I’m a plus with my woods a 10 with my irons.. why? (Vids)

[stevesteven1]

First two are an 8 iron, then driver for comparison, then a little drill I thought might be worth trying 

 

I feel narrow and steep with my irons , too armsy and unathletic. Miss is thin right never hook with anything 

 

any thoughts warmly welcomed 

 

*** new video added third page ****

Edited April 24 by stevesteven1

[TheDeanAbides]

I don't buy the "I'm a plus with my woods". Sorry. 

 

It would probably be helpful to put your right hand on the club instead of on your left hand. What's with the double overlap? Is that chasing a fix?

 

You'd benefit from  tucking your tailbone a little more under you at address and engaging your core. It'll feel weird, but it'll give you stability - something you lack.

 

You have quite a lot of arm overrun in the backswing, and that's hard to reconcile. When the shoulders stop the arms should stop. 

 

It look like you're scared to release the club and get through the ball. Your finish tells a story with the way you're hanging back and not getting through to your left side. There's a load of speed to pick up.

[iacas]

Fix your setup and put a little pressure into your right heel at the top:

 

 

Then… put the ball back where it belongs (much farther forward) and stop going into right tilt so quickly:

 

 

 

[Gsea]

59 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I don't buy the "I'm a plus with my woods". Sorry. 

100%

[stevesteven1]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I don't buy the "I'm a plus with my woods". Sorry. 

 

It would probably be helpful to put your right hand on the club instead of on your left hand. What's with the double overlap? Is that chasing a fix?

 

You'd benefit from  tucking your tailbone a little more under you at address and engaging your core. It'll feel weird, but it'll give you stability - something you lack.

 

You have quite a lot of arm overrun in the backswing, and that's hard to reconcile. When the shoulders stop the arms should stop. 

 

It look like you're scared to release the club and get through the ball. Your finish tells a story with the way you're hanging back and not getting through to your left side. There's a load of speed to pick up.

To clarify, I’m a home club hero 1 hcap and there is almost no one better I’ve played with that I would swap my driver/3 wood for. I hardly miss a fairway at 105mph so I don’t think it’s a stretch to say I’m a plus off the tee. 
 

on the other hand I’d swap my iron game for plenty of guys who aren’t necessarily that low a hcap. Only point I’m making is that to my eyes my driver swing looks much better than my 8 iron swing and I’m desperate to improve it 

 

the double overlap is new for me padraig tip for distance.  Happy to change everything and anything. 

[cardoustie]

Well your driver swing works because you pivot around your right leg and hang back

 

the iron swing is a different animal … you need weight shaft and a low spot 2-4” in front of the ball 

[TheDeanAbides]

15 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

Well your driver swing works because you pivot around your right leg and hang back

 

the iron swing is a different animal … you need weight shaft and a low spot 2-4” in front of the ball 

Yeah. This.

 

24 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

To clarify, I’m a home club hero 1 hcap and there is almost no one better I’ve played with that I would swap my driver/3 wood for. I hardly miss a fairway at 105mph so I don’t think it’s a stretch to say I’m a plus off the tee. 
 

on the other hand I’d swap my iron game for plenty of guys who aren’t necessarily that low a hcap. Only point I’m making is that to my eyes my driver swing looks much better than my 8 iron swing and I’m desperate to improve it 

 

the double overlap is new for me padraig tip for distance.  Happy to change everything and anything. 

The grip for power is looking in the wrong place. You'd be better off working on your ground forces because you're not really using the ground much. There's loads more in the tank. 

[Chrischo555]

unlike the other people here, I'm not here to attack you on technicalities. stand closer to the ball, choke up on the club a bit, and keep your chest more centered over the ball instead of falling back. If you're interested in the technical terms, we're just trying to get your vertical swing plane steeper and move your low point more forward.

[DFS PFD]

Fairway is a lot smaller target than the flag is. Odds are you're not as good with your woods as you think you are, you just have a much larger target. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Well your driver swing works because you pivot around your right leg and hang back

 

3 hours ago, iacas said:

…

 

Then… put the ball back where it belongs (much farther forward) and stop going into right tilt so quickly:

 

 

To elaborate a little… in many PGA Tour players, you'll see the hips level out around P5, and the shoulders level out around P6 (with an iron).

