Final Update!!! Are iron hosel bore depths different throughout a set....I'm an Idiot!!!

quizzylish · April 18

5 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

OK yes 10.7 mm is 6.9 grams (or 7 if you like)

Is there something to be said about where I put the lead tape. Reading through another thread people warned about lead tape on the iron and then putting the same weight in the hosel with a tip weight?

Howard_Jones · April 18

53 minutes ago, quizzylish said:

Is there something to be said about where I put the lead tape. Reading through another thread people warned about lead tape on the iron and then putting the same weight in the hosel with a tip weight?

Since you dont have a SW scale, DONT worry, this is just like all other measurements...
As long as we use "the same system and method" you can measure club length as "number of coffee cups" if you like, as long as you do it for all clubs, you will be just fine.

(Did you know that 1 drop of water on a flat surface is always 10 mm?, that means 1 meter is really a line of 100 drops of water, but could just as well have been "10 coffee cups" ...)

Since we are on a tech forum, some readers dont like that kind of answers, so lets deep dive into it, and see what difference it makes...

Irons has in general, a BBGM of 1.25", so lets use a #9 iron of 36.00" and see what happens if we add 4 grams as tip wgt, or as lead tape UNDER the sole, (we cant, but lets stretch it for the sake of example)

It will be like comparing that we add 4 grams to a 36.00" club from this chart, vs 4 grams added to a 37.25 long club.

How much off target do we go?

4 grams as Tip wgt in a 36.00" club adds 1.8 SWP (chart below)
4 grams as lead tape under the sole of the same club adds 1.9 SWP
So...on the paper (in this case), we miss target with 0.1 SWP...but when we do it for ALL, it will NOT matter
Converted to grams, 1 SWP at 36.00" is 2.26 grams and 10% (0.1) becomes 0.22 grams off, but for ALL

Tell me the name of THAT club maker, who can build irons with a tighter tolerance than 0.1 SWP?

So, it does NOT matter where we add the weight, on the back as lead tape, or in the hosel as tip weight
Keep in mind., that if we DONT make sure loft and lie is right before dry fit, 4 on lie angle = 1 SWP, so if all irons is good., but one needed a adjustment of 1.0* up or down after we made the clubs. we move SW by 0.25 points, so making sure loft and lie is at least "equal" before we start, is more important than where we add the weight, as long as we add weight at the same place for all.

Another "error" is adding grips, and then use the SW scale to get all clubs to "D3" as example
Grip wgt tolerances is plus minus 3.5 grams, so worse case scenario delivers a set of grips with 7 grams from the lightest tpo the most heavy of them, and its only 5 grams grip side to move SW by 1 point...at the first grip change, that balance job is no longer good...

Thats why we should dry fit WITHOUT grips, so head side vs shaft become right, then use grip wgt tolerances to even out total weight progression and call it a day...

Edited April 18 by Howard_Jones

azone · April 18

Building clubs is a simple process. The lesson here is to understand what you are doing before you start...strip everything down...weigh and measure everything so you know what you have and what you need to do. Used components can have all sorts of things going on, but are still usable, generally, if you know what you are doing-- know what you have, and know how to get from what you have to what you want.

quizzylish · April 19

19 hours ago, azone said:

Building clubs is a simple process. The lesson here is to understand what you are doing before you start...strip everything down...weigh and measure everything so you know what you have and what you need to do. Used components can have all sorts of things going on, but are still usable, generally, if you know what you are doing-- know what you have, and know how to get from what you have to what you want.

I agree and thank you. I learned a lot in this process and that is to not take anything for granted. I will be sure to remove grips, check insertion depth, SW, individual weights and total weight.

quizzylish · Saturday at 01:22 AM

On 4/18/2024 at 3:39 PM, Howard_Jones said:

Since you dont have a SW scale, DONT worry, this is just like all other measurements...
As long as we use "the same system and method" you can measure club length as "number of coffee cups" if you like, as long as you do it for all clubs, you will be just fine.

