Scottie & Tiger Comparisons

[Golfnutgalen]

  

2 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

I do remember Tiger's approach play being insanely good. That was probably his biggest advantage over the rest of them. Scottie's right now at 1.347 for approach. That's ridiculously good and quite probably hasn't been bettered by anyone not named Tiger. (I stand corrected - Adam Scott in 2016 was 1.491). Tiger's was better in 2013, 2009, 2007, and 2006 (it was 2.072 that year). I suspect that 2002, 2000, and 1999 would have been better too if strokes gained was tracked then. 2000 it must have been off the charts. 

 

Scottie is undoubtedly having an incredibly strong period of play. It will be very interesting to see how he keeps that going over the next few years. If he can maintain it (child will make that more difficult), then good for him and good for us. 

 

With strokes gained I'm going to say something that is usually left unsaid. If you hit the ball worse of the tee it means you have more potential to gain strokes from there. Basically, if you hit the ball too good off the tee you can't gain as many strokes on approach shots. I don't think Tiger gained as many shots on approach shots in those early years for that factor alone and we know his total strokes gained wasn't better back then with the exception of 2000. That makes sense right? We know he was a better driver of the ball back then which means he has fewer strokes to gain on approach shots, assuming his short game and putting is similar. 

 

Looking at SG Tiger had 3 exceptional years: 2000, 2006, and 2007. (they only measured 5 events in 2008 which is too small a sample size). Obviously all of Tiger's career is exceptional but these stand out. 

 

Here are Tiger's strokes gained total figures during his prime (per datagolf):

 

1996: +1.57

1997: +2.52

1998: +2.41

1999: +3.39

2000: +4.29

2001: +2.87

2002: +3.35

2003: +3.04

2004: +2.77

2005: +2.82

2006: +3.68

2007: +3.75

2008: +3.92

2009: +3.46

2012: +2.68

2013: +2.56

Edited April 22 by Golfnutgalen

[stinger_gc]

1 hour ago, kiawah said:

I know Tiger is the gold standard. I know Scottie is playing some absolutely fantastic golf. I know it's human nature to want to compare things.

But Scottie has a long way to go before this comparison holds water. Is this stretch of golf Tiger-esque? Yes. In a few majors we can have this conversation. Until (more like IF) Scottie catches Brooks and/or Rory, he does not deserve Tiger comparisons. 

 

Also, I'm NOT a LIV homer. I think Talor Gooch is a clown. But there is truth to the idea that Scottie might have lost a couple of events if Brooks, Rahm, DJ, and co. were in the field week-to-week. Not trying to minimize Scottie's great run, but I think it could look different. Just food for thought.

Disagree. Those guys were on tour in 2022 when Scottie started this run and he just beat them at the Masters.

Edited April 22 by stinger_gc

[RobS]

As far as any LIV * goes, I don't put much stock in it under actual circumstances.  It's not so much that he's won 4 out of 5, including a major, it's the quality of golf that he's playing while doing it.  It's a little early to start throwing out all time comparisons but as Sahith said this weekend, "we could be in the midst of something really, really special".

[FootWedge16]

23 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

44 year old back fused, no knee, Tiger disagrees 🤣

 

 

My statement wasn't taking anything away from Tiger. I think he's the greatest player ever and it isn't even close. 

However, I also don't think LIV matters at all when talking about PGA tour wins over the last couple years. 

[redfirebird08]

13 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

  

 

 

With strokes gained I'm going to say something that is usually left unsaid. If you hit the ball worse of the tee it means you have more potential to gain strokes from there. Basically, if you hit the ball too good off the tee you can't gain as many strokes on approach shots. I don't think Tiger gained as many shots on approach shots in those early years for that factor alone and we know his total strokes gained wasn't better back then with the exception of 2000. That makes sense right? We know he was a better driver of the ball back then which means he has fewer strokes to gain on approach shots, assuming his short game and putting is similar. 

 

Looking at SG Tiger had 3 exceptional years: 2000, 2006, and 2007. (they only measured 5 events in 2008 which is too small a sample size). 