 

You can get away with this when the ball is teed up… not so much when it's on the ground.

Cue up also the latest AMG video on left side tilt and how long you stay tilted slightly that direction.

 

Edited April 1 by iacas
added middle paragraph

[tomdabomb]

People talking about setup which is right. I agree with plus with driver, you get into a very good downswing position before and at impact. More pressure on right heel at top, could get that backswing on plane a bit better but just picking here, look at Fitzpatrick... 

 

Missing right with irons would be because you are hitting right with your driver, but also then with irons, top ball strikers hit right with Driver, watch Aberg/McIlroy. Start feeling like you hit LEFT with your irons, like I say if you watch Aberg or McIlroy you will clearly see them hit it right with their driver, but then will hit down with their Irons, I love Aberg for this example. Try get your body going left and missing it low left would be a good thing. 

 

What is your shot shape? I would assume a draw? Feel like you're hitting a cut.

[Righty to Lefty]

I can't see the vids because I'm at work but without seeing them what is your ball flight look like? High with clubs being hit off a tee and low with everything being hit off the ground?  There is a reason I'm asking but I want to hear your answer first.  

[stevesteven1]

Cheers all. To answer shot shape I am low ball with everything and pretty neutral flight.

 

watched the latest amg vid always love their stuff. Correct me if I’m misunderstanding.

 

I need the ball further forward and my cog at the top more neutral not hanging back. Try to shorten arm swing. Stay in left side bend much longer on ds. 

[KD1]

9 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

the double overlap is new for me padraig tip for distance.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember Padraig saying he only does that with driver.

[stevesteven1]

14 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

I'm pretty sure I remember Padraig saying he only does that with driver.

he did but I couldn’t make it work changing grips every shot. Simpler to just do it with everything 

[KD1]

28 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

he did but I couldn’t make it work changing grips every shot. Simpler to just do it with everything 

In that case I'd wager he would say a standard grip would be the fallback.

[Chunkitgood]

It looks to me likely you have simply learned to hit the driver by hitting up on the ball, while with an iron you need to hit down on the ball.  You compensate by placing the ball back in your stance with irons.

 

Happens all the time.  I think McIlroy did it.  But you’re not McIlroy.

 

Learn to hit your irons first then go back and deal with the driver.  Heretical but forget about hitting up on it.

 

At any rate make sure you know what “left lean” means in different contexts and make sure you do the one you think you should be doing.

[stevesteven1]

20 hours ago, DFS PFD said:

 

[stevesteven1]

20 hours ago, DFS PFD said:

Fairway is a lot smaller target than the flag is. Odds are you're not as good with your woods as you think you are, you just have a much larger target. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB0Q2HbksvE?feature=shared

[Righty to Lefty]

13 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

Cheers all. To answer shot shape I am low ball with everything and pretty neutral flight.

 

watched the latest amg vid always love their stuff. Correct me if I’m misunderstanding.

 

I need the ball further forward and my cog at the top more neutral not hanging back. Try to shorten arm swing. Stay in left side bend much longer on ds. 

It depends, you need the ball to be where you can hit it with max leverage, and nothing else matters as there is no such thing as a "standard" ball position as we are all unique athletes. My advice would be to go to the back of a range mat with all your clubs that you hit off the ground prior to hitting them and pressure it at ground level and figure out where you have to position yourself to create the most pressure that you can for your current capability as if you were pressing the club into scale on it's side.  This will literally set everything for you, grip, stance, posture, distance from the ball and that is because there is only one spot that you will be able to create max force and everything else will be a weaker position. The back line of the range mat will be running in between your feet and you should be noting where the ball is positioned in relation to your feet and place the ball just behind that line.  This sets you up perfectly to have the opportunity to strike the ball just as you are creating maximum leverage that you are capable of.  You will also be able to see how each club is built different and so it will look like your ball position is moving from wedge to fairway wood but you are actually striking the ball at the exact same orientation to low point for every club being hit off the ground.   This is a video that I made about a different subject but I go over the method to pressure the shaft to find grip, stance, posture, etc. all in doing one task. I also go over how to do the same thing with club's being hit off a tee with a positive angle of attack because it is important to note that all club being hit of the ground are being hit from the same orientation to the ball, but clubs being hit off a tee are being hit at a different location along the swing arc depending on how high you tee the ball: 