(Did you know that 1 drop of water on a flat surface is always 10 mm?, that means 1 meter is really a line of 100 drops of water, but could just as well have been "10 coffee cups" ...)

Since we are on a tech forum, some readers dont like that kind of answers, so lets deep dive into it, and see what difference it makes...

Irons has in general, a BBGM of 1.25", so lets use a #9 iron of 36.00" and see what happens if we add 4 grams as tip wgt, or as lead tape UNDER the sole, (we cant, but lets stretch it for the sake of example)

It will be like comparing that we add 4 grams to a 36.00" club from this chart, vs 4 grams added to a 37.25 long club.

How much off target do we go?

4 grams as Tip wgt in a 36.00" club adds 1.8 SWP (chart below)
4 grams as lead tape under the sole of the same club adds 1.9 SWP
So...on the paper (in this case), we miss target with 0.1 SWP...but when we do it for ALL, it will NOT matter
Converted to grams, 1 SWP at 36.00" is 2.26 grams and 10% (0.1) becomes 0.22 grams off, but for ALL

Tell me the name of THAT club maker, who can build irons with a tighter tolerance than 0.1 SWP?

So, it does NOT matter where we add the weight, on the back as lead tape, or in the hosel as tip weight
Keep in mind., that if we DONT make sure loft and lie is right before dry fit, 4 on lie angle = 1 SWP, so if all irons is good., but one needed a adjustment of 1.0* up or down after we made the clubs. we move SW by 0.25 points, so making sure loft and lie is at least "equal" before we start, is more important than where we add the weight, as long as we add weight at the same place for all.

Another "error" is adding grips, and then use the SW scale to get all clubs to "D3" as example
Grip wgt tolerances is plus minus 3.5 grams, so worse case scenario delivers a set of grips with 7 grams from the lightest tpo the most heavy of them, and its only 5 grams grip side to move SW by 1 point...at the first grip change, that balance job is no longer good...

Thats why we should dry fit WITHOUT grips, so head side vs shaft become right, then use grip wgt tolerances to even out total weight progression and call it a day...

So I went to the range and dialed in the 9 iron at 36". I had to put a small 1/4 inch extension on to get it to 36", I ended up trimming the insert of the extension to make it as light as I could to not affect overall weight.

I ended up having to add 8.8 grams of lead tape to get it right. I went from 2 to 4 pieces of tape and then added a 5th and I thought I was doing well with I but looked down and realized the 5th pieced flew off at some point, so I figured it was settled at 4 strips. I do have a basic golfworks SW scale and its D4-D4.5 but I fear with the extension and the overall feel of the club is out-of-whack because of all the cutting and changing but maybe its just mental at this point.

The overall weight of of the club is 464.9 grams, does that seem high? Is 8.8 grams added a lot of weight to make something feel good. I just worry I'm making the club too heavy and now the weight and feel is too much and too different with some clubs having extensions and some not. Maybe I should just start over with new, uncut shafts.

Or if everything seems on point, then I will keep moving forward with most shafts needing extensions added and a couple just trimming at the 2mm slope for the 10.7mm progression. I'll just keep the head weights changing at 6.9 grams per head, correct?

Edited Saturday at 01:35 AM by quizzylish

Howard_Jones · Saturday at 06:07 AM

4 hours ago, quizzylish said:

So I went to the range and dialed in the 9 iron at 36". I had to put a small 1/4 inch extension on to get it to 36", I ended up trimming the insert of the extension to make it as light as I could to not affect overall weight.

I ended up having to add 8.8 grams of lead tape to get it right. I went from 2 to 4 pieces of tape and then added a 5th and I thought I was doing well with I but looked down and realized the 5th pieced flew off at some point, so I figured it was settled at 4 strips. I do have a basic golfworks SW scale and its D4-D4.5 but I fear with the extension and the overall feel of the club is out-of-whack because of all the cutting and changing but maybe its just mental at this point.

