When to give up on swinging in to out, and play a fade

[mc2]

6ish handicap, playing for 4.5 years, had about 7-8 lessons over the last couple of years with one coach.

 

When I started the lessons I was very out to in, and over the couple of years I've worked that back to just being slightly out to in or neutral-ish.

 

Everything my coach has got me doing is revolved around moving my path to out to in. I can do it instantly in the lessons, and I've gone through phases of really trying to grind that path in with repetitive practice and range sessions (in bursts, not continually), but I can never make it stick.

 

I just don't feel quite comfortable trying to hit a draw on the course. Fade feels natural but these days my face is closed or square to path, and I tend to hit a pull or pull draw and I've kinda lost that face to path relationship that at one stage had me playing a pretty consistent fade. Now my miss is a hook or big pull draw.
 

I go out on the course now and I just don't know which way the ball is gonna go. Set up for a draw, hit a push fade. Set up for a fade, double cross it. Set up straight, starts straight but could curve either way from there.

 

Anyone been here and got any advice or ideas?

 

Keep the path left and weaken the grip to hit a fade?

 

Keep grinding on the draw shape and I'll eventually make it stick?

 

Try a new coach for a second opinion?

[golferdude54]

You mentioned "set up for a draw, hit a push fade" Why not just change the intention and don't change anything else? Instead of intending to hit a draw from that same set-up, hit the push fade on purpose. Then your brain won't get all crossed up and you won't go so far down a rabbit hole.

[mc2]

11 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

You mentioned "set up for a draw, hit a push fade" Why not just change the intention and don't change anything else? Instead of intending to hit a draw from that same set-up, hit the push fade on purpose. Then your brain won't get all crossed up and you won't go so far down a rabbit hole.

I like the idea of changing intention.

 

The push fade tends to come out when I'm aiming right but. If I aimed left to accomodate, I'd more than likely pull it instead.

I can see it's all in my head, but what's the best way forward?

 

 

 

[Nickb333]

Has your current instructor mentioned eye line? 

[TheDeanAbides]

If you’re neutral to slightly out to in and that’s playable why not stop there and work on other areas of your game?

[mc2]

1 hour ago, Nickb333 said:

Has your current instructor mentioned eye line? 

no, tell me more!

[mc2]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

If you’re neutral to slightly out to in and that’s playable why not stop there and work on other areas of your game?

I hear what you're saying, but my current iron game is not quite playable. 
 

I feel like I'm stuck with a left path, but a closed face.
 

And I'm always chopping and changing between trying to hit draws or fades. 
 

Should I work on opening face to path and playing fade? Or leave the face as is and keep trying to push the path out to the right? 
 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, mc2 said:

I hear what you're saying, but my current iron game is not quite playable. 
 

I feel like I'm stuck with a left path, but a closed face.
 

And I'm always chopping and changing between trying to hit draws or fades. 
 

Should I work on opening face to path and playing fade? Or leave the face as is and keep trying to push the path out to the right? 
 

 

I’m always a bit confused when someone is seeing a pro and asking advice from people who haven’t seen your swing. Is there a reason you don’t trust your pro? Is it because they’re insisting on you developing an in to out path and you’re not feeling that? 
 

What does your pro say about these questions? 

[mc2]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I’m always a bit confused when someone is seeing a pro and asking advice from people who haven’t seen your swing. Is there a reason you don’t trust your pro? Is it because they’re insisting on you developing an in to out path and you’re not feeling that? 
 

What does your pro say about these questions? 

My last lesson I told him basically everything I said here, and he insisted I push forward with the draw path, and yeah I'm wondering how long I'm supposed to persist, when I still can't get a draw to feel normal after over 2 years of trying.

 

Was wondering if anyone had been in a similar situation and what ideas/fixes/etc they used to get out of it!

[TheDeanAbides]

25 minutes ago, mc2 said:

My last lesson I told him basically everything I said here, and he insisted I push forward with the draw path, and yeah I'm wondering how long I'm supposed to persist, when I still can't get a draw to feel normal after over 2 years of trying.

 

Was wondering if anyone had been in a similar situation and what ideas/fixes/etc they used to get out of it!

Are you committed to the change? That’s the only thing that matters. I still haven’t heard why your teacher is insisting on pushing forward. Is this an agreement that you have to play a draw? What’s the rationale? 

[mc2]

42 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Are you committed to the change? That’s the only thing that matters. I still haven’t heard why your teacher is insisting on pushing forward. Is this an agreement that you have to play a draw? What’s the rationale? 

No in all honesty I'm not committed any more because I just can't seem to ingrain it. Path just always creeps back to the left. Is the left path simply what my body/brain thinks is normal? Is it worth fighting against it?

 

I could commit if I knew I would actually be able to get there in the long term, however I'd also have no problem just playing a fade, but I'd also need to work to get back to more of a playable fade. So need to work either way, and that's where I'm stuck. 
 

