. Below is from Appendix G of the Handicap Manual. 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

Texas GA course rating service:

 

https://www.txga.org/course-rating-service/

 

 

 

Edited February 12 by mark m

[JohnB92]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

This sounds like the worst NYC muni - a guy manning the cash register and a starter,,,,,,,,,,,, and that's it.

 

Clearly management doesn't care and whoever was there doesn't know anything.

 

I would wait and see what your association says - your only choice at the moment. Keep us posted.

That's the thing, the people who work there aren't bad folks at all. It really does seem like a situation where someone, well intentioned told the grounds crew to start doing it. Since it's not something that will come up very often, I understand why it's not on the front of their concern list. 
 

20 minutes ago, mark m said:

It’s quite a strange situation. Particularly because this course hosts the Houston Open? Typically these courses make a big stack on these events which lead to a number of improvements. I am very surprised at their attitude. Hopefully it will be addressed in the near future.

 

So it looks like you are on your own for now. Hopefully the course is otherwise in good shape. But just so you know, they should have a permanent marker at each rated tee box. This is from Appendix G of the Handicap Manual. 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

 

 

It's almost TOO successful. The place is packed out every single day. All tee times booked 7 days out, walk on list is 15 people deep by 11 am. It's the only public course that Harris County residents can play for under $50 that is green in the winter, nobody else inside the city limits overseeds (if someone knows of another place PM me lol). The bunkers are in perfect shape with great sand. Great contours and hole routing, every hole is unique. The greens are holding up as well as can be asked with how much play they get. It's truly an amazing deal. 

I'll see what TGA says, since that's the recommendation of the people who have some legitimate authority on the subject and paid attention to the discussion. I'll report back for those interested.

[mark m]

8 hours ago, JohnB92 said:

That's the thing, the people who work there aren't bad folks at all. It really does seem like a situation where someone, well intentioned told the grounds crew to start doing it. Since it's not something that will come up very often, I understand why it's not on the front of their concern list. 
 

It's almost TOO successful. The place is packed out every single day. All tee times booked 7 days out, walk on list is 15 people deep by 11 am. It's the only public course that Harris County residents can play for under $50 that is green in the winter, nobody else inside the city limits overseeds (if someone knows of another place PM me lol). The bunkers are in perfect shape with great sand. Great contours and hole routing, every hole is unique. The greens are holding up as well as can be asked with how much play they get. It's truly an amazing deal. 

I'll see what TGA says, since that's the recommendation of the people who have some legitimate authority on the subject and paid attention to the discussion. I'll report back for those interested.

I would be irritated as well. But I have a background as a 3 time Handicap Chair  and I also ran club tournaments for years - including working with the pro and super to set up and also improve the course. But it does sound like a good course and a great deal for you. You can probably come up with something on your own until they address the issue. How long ago was the renovation you mentioned earlier?

 

If it was recent and the renovation is completely finished, perhaps they just haven’t got to it yet?

 

Or if they are planning on more changes in the near future, especially to tee boxes, that would be another reason for the lack of permanent yardage plates at this time.
 

I do like your previous stated idea of adding additional tees. IMHO 450 yard difference between tees (which is 25 yards per hole) works well if the topography makes it possible. It’s enough to help manage turf issues, and will likely provide around a 2.0 difference in course ratings.

 

Edit: I looked on their website and it says the major renovations happened in 2019 (Tom Doak with Brooks Koepka consulting.)  They also are changing hole #17 from a par 4 to a par 3. Beginning Wednesday. I would look for it to be properly marked and re-rated when the improvements are complete. They could do a better job communicating to the staff and public about the changes and the ratings so players are able to properly post scores. But we’ve seen this before in other threads. This area is often overlooked. See photo below. 

 

Best of luck - and please keep us informed. 
 

Edited February 12 by mark m
New findings

[bcjim]

Contacting the sga is the right move.  Someone needs to tell the course to stop doing this because all of the white and probably 90% of the blue tee scores submitted are from the same tees it sounds like.   

Very few golfers are going to say,  "well it was the blue markers but obv the white tees so I'm going to post from the white. "

 

I can see why the course does this with such a discrepancy in distance but their solution is improper.  74xx is way too long for a "blue" tee especially on a course that may be prone to wet conditions often. 

 

[Hawkeye77]

25 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Contacting the sga is the right move.  Someone needs to tell the course to stop doing this because all of the white and probably 90% of the blue tee scores submitted are from the same tees it sounds like.   

Very few golfers are going to say,  "well it was the blue markers but obv the white tees so I'm going to post from the white. "

 

I can see why the course does this with such a discrepancy in distance but their solution is improper.  74xx is way too long for a "blue" tee especially on a course that may be prone to wet conditions often. 

 

The course is under the supervision of the Houston Park & Rec Department.  A more productive approach would be to have a nice discussion with someone there if all of the individuals working at the course really don’t have any authority to make decisions or don’t understand the problem. Might result in someone with actual supervisory authority having a nice discussion with the association and be of more long term benefit for everyone. It’s not a “crisis”, go through the appropriate channels. 
 