The overall weight of of the club is 464.9 grams, does that seem high? Is 8.8 grams added a lot of weight to make something feel good. I just worry I'm making the club too heavy and now the weight and feel is too much and too different with some clubs having extensions and some not. Maybe I should just start over with new, uncut shafts.

Or if everything seems on point, then I will keep moving forward with most shafts needing extensions added and a couple just trimming at the 2mm slope for the 10.7mm progression. I'll just keep the head weights changing at 6.9 grams per head, correct?

Whats is head weight itself on the #9 iron, including the 8 grams added?, and what is grip weight?
Its nothing strange about a SW value of D4 - D4.5 for a #9 iron

in the end, numbers is only for use in the work shop, what matters is how it feels and works for YOU.

YES - head wgt slope of 6.9 grams average is what the 10.7 mm slope should have

Edited Saturday at 06:07 AM by Howard_Jones

quizzylish · Saturday at 11:59 AM

5 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Whats is head weight itself on the #9 iron, including the 8 grams added?, and what is grip weight?
Its nothing strange about a SW value of D4 - D4.5 for a #9 iron

in the end, numbers is only for use in the work shop, what matters is how it feels and works for YOU.

YES - head wgt slope of 6.9 grams average is what the 10.7 mm slope should have

Thanks Howard, the head weight for the 9 is 289.8 grams with the lead tape. The grip GP tour velvet and is 50.5 grams. 2 wraps of tape.

Edited Saturday at 12:47 PM by quizzylish

Howard_Jones · Saturday at 12:24 PM

33 minutes ago, quizzylish said:

Thanks Howard, the head weight for the 9 is 289.8 grams with the lead tape. The grip is 50.5 grams. 2 wraps of tape.

Its no standards for anything when it comes to Golf tech, except that the head is always on the thin end of the shaft, and the grip is always on the thickest and of the shaft, but in my charts, a "standard" #9 iron head is 282 grams, and if we add 8, we get 290 or what you found to work, so its nothing unusual with your numbers.

If that head weight is right for you, play it.

If you by 2 wraps means 1 layer of grip tape and 1 layer of BU, "true SW" is about D5, and many players use that.

Seen from a MOI point of view, where we have 4/8" between clubs, a Poor mans MOI match with a #9 thats D5 looks like this

#9 = D5
#8 = D4.5
#7 = D4
#6 = D3.5
#5 = D3
#4 = D2.5
#3 = D2

Most players irons used to be D3, and it was typical the #6 iron we used for fitting, so its really 0.5 SWP up or 1.5 SWP up from D2 if we look at it based on the #6 as fitting club.

If you used 2 layers of GRIP tape, its even less, and then we talk MAX 2 grams added to a #6 iron, and its noting special about that, its way within any norm, so its no reason to think you over did it, unless it feels too heavy.

Edited Saturday at 12:35 PM by Howard_Jones

quizzylish · Sunday at 06:18 PM

On 4/27/2024 at 8:24 AM, Howard_Jones said:

Its no standards for anything when it comes to Golf tech, except that the head is always on the thin end of the shaft, and the grip is always on the thickest and of the shaft, but in my charts, a "standard" #9 iron head is 282 grams, and if we add 8, we get 290 or what you found to work, so its nothing unusual with your numbers.

If that head weight is right for you, play it.

If you by 2 wraps means 1 layer of grip tape and 1 layer of BU, "true SW" is about D5, and many players use that.

Seen from a MOI point of view, where we have 4/8" between clubs, a Poor mans MOI match with a #9 thats D5 looks like this

#9 = D5
#8 = D4.5
#7 = D4
#6 = D3.5
#5 = D3
#4 = D2.5
#3 = D2

Most players irons used to be D3, and it was typical the #6 iron we used for fitting, so its really 0.5 SWP up or 1.5 SWP up from D2 if we look at it based on the #6 as fitting club.

If you used 2 layers of GRIP tape, its even less, and then we talk MAX 2 grams added to a #6 iron, and its noting special about that, its way within any norm, so its no reason to think you over did it, unless it feels too heavy.