The coach says draws are better, higher, longer, etc. That's the rationale he has given me. I'm not a big hitter, so I'm guessing he's trying to improve my distance as much as possible 

[iacas]

What’s your typical path when you set up straight? How far left is it?

 

I agree that this is more a conversation to be had, in earnest, with your instructor. If your path is more than 4° left though I’d seriously consider continuing to push, just tell him you feel you need to focus on face control the next time.

 

Maybe he’s a bad instructor. But you have to give him a chance to fully understand what you’re seeing (I didn’t fully love his reasons why you have to hit a draw).

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, mc2 said:

No in all honesty I'm not committed any more because I just can't seem to ingrain it. Path just always creeps back to the left. Is the left path simply what my body/brain thinks is normal? Is it worth fighting against it?

 

I could commit if I knew I would actually be able to get there in the long term, however I'd also have no problem just playing a fade, but I'd also need to work to get back to more of a playable fade. So need to work either way, and that's where I'm stuck. 
 

The coach says draws are better, higher, longer, etc. That's the rationale he has given me. I'm not a big hitter, so I'm guessing he's trying to improve my distance as much as possible 

The last paragraph - if that’s what he said - makes me think that you need a new coach. There is zero reason why a draw is better. There’s also no correlation between shape and distance if the swing is functional. 
 

I’m all for trusting a good pro, but there are lots of bad ones out there too. 
 

You shouldn’t be chasing shot shapes - it’s far more productive to create a functional and repeatable swing that’s easy to manage. Teaching one shape as “better” is poor teaching. 
 

I’d be really interested to see your swing. 

Edited April 20 by TheDeanAbides

[mc2]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The last paragraph - if that’s what he said - makes me think that you need a new coach. There is zero reason why a draw is better. There’s also no correlation between shape and distance if the swing is functional. 
 

I’m all for trusting a good pro, but there are lots of bad ones out there too. 
 

You shouldn’t be chasing shot shapes - it’s far more productive to create a functional a repeatable swing that’s easy to manage. Teaching one shape as “better” is poor teaching. 
 

I’d be really interested to see your swing. 

I'll get to the range and record some videos soon 👍🏻

[Nickb333]

4 hours ago, mc2 said:

no, tell me more!

 

[ChaosTheory]

As a reformed slicer, it never feels good to aim right and start the ball right.  As a result, I’ve never been able to commit to a draw.  I can hit them, especially with some practice.  But there are no penalty areas on the range.

 

If you are slightly out to in, then adjust your grip to hit a small fade, and get on with life.  I’d break up with the instructor over creative differences.

[phizzy30]

The hardest swing change is changing swing path, IMO.  I wouldn't want my swing coach trying to teach me the opposite swing path of what I naturally play.  It's a double edged sword.  It can work sometimes like in the case with DJ or can backfire like it did for Martin Kaymer who did great playing a fade then decided he wanted to learn to play the draw which pretty much killed his career.  The duck hook is a horrible miss to play with whereas a hard cut is at the very least playable.  If you truly want to go the opposite swing path, I would advise you to set aside enough time to put in the work because it takes a long time to get it right.  But in the end, it's really up to you how you want to proceed. 

Edited April 20 by phizzy30

[iacas]

7 hours ago, mc2 said:

I'll get to the range and record some videos soon 👍🏻

 

The videos will help, but you should get some launch monitor (path in particular) data too. It'll let us all know if you're actually hitting draws the right way.

 

Maybe this isn't you, but as part of my initial questions, I'll ask students what type of shot they hit. Some will say "oh, I hit draws." Well, it turns out, they align right and hit pull-draws. Their path is left, and they shut the face to that… they're not hitting draws "the right way."

 

Maybe you're swinging out 2 or 3°. Maybe you're over-doing it. Maybe (video will help show us), you're swinging out, but you're doing so the wrong way by tipping back or EEing. Or maybe you're still swinging left but on the course you align right and hit a pull-draw.

[mc2]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

What’s your typical path when you set up straight? How far left is it?

 

I agree that this is more a conversation to be had, in earnest, with your instructor. If your path is more than 4° left though I’d seriously consider continuing to push, just tell him you feel you need to focus on face control the next time.

 

Maybe he’s a bad instructor. But you have to give him a chance to fully understand what you’re seeing (I didn’t fully love his reasons why you have to hit a draw).

I just went in a sim bay a couple of days ago to get some gapping numbers on my irons. I was just setting up straight and not thinking about my path, just looking at distances only. The path for my irons was sitting around 1.3-3.2 left, and face angle sitting around 3.9-4.5 . I'm not sure I can completely trust these numbers as this sim bay seems to not register a lot of path readings, but those numbers do support what I see on the course, of generally swinging left but going further left.