 

Here are Tiger's strokes gained total figures during his prime (per datagolf):

 

1996: +1.57

1997: +2.52

1998: +2.41

1999: +3.39

2000: +4.29

2001: +2.87

2002: +3.35

2003: +3.04

2004: +2.77

2005: +2.82

2006: +3.68

2007: +3.75

2008: +3.92

2009: +3.46

2012: +2.68

2013: +2.56

That 2004 number is really impressive considering Tiger was in the middle of a radical swing change. I remember his old coach Butch Harmon went on TV during the 2004 U.S. Open and said Tiger was completely lost with his game at the time. The strokes gained stat you listed is pretty damn good in those circumstances. Lol

[Ferguson]

49 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Tiger has one “T” in his first name. 

And +80 wins.  Scheffler won't sniff that mark.  

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, FootWedge16 said:

 

Today's fields are light years more talented than late 90s early 2000s fields, with or without LIV defectors. 

 

If they are so talented then why has only one guy been dominant?  

 

[Golfnutgalen]

5 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

That 2004 number is really impressive considering Tiger was in the middle of a radical swing change. I remember his old coach Butch Harmon went on TV during the 2004 U.S. Open and said Tiger was completely lost with his game at the time. The strokes gained stat you listed is pretty damn good in those circumstances. Lol

 

I know!

 

It's so weird looking back and realizing Tiger was still the best player in the world that season in terms of his scoring. Vijay even with his 9 wins wasn't as consistent.

 

Scottie's updated 2024 number is +3.45. Disgusting.

Edited April 22 by Golfnutgalen

[ac6]

Just now, Ferguson said:

 

If they are so talented then why has only one guy been dominant?  

 

 

What? Nobody is dominant because there is a lot of talent. Read that again

 

18 minutes ago, stinger_gc said:

Disagree. Those guys were on tour in 2022 when Scottie started this run and he just beat them at the Masters.

 

Rahm and Brooks are a maybe to me but just in the majors. I'd maybe include Bryson instead of DJ in that group now. DJ was dominant, but to me he clearly doesn't have the fire anymore. I honestly don't blame him.

 

But overall I agree with you. The Tour still has lots of guys who are playing well and have awesome resumes including several multiple major champs. Scottie is still beating the pants off all of em right now

 

[bscinstnct]

There’s one thing that’s not mentioned enough. 
 

Tiger was actually a very accurate driver with the Titleist/43” steel shaft. He was also right at the top in distance.
 

But when everyone went titanium/graphite, everyone started bombing it. TW was getting left behind. 
 
Phil even mocked TWs equipment!

 

Tiger then embarked on this whole swing change, which Butch thought made no sense when he could’ve just started using the new driver set up. 
 

and then after he started making the switch change, he started to adopt the new drivers. 

 

Overall the adjustment was horrendous and TW never really adjusted perfectly to be as comfortable as with the Titleist

 

But can you imagine if TW “grew up” playing the modern driver/shaft set up and played now. 
 

He’d win like 30 majors 🤣

Edited April 22 by bscinstnct

[nepatriotsfan]

If my math is correct Tiger had 32 wins and 7 majors by the time he was 27. Scottie has 10 wins and 2 majors at the same age. Scottie is playing great but it is way to early to compare him to Tiger IMO.

[kiawah]

33 minutes ago, stinger_gc said:

Disagree. Those guys were on tour in 2022 when Scottie started this run and he just beat them at the Masters.

I am aware, but surely his odds of winning week to week go down if his closest competitors go from Xander and Clark to Rahm, Brooks, DJ. Just because he beat them this time doesn't mean one of them wouldn't beat him if they were playing head to head for the past few months. Not saying all the results change, but willing to bet someone like Rahm could have won one of the events Scottie did. We will never know, though. 

[redfirebird08]

16 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

There’s one thing that’s not mentioned enough. 
 

Tiger was actually a very accurate driver with the Titleist/43” steel shaft. He was also right at the top in distance.
 

But when everyone went titanium/graphite, everyone started bombing it. TW was getting left behind. 
 
Phil even mocked TWs equipment!

 

Tiger then embarked on this whole swing change, which Butch thought made no sense when he could’ve just started using the new driver set up. 
 

and then after he started making the switch change, he started to adopt the new drivers. 