 

 

The ball needs to be where you can hit it with max leverage and nothing else matters. That being said as you become more athletically capable you very well may need to move the ball to a different location but that will become obvious when you can create more force with the ball in a different location than you are used to.  Your ball flight will also begin to change because as you become more capable your will start to hit pushes in relation to the target line and as you become less capable you will begin to hit pulls in relation to your target line.  Let me know if you have any further questions and I'll be glad to clarify further. as this is the quick and dirty explanation of a deeper topic.  

 

[KD1]

R.I.P.

[Righty to Lefty]

50 minutes ago, KD1 said:

R.I.P.

How bout he put the ball to a place where he can't reach currently and lets see how fast he improves...I'll wait for the feedback on that one.  I love how swing advice is thrown around the forums with no real regard for the fact that we are all different athletes.  The common theme of comparing the swing motion of an amateur to that of a touring pro is not sound advice in any scenario. Do you think tour pros care about how another pro swings?  We all have our own unique swing DNA and not much is going to change that unless the athlete becomes more physically capable. Just saying " move the ball forward and put weight on your left heel" is in no way going to change anything and will actually make things worse and that is because he is not currently capable of getting to the spot so putting the ball there will create more faults as his body tries to do something that it is not currently capable of.  

 

Hey do the splits, like right now. Oh you aren't in the current physical condition to do the splits, so what do them anyway cause gymnasts do the splits all the time so you should just be able to do them if you want too.  If you do something that the body is not capable of at the moment you will hurt yourself.  A better method is to begin to do stretches and such that will eventually allow the body to do the splits in time if you have the physical capacity. This situation is no different, the first answer to any of these swing threads should be to install a physical fitness and stretching routine to try and recover as much range of motion and strength as possible. Over time the body will become more capable and the athlete's swing motion will evolve but just saying to move the ball to a different location and put weight on the heel is never going to lead to any lasting improvement.  

[iacas]

@stevesteven1, even if that block of words had merit, it is likely at best a band-aid.

 

Decent players who move the ball back eventually tilt more to the right to get the ball back up in the air, leading to a vicious cycle. Virtually zero players on the PGA Tour play stock iron shots back of center or even at center.

 

Assuming the idea of “leverage” had any merit at all, the point is to create that “leverage” in the right spot, not just put the ball where you’re able to create what is currently your maximum “leverage,” as that is less than you will be able to achieve with less consistency with better mechanics.

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

It depends, you need the ball to be where you can hit it with max leverage, and nothing else matters as there is no such thing as a "standard" ball position as we are all unique athletes. My advice would be to go to the back of a range mat with all your clubs that you hit off the ground prior to hitting them and pressure it at ground level and figure out where you have to position yourself to create the most pressure that you can for your current capability as if you were pressing the club into scale on it's side.  This will literally set everything for you, grip, stance, posture, distance from the ball and that is because there is only one spot that you will be able to create max force and everything else will be a weaker position. The back line of the range mat will be running in between your feet and you should be noting where the ball is positioned in relation to your feet and place the ball just behind that line.  This sets you up perfectly to have the opportunity to strike the ball just as you are creating maximum leverage that you are capable of.  You will also be able to see how each club is built different and so it will look like your ball position is moving from wedge to fairway wood but you are actually striking the ball at the exact same orientation to low point for every club being hit off the ground.   This is a video that I made about a different subject but I go over the method to pressure the shaft to find grip, stance, posture, etc. all in doing one task. I also go over how to do the same thing with club's being hit off a tee with a positive angle of attack because it is important to note that all club being hit of the ground are being hit from the same orientation to the ball, but clubs being hit off a tee are being hit at a different location along the swing arc depending on how high you tee the ball: 

 

 

The ball needs to be where you can hit it with max leverage and nothing else matters. That being said as you become more athletically capable you very well may need to move the ball to a different location but that will become obvious when you can create more force with the ball in a different location than you are used to.  Your ball flight will also begin to change because as you become more capable your will start to hit pushes in relation to the target line and as you become less capable you will begin to hit pulls in relation to your target line.  Let me know if you have any further questions and I'll be glad to clarify further. as this is the quick and dirty explanation of a deeper topic.  