I just also checked a trackman session from January when I was playing some really good golf, and my path was the same but the face was open to path. I had a lesson in between then and now, where coach had me working on moving path again, so it may have messed something up with my face angle.

 

When I first starting seeing him, I can't remember exactly the numbers but I was way left, probably 10 degrees or more and I was terrible at golf, so his work getting me close to centre has done wonders for my game, but now maybe it's time to accept that I should just play a fade, but always go back to the same drills again if I start getting too far left, rather than continuing to push to hit a draw.

 

[ChaosTheory]

You could also tell the teacher, “I’ve hit my limit on the path, so can you help me hit a fade?”  
 

I was too harsh earlier saying to break up.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, mc2 said:

I just went in a sim bay a couple of days ago to get some gapping numbers on my irons. I was just setting up straight and not thinking about my path, just looking at distances only. The path for my irons was sitting around 1.3-3.2 left, and face angle sitting around 3.9-4.5 . I'm not sure I can completely trust these numbers as this sim bay seems to not register a lot of path readings, but those numbers do support what I see on the course, of generally swinging left but going further left.

I just also checked a trackman session from January when I was playing some really good golf, and my path was the same but the face was open to path. I had a lesson in between then and now, where coach had me working on moving path again, so it may have messed something up with my face angle.

 

When I first starting seeing him, I can't remember exactly the numbers but I was way left, probably 10 degrees or more and I was terrible at golf, so his work getting me close to centre has done wonders for my game, but now maybe it's time to accept that I should just play a fade, but always go back to the same drills again if I start getting too far left, rather than continuing to push to hit a draw.

 

1.3 to 3.2°, assuming that's accurate, is perfectly fine. Go with the fade, assuming that the video doesn't reveal a major issue.

[Chunkitgood]

I was taught years ago that the ball should essentially be struck while traveling away from the golfer, that is (1) before it bottoms out and (2) before it reaches maximum extension towards the target line if the player is set up square to it.  Further, that good players hit a fade by aligning their body in such a way that these conditions are met but the club is open to the path.  Moreover, a proper swing will tend to produce both (1) and (2).  Poor golfers “fade” by having the club farther from the body towards the target line before impact, and the face open. If it is square they pull and if closed the pull hook.

 

One of the things that I saw when I first started looking at this forum is low handicappers saying their teacher is telling them they need major changes to achieve their goals, usually to become scratch.

 

If I were you I would investigate for myself whether a swing that produces and out to in path is required for optimum performance not only in terms of ball flight but also in terms of margin of error and power production.  I think you will find that it is, I could be wrong, but the process should help you clarify your goals.

 

It also seems to me that 7 or 8 lessons over a couple of years is not giving your teacher much of a chance.

[Haroputt]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:54 PM, mc2 said:

6ish handicap, playing for 4.5 years, had about 7-8 lessons over the last couple of years with one coach.

 

When I started the lessons I was very out to in, and over the couple of years I've worked that back to just being slightly out to in or neutral-ish.

 

Everything my coach has got me doing is revolved around moving my path to out to in. I can do it instantly in the lessons, and I've gone through phases of really trying to grind that path in with repetitive practice and range sessions (in bursts, not continually), but I can never make it stick.

 

I just don't feel quite comfortable trying to hit a draw on the course. Fade feels natural but these days my face is closed or square to path, and I tend to hit a pull or pull draw and I've kinda lost that face to path relationship that at one stage had me playing a pretty consistent fade. Now my miss is a hook or big pull draw.
 

I go out on the course now and I just don't know which way the ball is gonna go. Set up for a draw, hit a push fade. Set up for a fade, double cross it. Set up straight, starts straight but could curve either way from there.

 

Anyone been here and got any advice or ideas?

 

Keep the path left and weaken the grip to hit a fade?

 

Keep grinding on the draw shape and I'll eventually make it stick?

 

Try a new coach for a second opinion?

Yea. Same as you fade predominantly and teacher got me to hit in to out   Never really could do on the course but able to at the driving range.  Took me years but I prefer the draw especially with my irons.  One ah-ha moment is setting up left to my target pre shot routine. 
In soccer when I want to bend to left I setup left (like a corner kick in soccer) 

of I want fade I set up more to the right and walk straight up to the ball from behind the ball rather than from side 

[gvogel]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:06 AM, golferdude54 said:

You mentioned "set up for a draw, hit a push fade" Why not just change the intention and don't change anything else? Instead of intending to hit a draw from that same set-up, hit the push fade on purpose. Then your brain won't get all crossed up and you won't go so far down a rabbit hole.

I like that idea.  Set up for a draw, but aim a bit left.  then, get the feeling of hitting from the inside out, and leave the face open at impact.  In other words, aim left and don't release completely through impact.  Sort of a partial release.  The club won't catch up to the hands until a bit later in the follow through.

 

Or you could fully release the club, but with a weak grip (which would leave the face slightly open at impact).