 

Overall the adjustment was horrendous and TW never really adjusted perfectly to be as comfortable as with the Titleist

 

But can you imagine if TW “grew up” playing the modern driver/shaft set up and played now. 
 

He’d win like 30 majors 🤣

 

 

Tiger sabotaged himself in a million ways. Sabotaged himself with swing changes through the years. Obviously sabotaged himself with the recent car accident. Obviously sabotaged himself with the adultery scandal. If Tiger was not a crazy workout guy in his 20's and 30's, he would not have ruined his back & knees. Look at Mickelson, who was a fat slob in his 30's. But Phil didn't mess up his knees & back with Navy SEAL training and running a billion miles like Woods did. 

 

That being said, Tiger still achieved probably around 60-70% of his full potential. John Daly is a much bigger waste of talent. Dude should have won 10+ majors and 50+ Tour events. Instead he has 6 wins combined on the PGA Tour & Euro Tour, including 2 majors. Daly achieved probably less than 20% of his full potential. Obviously we know Daly is the ultimate example of self-sabotage. He didn't practice. He played while drunk or high on drugs. He literally rolled out of bed hungover and won 2 majors on raw talent, lol

 

Hell...Rory McIlroy has been a disappointment as well. And he has never sabotaged himself in the manner Daly or Tiger did. McIlroy's golf swing is still pretty much the same at age 35 as it was at age 20. He has avoided the injury problems. He's avoiding the car accidents & marriage problems as well. Other than Jack & Tiger, McIlroy is the only dude to win 4 majors by age 25...and he's been stuck on 4 majors for 10 years during the absolute prime of his career. Pretty big waste of talent. 

Edited April 22 by redfirebird08

[Golfnutgalen]

Just now, nepatriotsfan said:

If my math is correct Tiger had 32 wins and 7 majors by the time he was 27. Scottie has 10 wins and 2 majors at the same age. Scottie is playing great but it is way to early to compare him to Tiger IMO.

 

Scottie will be 28 in 2 months. 

 

Tiger won 39 times by then including 8 majors. A couple months after his 28th birthday he made it to 40 and then had a dry spell.

[ac6]

12 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

There’s one thing that’s not mentioned enough. 
 

Tiger was actually a very accurate driver with the Titleist/43” steel shaft. He was also right at the top in distance.
 

But when everyone went titanium/graphite, everyone started bombing it. TW was getting left behind. 
 
Phil even mocked TWs equipment!

 

Tiger then embarked on this whole swing change, which Butch thought made no sense when he could’ve just started using the new driver set up. 
 

and then after he started making the switch change, he started to adopt the new drivers. 

 

Overall the adjustment was horrendous and TW never really adjusted perfectly to be as comfortable as with the Titleist

 

But can you imagine if TW “grew up” playing the modern driver/shaft set up and played now. 
 

He’d win like 30 majors 🤣

 

100% agree with this. I'm sure he liked to see the old-school low-launch rising trajectory and probably struggled (as much as Tiger 'struggles' with the game) to adapt to the high launch low spin window. Young Tiger was swinging his 43" X100 driver at 125+ MPH regularly. Give that guy a modern driver and modern knowledge and he's not only the best iron player and putter but he is bombing it at north of 190mph ball speed every time

[redfirebird08]

5 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

Scottie will be 28 in 2 months. 

 

Tiger won 39 times by then including 8 majors. A couple months after his 28th birthday he made it to 40 and then had a dry spell.

 

He also had 5 regular wins on the Euro Tour from January 1998 to May 2002. I lump in PGA Tour & Euro Tour together, since that is how the Hall of Fame does it when figuring out if the borderline guys are good enough to be voted in. So you're looking at 44 wins on the two major tours, including 8 majors by the time he turned 28 in December 2003. 

[3whacker]

6 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

 

Tiger sabotaged himself in a million ways. Sabotaged himself with swing changes through the years. Obviously sabotaged himself with the recent car accident. Obviously sabotaged himself with the adultery scandal. If Tiger was not a crazy workout guy in his 20's and 30's, he would not have ruined his back & knees. Look at Mickelson, who was a fat slob in his 30's. But Phil didn't mess up his knees & back with Navy SEAL training and running a billion miles like Woods did. 

