Not fading with club open to the path

[tensai]

Hi All, 

 

As a natural drawer, I have fighting a hook and have since tried switching to hitting a fade. 

 

I have been doing all the things necessary for hitting a fade and it works some times, but for other times, it is a straight pull. 

 

I have a slightly open stance, out-in swing around 5~7 degrees and club face is closed 2~4 degrees (so 1~6 degrees open to path) and instead of releasing, I try to hold off on the finish as long as possible (the feel is for the butt end of the shaft to point towards the sky as long possible). 

 

Any ideas why I might still be hitting pull shots?

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Probably hitting toe from holding it off.

 

There are easier ways to solve your problem.  Your post has a very bandaid pattern to it….which is fine to save a round, but nit good long term.

[iacas]

Either what Monte said or… how are you getting those numbers? Can you show us an example shot on the launch monitor (as much data as possible)?

[mgoblue83]

It's either gear effect from a toe strike like Monte said OR more likely bad data (improper setup) from the launch monitor.

 

What launch monitor are you using?

[Ri_Redneck]

I would say the pulls are the 1° differential with a normal margin of error. But I agree with Monte on that technique. Not the way to go about hitting a fade. Maybe a weak punch cut, if you're lucky.

 

BT

[badboggs]

I've wondered a similar thing.  If this is a bad way to hit a fade what is a good way?  Isn't aiming left and having the club face right of the path correct?  The actual angles themselves don't matter only the relative difference between them?

 

To ask this in another way.  I see setting up for a fade in two different ways.

 

1.  Setting up exactly parallel left to the desired aiming line (not target).  Then set the club open a few degrees to that line.  Swing a normal swing with the open club and the ball should start right of the aim line and curve right.

 

2.  Setting up parallel left to the intended target.  Make a swing where you swing left say 4 degrees but only close the club face 2 degrees.  The ball would start left of the target line and curve back to it.

 

Is there another option to consider?

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, badboggs said:

I've wondered a similar thing.  If this is a bad way to hit a fade what is a good way?  Isn't aiming left and having the club face right of the path correct?  The actual angles themselves don't matter only the relative difference between them?

 

I don't think anyone's saying it's a "bad" way to hit a fade — I think the problem is that the OP says it's often not fading. The OP also hasn't been back to answer a question or two about how he's getting the numbers, though, so…

[virtuoso]

My favorite posts are when someone asks a question and then goes off and joins the army, and gets shipped to the Middle East, but we here at the wrx argue with each other about it for 4 months.

[tthomasgolfer605]

It could be the dynamic lie angle is more upright than it should be. 

[badboggs]

I sympathize with missing it too far left.  I've found that when I do try to play the fade I'll eventually end up toe hooking a few especially with the driver.  But I've had some of my best iron rounds basically aiming left and letting the ball come back right.  But it is hard to lose as much distance as I do.

 

Also, for those that have good launch monitors I've always wondered what you focus on during practice.  For instance to you try to work on a consistent path and see how your face fluctuates with respect to it?  I need to get one someday!

[Ri_Redneck]

On 3/11/2024 at 8:13 PM, badboggs said:

I've wondered a similar thing.  If this is a bad way to hit a fade what is a good way?  Isn't aiming left and having the club face right of the path correct?  The actual angles themselves don't matter only the relative difference between them?

 

To ask this in another way.  I see setting up for a fade in two different ways.

 

1.  Setting up exactly parallel left to the desired aiming line (not target).  Then set the club open a few degrees to that line.  Swing a normal swing with the open club and the ball should start right of the aim line and curve right.

 

2.  Setting up parallel left to the intended target.  Make a swing where you swing left say 4 degrees but only close the club face 2 degrees.  The ball would start left of the target line and curve back to it.

 

Is there another option to consider?

Your 1 & 2 are FAR different from the technique described by the OP. Trying to manipulate the club at full speed is a fools errand. Your descriptions are simply setup differences, which is the correct way to do it.

 

BT

[golferdude54]

What the majority of golfers get wrong when it comes to creating a fade is they believe the path needs to be out-in. But in reality, it's that the face angle has to be open to the path, it doesn't matter if the path is out-in or in-out, it will always fade assuming face angle is open to path with sweet spot zero gear effect contact.