I never even heard of BU tape before you mentioned that. I just assumed it was 2 layers of grip tape. Can standard Masking tape work as a single layer or is BU tape a specific type/thickness.

Howard_Jones · Sunday at 06:35 PM

17 minutes ago, quizzylish said:

I never even heard of BU tape before you mentioned that. I just assumed it was 2 layers of grip tape. Can standard Masking tape work as a single layer or is BU tape a specific type/thickness.

Golf standard GRIP tape adds 0.010" - always included when we talk grip size
Golf standard Build up tape (glue on only one side) adds 0.015" ( 4 layers = MID / 8 layers = Jumbo)

Use what ever tape you like as BU, and use a caliper to measure how much 1 layer of YOUR tape adds.
Start by a measurement for the shaft butt itself, add 1 layer of your BU tape, measure again.

We say that a "standard shaft butt" is 0.600"
With 1 layer grip tape, and a standard 0.60 core grip, OD measured 2.0" inch below the butt shall be 0.900

Focus on the shaft butt as you build up

0.600 -. plain shaft
0.615 = 1 layer
0.630 = 2 layers
0.645 = 3 layers
0.660 = 4 layers - a standard grip becomes MID size or 0.960 measured 2.0 inch below the butt
0.675 = 5 layers
0.690 = 6 layers
0.705 = 7 layers
0.720 = 8 layers - a standard grip becomes JUMBO or 1.020 measured 2.0 inch below the butt

WE can use regular grip tape, but then each layer only adds 0.010, so MID size makes a need for 6 layers +1 as grip tape a total of 7 layers.

The tape length for BU tape is average 10.0"
NO BU tape "over the butt", (it will mess up play length, since we "shim" the shaft butt slightly longer, so its only thge last layer with grip tape we cut 11 inch long, so we can close the shaft.

Look at the grips you have, its 2 rings in the front, and 2 rings close to the butt.
For THAT grip, "tape length" is between the 2. ring from the top,m and the 2 ring from the bottom.>
NO tape under the last tip of the grip.

Measure YOUR grips /(white rings to white rings), and take notes to cut BU tape to the correct length, and use that measurement when you install them, to make sure you did not stretch the grips longer than they are >(makes OD smaller if you do)*

Edited Sunday at 06:35 PM by Howard_Jones

st1800e · Monday at 01:15 AM

6 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Golf standard GRIP tape adds 0.010" - always included when we talk grip size
Golf standard Build up tape (glue on only one side) adds 0.015" ( 4 layers = MID / 8 layers = Jumbo)

Hi Howard, seems those tape specs are the opposite of the GolfWorks tape that a lot of us use over here.

They specify .014 double sided grip tape, and .010 build up tape. GW also sells a “full size” build up tape that is .015.

Different suppliers?

https://www.golfworks.com/search-results-page?q=Grip tape

Howard_Jones · Monday at 06:00 AM

4 hours ago, st1800e said:

Hi Howard, seems those tape specs are the opposite of the GolfWorks tape that a lot of us use over here.

They specify .014 double sided grip tape, and .010 build up tape. GW also sells a “full size” build up tape that is .015.

Different suppliers?

https://www.golfworks.com/search-results-page?q=Grip tape

YES, i used Mitchell (bending machine company)

Socrates · Monday at 02:54 PM

13 hours ago, st1800e said:

Hi Howard, seems those tape specs are the opposite of the GolfWorks tape that a lot of us use over here.

They specify .014 double sided grip tape, and .010 build up tape. GW also sells a “full size” build up tape that is .015.

Different suppliers?

https://www.golfworks.com/search-results-page?q=Grip tape

They are incorrect on their spec (in the Q & A) of .014 double sided grip tape. It is .010" and it might be thinner than that depending on whom they get it from.

They sell 2 varieties of build up tape. One is nothing more than masking tape and it is thinner.

The real build up tape is .014"