 

That being said, Tiger still achieved probably around 60-70% of his full potential. John Daly is a much bigger waste of talent. Dude should have won 10+ majors and 50+ Tour events. Instead he has 6 wins combined on the PGA Tour & Euro Tour, including 2 majors. Daly achieved probably less than 20% of his full potential. 

 

Hell...Rory McIlroy has been a disappointment as well. And he has never sabotaged himself in the manner Tiger did. McIlroy's golf swing is still pretty much the same at age 35 as it was at age 20. He has avoided the injury problems. He's avoiding the car accidents & marriage problems as well. Other than Jack & Tiger, McIlroy is the only dude to win 4 majors by age 25...and he's been stuck on 4 majors for 10 years during the absolute prime of his career. Pretty big waste of talent. 

I dont think they all wasted their talent but they squandered their prime athletic years, Daly is just a hot mess, but TW wasted his prime years because of a reckless lifestyle and transforming his body in the wrong way, it might have worked for Barry Bonds but he didnt need to get all yoked up, If Phil had transformed his body like it is now, there is no telling what it could have done for his career, it may not have changed his course management, but certainly could have completed the slam.....I hope that Miles Russell, Ashkay and even Aberg  learn from all these guys mistakes

 

the biggest WASTE of talent is no doubt AK

[redfirebird08]

3 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

I dont think they all wasted their talent but they squandered their prime athletic years, Daly is just a hot mess, but TW wasted his prime years because of a reckless lifestyle and transforming his body in the wrong way, it might have worked for Barry Bonds but he didnt need to get all yoked up, If Phil had transformed his body like it is now, there is no telling what it could have done for his career, it may not have changed his course management, but certainly could have completed the slam.....I hope that Miles Russell, Ashkay and even Aberg  learn from all these guys mistakes

 

the biggest WASTE of talent is no doubt AK

 

Anthony Kim is a pretty good example of wasting talent. But I think John Daly is at the top of the list. That guy was outdriving everyone by 40+ yards and he had a short game touch fairly similar to guys like Ballesteros, Mickelson, Woods, or (right now) Scheffler/Spieth. With his physical gifts, I think Daly could have a Tiger-esque career. I don't think Anthony Kim had the same extreme level of talent like John Daly. 

[stinger_gc]

8 minutes ago, ac6 said:

 

What? Nobody is dominant because there is a lot of talent. Read that again

 

 

Rahm and Brooks are a maybe to me but just in the majors. I'd maybe include Bryson instead of DJ in that group now. DJ was dominant, but to me he clearly doesn't have the fire anymore. I honestly don't blame him.

 

But overall I agree with you. The Tour still has lots of guys who are playing well and have awesome resumes including several multiple major champs. Scottie is still beating the pants off all of em right now

 

Exactly. 

[EagleAteBirdie]

I was slated for suggesting SS compared more to Nicklaus than TW.  For those throwing their toys out of the pram, these are comparisons of recent form, not entire careers. 

[Golfnutgalen]

13 minutes ago, EagleAteBirdie said:

I was slated for suggesting SS compared more to Nicklaus than TW.  For those throwing their toys out of the pram, these are comparisons of recent form, not entire careers. 

 

Understandable considering Scottie's accuracy off the tee and iron game.

 

I think the most obvious comparison to Scottie is Johnny Miller. There are legendary stories about his ball striking and he was a mediocre putter for his entire career. 

 

That's not me predicting a Miller like career, just their game in general. 

Edited April 22 by Golfnutgalen

[redfirebird08]

1 minute ago, EagleAteBirdie said:

I was slated for suggesting SS compared more to Nicklaus than TW.  For those throwing their toys out of the pram, these are comparisons of recent form, not entire careers. 

 

The thing I am curious about with Scheffler is fatherhood. His chipping game and iron game are incredibly sharp right now. Will he be spending the same amount of time practicing those shots after he has parental duties? If you spend 6-8 hours per day instead of 12-14 hours per day practicing these precision shots, how much does this impact the sharpness in your chipping or distance control on the iron shots?