 

if you're attempting to find the max leverage point with this method...your club is going to be hitting your crotch as you swing or you are going to have the ball a foot behind your back foot.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

if you're attempting to find the max leverage point with this method...your club is going to be hitting your crotch as you swing or you are going to have the ball a foot behind your back foot.

I’ve found there is typically very little value in doing something statically which is achieved dynamically.
 

That’s a poor impact position, and your intent matters very little when wrist angles are changing, forces are pulling your body in ways regardless of that intent, etc.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

if you're attempting to find the max leverage point with this method...your club is going to be hitting your crotch as you swing or you are going to have the ball a foot behind your back foot.

Not true...if the club gets too close to you it is weaker, and conversely if it gets too far away from you it will also be weaker.  You will quickly realize this if you go out and try it.  The ball should be placed just behind that line of compression and I assure you that you will begin to understand and be taught what impact is supposed to feel like.  If the ball is put anywhere else your strike purity will be compromised.  These same adjustments must be made even as you fatigue during a given round of golf to maintain lag pressure because if not you will become increasingly more out of position to the ball and your strike and face control will suffer and you round will go off the rails.  

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Not true...if the club gets too close to you it is weaker, and conversely if it gets too far away from you it will also be weaker.  You will quickly realize this if you go out and try it.  The ball should be placed just behind that line of compression and I assure you that you will begin to understand and be taught what impact is supposed to feel like.  If the ball is put anywhere else your strike purity will be compromised.  These same adjustments must be made even as you fatigue during a given round of golf to maintain lag pressure because if not you will become increasingly more out of position to the ball and your strike and face control will suffer and you round will go off the rails.  

How do you account for the fact that almost no Tour player has the ball as far back as you would have it?

 

The body is not in that static, “back” position at impact. The chest is open, typically, which puts the hands forward. The weight is also forward, which also moves low point forward.
 

Which is why that’s essentially the advice he got from several people.

[SNIPERBBB]

18 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Not true...if the club gets too close to you it is weaker, and conversely if it gets too far away from you it will also be weaker.  You will quickly realize this if you go out and try it.  The ball should be placed just behind that line of compression and I assure you that you will begin to understand and be taught what impact is supposed to feel like.  If the ball is put anywhere else your strike purity will be compromised.  These same adjustments must be made even as you fatigue during a given round of golf to maintain lag pressure because if not you will become increasingly more out of position to the ball and your strike and face control will suffer and you round will go off the rails.  

Pressure increases as you move the  club closer to you or further behind without manipulation to not increase pressure.  The straighter you make something the stronger your lever will be in a static environment 

[Righty to Lefty]

Once again the second that you compare amateur athletes to professional ones you have failed.  Understanding where you need to place yourself in relation to the ball is orders of magnitude more important than just looking at someone's ball position and telling them to move it because the best golfers on the planet have it there, and if you copy what they do then you will hit it like they do and it is completely ridiculous. If you can't speak on leverage in a golf swing, and believe it doesn't exist, then we are done here as far as my interaction with you.  I will leave it to the OP to go figure out for themselves and report back.  

 

Everything you mention as a "fix" is handled in my one suggestion.  Can you hang back and apply maximum force against the range mat as I suggested, no you cannot not.  There is nothing static about pressuring the back of the range mat or a door frame, the mat or door frame just won't let you move but your intention is to move.  Anything that you do statically should be in an effort to get into the very position that pressuring the range mat reveals and also noting how it looks different for each club and learning to accept it and not try and manipulate the club. 

 

I know you know somebody in the Kansas City area...I'll meet up with them and work with them and they can report back. They can video the whole session whether on course or on the range...whatever you prefer.  

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

Please for the love of all that is holy, do not let this thread become derailed with unnecessary essays that'll only melt the OP's brain.