 

If you aim the clubface at the left edge of every fairway and green with a parallel left stance and swing in-out relative to your stance with an open face, you'll never pull it left because if you square it up to your path occasionally, it'll just be a straight push that finishes inside the fairway and green. Same for if you leave the face too open, you've already adjusted your aim and stance beforehand and you have the whole width of the fairway and green for your push-slice miss.

[badboggs]

I was on the range the other day with an aiming stick on the ground.  I realized that if you could zero your path the only difference between a draw and a fade is the club face angle at impact.  That was an interesting realization for me.  

 

So to take this a little deeper.  I've always had a natural club path of about 2 degrees out to in.  So if I wanted to fade the ball with a 6 degree left path I should actually aim about 4 degrees left.  And then I want to hold the face open 2-3 degrees right of the path?  But since the ball starts on the club face direction mostly I need the clubface at impact to be pointing at my left most target (left side of the green for instance).

 

I did get on trackman this week and it was fun to play around with all of these concepts with real time feedback.  I was surprised how consistent my angle of attack was even when I was trying different ideas.  I still don't feel like I know if I should be trying to hit the ball left to right or right to left.

[skim4]

I recently learned about all this path and face stuff. What really blew my mind was when I started hitting fades with a shut club face at set up and a draw with an open club face at set up. Mind blown. 

[golferdude54]

Pull-fades are not the type of fades you want to hit if you want the ball to be right every time. If you square up the face to an out-to-in path, the ball always goes and end up left which is a complete double-cross. Aiming at the left edge of every fairway and green with a push-fade swing that tightens up as you improve the mechanics is the best way to fade.

[badboggs]

Are you saying that because if you aim left and hit a push cut you aren't getting steep and over the top?

[Chunkitgood]

To answer the OP is it possible his club is too upright so that the face is more closed than the monitor has it?

 

I won’t get into the question of closed as to what, except to say that he could have a swing out to in with respect to some arbitrary “target line” yet still be in to out with respect to his body.  Or so I was taught.

[cav5]

18 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

Pull-fades are not the type of fades you want to hit if you want the ball to be right every time. If you square up the face to an out-to-in path, the ball always goes and end up left which is a complete double-cross. Aiming at the left edge of every fairway and green with a push-fade swing that tightens up as you improve the mechanics is the best way to fade.

 

What you're describing, and maybe you know without knowing, is ball control via bending the clubheads path which isn't done my moving the club's path. It's technically a swing change, and different kinetics. And you're correct btw if blessing means anything LOL.

 

With irons I "aim" left, open the face to me, and make a light hook swing that basically just goes straight

Edited March 20 by cav5

[Barfolomew]

WRX noob droppin loose data then dippin out....

 

[Ri_Redneck]

On 3/19/2024 at 4:17 PM, badboggs said:

I was on the range the other day with an aiming stick on the ground.  I realized that if you could zero your path the only difference between a draw and a fade is the club face angle at impact.  That was an interesting realization for me.  

 

So to take this a little deeper.  I've always had a natural club path of about 2 degrees out to in.  So if I wanted to fade the ball with a 6 degree left path I should actually aim about 4 degrees left.  And then I want to hold the face open 2-3 degrees right of the path?  But since the ball starts on the club face direction mostly I need the clubface at impact to be pointing at my left most target (left side of the green for instance).

 

I did get on trackman this week and it was fun to play around with all of these concepts with real time feedback.  I was surprised how consistent my angle of attack was even when I was trying different ideas.  I still don't feel like I know if I should be trying to hit the ball left to right or right to left.

THIS is the misconception! Attempting to "hold off" will destroy your timing and sequencing. No one can be that precise while swinging even 50%.

 

You adjust your hands on the club to present the face angle needed to hit the shot. Only a small amount is needed. 1/16" to 1/4" rotation (open or closed) of the grip in your hands will change the FA at impact plenty. Then you don't have to change your swing. Yes, the club will look slightly open or closed when you address the ball, but since you expect it, it's no big deal. Just swing like always and the ball will do what you want.

 

BT