Or maybe they just put the blue markers in the shed and the other markers where they normally are and magically there is no problem at all. But might take a conversation or two vs. some “report”. 

Edited February 12 by Hawkeye77

[mark m]

The Tour plays this course as a long (7400+) par 70. (Where it is typically a par 72 for the rest of us.) The change on hole #17 to a par 3 (mentioned above) would make this course a par 69, which would be very unusual. I assume another adjustment is being made to a hole on the back nine. Just curious if they also have added a new back tee on #14? It plays as a 529 par 4. This hole does have some room to go back, where #18 (503 yards) does not. Thanks 

[nsxguy]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:25 PM, JohnB92 said:

The difference is huge:
Blue Tees: 74.2/ 128, 7432 yards.
White Tees: 71.1 / 121 6553 yards.

 

I'm a bit confused (again). I can't seem to find a scorecard on google. Where do these ratings come from ?

 

[edited to NOT mislead anyone - I had the wrong name of the golf course. NOT Houston Memorial, but Memorial Park]

 

Thanks to those who caught the error. 👍

 

 

 

Edited February 12 by nsxguy

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Where do these ratings come from ?

 

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo?CourseID=4532

 

[mark m]

It’s Memorial Park

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

Here is the USGA CR/slope info

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

In addition, a CR north of 74 for men will almost never be less than 7k yards. The men's White tee rating of 71.1 also is very reasonable for a ~6500 yard course as well as the women's rating of 76.6 (inline with the typical 5 - 7 stroke difference usually seen).

[iacas]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

In addition, a CR north of 74 for men will almost never be less than 7k yards. The men's White tee rating of 71.1 also is very reasonable for a ~6500 yard course as well as the women's rating of 76.6 (inline with the typical 5 - 7 stroke difference usually seen).

 

6804 yards here at 74.0/145. So, technically, NOT "north of" 😄 

 

https://whisperingwoodsgc.com/golf/course/

 

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo?CourseID=5409

 

But, yes, typically > 74 requires more than 6804 yards.

[mark m]

It’s obvious they are making changes to the course and some of the tees. In the meantime, because the Houston Open is at the end of March, they don’t want play from any tee areas that may be used in the event. This is common. They sometimes rope off those tees or cover them. 
 

But regardless they could have easily put out a statement that changes are being made, and some areas closed to prepare for the Tour event, and so on. And the Blue and White tees have been temporarily moved up and here are some temporary yardages and ratings. “We appreciate your patience” etc. 

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, mark m said:

It’s obvious they are making changes to the course and some of the tees. In the meantime, because the Houston Open is at the end of March, they don’t want play from any tee areas that may be used in the event. This is common. They sometimes rope off those tees or cover them. 
 

But regardless they could have easily put out a statement that changes are being made, and some areas closed to prepare for the Tour event, and so on. And the Blue and White tees have been temporarily moved up and here are some temporary yardages and ratings. “We appreciate your patience” etc. 

 

Or as you(?) mentioned earlier, just leave the blue tees in the storage shed.

 

And we still don't know about any permanent markers yet, do we ?

 

As I see it the real issue here is/could be the bogus differentials likely to have been input into so many(?) scoring records. An awful lot of vanity cappers around if they're entering blue tees on GHIN.

 

I don't know if there are any formal clubs at the course but if there are I hope at least the members, or the 'cap committee(s) are entering the rounds correctly.

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

6804 yards here at 74.0/145. So, technically, NOT "north of" 😄 

 

https://whisperingwoodsgc.com/golf/course/

 

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo?CourseID=5409

 

But, yes, typically > 74 requires more than 6804 yards.

Agree that it can happen, but is atypical. You will see very high sloped courses in the high 6000s pushing CRs of 74, as you found.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Or as you(?) mentioned earlier, just leave the blue tees in the storage shed.

 

And we still don't know about any permanent markers yet, do we ?

 

As I see it the real issue here is/could be the bogus differentials likely to have been input into so many(?) scoring records. An awful lot of vanity cappers around if they're entering blue tees on GHIN.

 

I don't know if there are any formal clubs at the course but if there are I hope at least the members, or the 'cap committee(s) are entering the rounds correctly.

That’s definitely a potential issue and yep, easily avoided by just not putting out the blue tees. The other and real issue is that someone can’t play from the actual blue tee areas. 😉 

The handicap workaround is an easy one in the short term.

Sounds like the course (or parks dept.) just needs some real (and productive) conversations (or take the time to put together something for them and propose it, maybe educate in a constructive way) — but there must be a quest and go around everyone and make a “report”. 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Agree that it can happen, but is atypical. You will see very high sloped courses in the high 6000s pushing CRs of 74, as you found.

Another factor which is important that I forgot to mention is forced layups can impact the effective playing length of the course making a shorter course play longer. Three or four holes with forced layups around 210 or 220 will boost the EPL by 100 yards or more making a high 6000s course play close to or exceed 7k.