 

Nicklaus had his first child at age 21, so he was already dealing with the parental stuff at a very young age. It's VERY impressive that Jack was able to manage this and perform so well in his golf career. Nicklaus also had more financial incentive to keep pushing his golf game compared to modern players. The payouts in golf were a joke back in the 1960's and 1970's. If you wanted to make a good living, you had to win a lot. In the 2020's, you can make an extremely good living and win jack squat. Scheffler has already won enough money to get very lazy with his golf game if he wants. Hell, he could take a massive payout from LIV Golf and relax the rest of his career if he wants. 

 

It would not take much slippage in Scheffler's game to turn some wins into 2nd or 3rd place finishes. I think about his chipping in particular. He holes them a lot or gets super close for easy tap-ins. If those awesome chip shots suddenly turn into 5-7 foot putts, it becomes a lot harder for him to post some of the scores he has been posting. I think his short game is a VERY underrated aspect of his game. Nicklaus by comparison was never great with the short game. 

[stinger_gc]

47 minutes ago, kiawah said:

I am aware, but surely his odds of winning week to week go down if his closest competitors go from Xander and Clark to Rahm, Brooks, DJ. Just because he beat them this time doesn't mean one of them wouldn't beat him if they were playing head to head for the past few months. Not saying all the results change, but willing to bet someone like Rahm could have won one of the events Scottie did. We will never know, though. 

He was beating them in 2022 as well though. Outside of Brooks, no one from LIV has consistently contended in majors since joining. (A lot of these guys have play 5-6 majors which is a decent sample size)

Edited April 22 by stinger_gc

[peadar]

1 hour ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

 

Tiger sabotaged himself in a million ways. Sabotaged himself with swing changes through the years. Obviously sabotaged himself with the recent car accident. Obviously sabotaged himself with the adultery scandal. If Tiger was not a crazy workout guy in his 20's and 30's, he would not have ruined his back & knees. Look at Mickelson, who was a fat slob in his 30's. But Phil didn't mess up his knees & back with Navy SEAL training and running a billion miles like Woods did. 

 

That being said, Tiger still achieved probably around 60-70% of his full potential. John Daly is a much bigger waste of talent. Dude should have won 10+ majors and 50+ Tour events. Instead he has 6 wins combined on the PGA Tour & Euro Tour, including 2 majors. Daly achieved probably less than 20% of his full potential. Obviously we know Daly is the ultimate example of self-sabotage. He didn't practice. He played while drunk or high on drugs. He literally rolled out of bed hungover and won 2 majors on raw talent, lol

 

Hell...Rory McIlroy has been a disappointment as well. And he has never sabotaged himself in the manner Daly or Tiger did. McIlroy's golf swing is still pretty much the same at age 35 as it was at age 20. He has avoided the injury problems. He's avoiding the car accidents & marriage problems as well. Other than Jack & Tiger, McIlroy is the only dude to win 4 majors by age 25...and he's been stuck on 4 majors for 10 years during the absolute prime of his career. Pretty big waste of talent. 

a quick note— Rory was forced to change his swing because of a rib injury that still bothers him today. He can’t move the way he used to when he was winning majors. And it’s an adjustment he’s still having issues with IMO. 
 

Scottie doesn’t need to change his swing at all. It’s awesome so he’s got an advantage from that regard over Rory and TW. 

Edited April 22 by peadar

[R_Swanson]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The reason this is a little premature is actually pretty interesting, there are a few layers here and you have to be a bit of a data nerd to appreciate them.  

The initial excitement is coming from the fact that Scottie is starting to sniff certain stats that only Tiger touched previously. If Scottie continues his current play at least into the summer he will be only the second player in the modern stat tracking era to hit 3.00+ Strokes Gained Total. He is also doing all this with a fairly average putter that if he figures anything out on to take a step forward will plant him firmly in Tiger stat territory, which literally no one else in modern golf has done. There are guys having career years stats-wise and he is dusting them. 

The rub is with the fact that if this or anything around this is "peak Scottie", then he'll literally need to accomplish season's form *several* more times before he can start being the same convo as Tiger. That's how good Tiger was in his prime years, AND he was arguably still a tick ahead of Scottie's current dominant form for several of those seasons, including the 2000 era Tiger which is estimated to be almost +4.00 Strokes Gained Total which is just absurd.   

 

Data golf has Scottie at 3.04 as of this morning.

 

2 hours ago, Golfnutgalen said:

  

 

With strokes gained I'm going to say something that is usually left unsaid. If you hit the ball worse of the tee it means you have more potential to gain strokes from there. Basically, if you hit the ball too good off the tee you can't gain as many strokes on approach shots. I don't think Tiger gained as many shots on approach shots in those early years for that factor alone and we know his total strokes gained wasn't better back then with the exception of 2000. That makes sense right? We know he was a better driver of the ball back then which means he has fewer strokes to gain on approach shots, assuming his short game and putting is similar. 

 

Looking at SG Tiger had 3 exceptional years: 2000, 2006, and 2007. (they only measured 5 events in 2008 which is too small a sample size). Obviously all of Tiger's career is exceptional but these stand out. 

 

Here are Tiger's strokes gained total figures during his prime (per datagolf):

 

1996: +1.57

1997: +2.52

1998: +2.41

1999: +3.39

2000: +4.29

2001: +2.87

2002: +3.35

2003: +3.04

2004: +2.77

2005: +2.82

2006: +3.68

2007: +3.75

2008: +3.92

2009: +3.46

2012: +2.68

2013: +2.56

 

 

I don't pay for Data golf, so I don't have all the info... but why is Tigers running total for their "all time" model at 3.89, if he touched 4.29 in 2000?  I thought the "all time" model is the peak that their SG has ever calculated for each player?

[redfirebird08]

9 minutes ago, peadar said:

a quick note— Rory was forced to change his swing because of a rib injury that still bothers him today. He can’t move the way he used to when he was winning majors. And it’s an adjustment he’s still having issues with IMO. 
 

Scottie doesn’t need to change his swing at all. It’s awesome so he’s got an advantage from that regard over Rory and TW. 

 

Hopefully Scheffler is learning from the examples of the past. Stay away from swing changes. Keep yourself out of trouble off the course. He had a minor neck injury recently. Not sure if that's something that could become a bigger issue down the road, but at the moment he played awesome golf in recent weeks despite that challenge. 

[Klubster]

4 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

 

No question. If TW putted like Scottie usually does he wouldn't sleep until he had figured it out. 

Yet, Scheffler has the lowest putting average on tour at 1.669 and if he starts making those we see burn the lip or stop just shirt, imagine what he will do.

[R_Swanson]

6 minutes ago, Klubster said:

Yet, Scheffler has the lowest putting average on tour at 1.669 and if he starts making those we see burn the lip or stop just shirt, imagine what he will do.

 

He putts the least because he's the best iron player and a top 10 chipper, has nothing to do with his putting.  His SG putting has been decidedly average or worse his entire career.

 

He's one of the best chippers in the game - he's been top 25ish since he got on tour.

[hunterjlent]

Hard to believe there will be another run as good as his, but TW did it over and over and over again.

[Pops99]

6 hours ago, me05501 said:

Say Scheffler goes on to have a dominant season and sets a new record for earnings. Will there be an asterisk by his accomplishment related to the bifurcation of the sport? 

 

Something for sports writers to argue about I suppose. 

Yes, the asterisk comes from Gooch not being in the field*

Edited April 22 by Pops99
.

[SilverBullets]

4 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Scottie doesn't even have half as many Majors as Brooks (2 vs. 5).

 

If you want to talk Strokes Gained Records in a short span, okay.

 

But in terms of career accomplishments, Scottie is not even Top 50 all time in wins.

 

Pump the brakes. 

Curtis Strange has 17 wins. Scottie 10. 

I don't disagree with the pump the brakes but this is a weird comp to make.  Brooks is 6 years older and has made 21 more starts in majors than Scottie.  

 

A better comp would be saying pump the brakes because Morikawa is the same age, has 2 majors, and has made 1 less starts in majors than Scottie (not that I'm saying Morikawa is better than Scottie).   

 

Or that by this point in age, Rory would have already won 4 majors (2 of which were by 8 strokes....)

Edited April 22 by SilverBullets