Scottie & Tiger Comparisons

[tiderider]

1 hour ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

The thing I am curious about with Scheffler is fatherhood. His chipping game and iron game are incredibly sharp right now. Will he be spending the same amount of time practicing those shots after he has parental duties? If you spend 6-8 hours per day instead of 12-14 hours per day practicing these precision shots, how much does this impact the sharpness in your chipping or distance control on the iron shots?

 

Nicklaus had his first child at age 21, so he was already dealing with the parental stuff at a very young age. It's VERY impressive that Jack was able to manage this and perform so well in his golf career. Nicklaus also had more financial incentive to keep pushing his golf game compared to modern players. The payouts in golf were a joke back in the 1960's and 1970's. If you wanted to make a good living, you had to win a lot. In the 2020's, you can make an extremely good living and win jack squat. Scheffler has already won enough money to get very lazy with his golf game if he wants. Hell, he could take a massive payout from LIV Golf and relax the rest of his career if he wants. 

 

It would not take much slippage in Scheffler's game to turn some wins into 2nd or 3rd place finishes. I think about his chipping in particular. He holes them a lot or gets super close for easy tap-ins. If those awesome chip shots suddenly turn into 5-7 foot putts, it becomes a lot harder for him to post some of the scores he has been posting. I think his short game is a VERY underrated aspect of his game. Nicklaus by comparison was never great with the short game. 

?? ... people have been talking about his short game for two years ... i was talking about it two year ago myself ... 

[Golfnutgalen]

1 hour ago, R_Swanson said:

 

Data golf has Scottie at 3.04 as of this morning.

 

I don't pay for Data golf, so I don't have all the info... but why is Tigers running total for their "all time" model at 3.89, if he touched 4.29 in 2000?  I thought the "all time" model is the peak that their SG has ever calculated for each player?

 

It depends on what stat you're looking at. I don't pay for it either. 

 

3.04 is their "SG Index" which is the average over the last 100 rounds (25 events) with more recent performances carrying more weight, similar to the World Ranking System. Scottie has only played 10 events this year so it's including last year's performance in their table. 

 

3.45 is his average this season. Performance Table (datagolf.com)

 

Both numbers adjust the figures based on field strength using their model. In their words:

• True strokes-gained is simply regular strokes-gained adjusted for field strength. Its interpretation is the number of strokes better or worse a golfer was in a given round than the average PGA Tour professional in that season.

 

They also have the raw strokes gained which is the same as the PGA Tour except that it will include non-tour events in its calculations.

 

So Tiger's +4.29 in 2000 is using their "True Strokes Gained" formula. They calculated his raw average as well which is +3.93.

 

Scottie's raw average this year is +2.85. It's the best since Tiger in 2009.

Edited April 22 by Golfnutgalen

[redfirebird08]

4 minutes ago, tiderider said:

?? ... people have been talking about his short game for two years ... i was talking about it two year ago myself ... 

 

Still underrated IMHO. Scheffler's ballstriking is so good that I don't think the short game gets the full media attention it probably should. Scheffler is awesome with the chipping & bunker shots. 

Edited April 22 by redfirebird08

[mogc60]

What Tiger did will never be touched again. He was a machine and the tour crumbled to his feet as well. If he was in contention most guys folded away. He went 6+ years without missing a cut compiling 50 wins in that time frame.  Fast forward

Scottie is playing some of the best golf I have witnessed in a very long time. I’m enjoying it so much and it’s hard not to root for that guy. His ball striking is just phenomenal and his ability to hit clutch shots is just getting better and better. There is no debate just enjoy it while it lasts 

[tiderider]

say this ... ss has a 7.5 pt lead in the owgr ... that's huge ... not tiger's best, but up there with average tiger at his best ... 

[redfirebird08]

7 minutes ago, tiderider said:

say this ... ss has a 7.5 pt lead in the owgr ... that's huge ... not tiger's best, but up there with average tiger at his best ... 

 

Here's a funny stat: 

 

 

[NailedIt]

Don't worry guys, in a couple weeks that baby will pop out and we can all get back to the What's Up with Scottie thread!

[black bnr32]

Anyone know how to get Rahm’s shots gained numbers from Q1 2023?  

[nosedive32]

10 hours ago, msd71 said:

Keep in mind that Scotty is beating the super-athletic generation that was inspired to go into golf by Tiger.  These guys play at an entirely different level than circa 2000.  Too early to say how his career compares with Tiger but this run is pretty amazing. 

 

Tiger Woods won a major against "the super athletic generation" in his mid 40s, following a spinal fusion that came after a handful of other back and knee surgeries.

 

Phil Mickelson won a major a month from 51 years old against this generation while going head to head against the most dominant major player of said generation on Sunday.

 

Prime Tiger and Phil still win obscene numbers of tournaments against this generation because they are the greatest and one of the 10 greatest (arguably on a much shorter list in terms of pure talent) players of all time.

 

Scottie is having a nice run. We've seen Rory, Jordan, DJ, Brooks, etc go on nice little runs.

 

I'm not crowning Scottie yet. Who's to say he's not about to go 10 years without winning a major (Rory)?

 

He's 27 and has 1 leg of the career slam (2 total majors)

 

Tiger had 8 Majors, a consecutive slam, and 34 tour wins by the time he turned 28.

 

It's insane to compare anyone to Tiger.

 

 

[nosedive32]

Actually it was 40 PGA tour wins by the time he turned 28.

 

Also a lot has been made about Scottie doubling up world #2 Rory (in an age where there are plenty of elite players on a tour that doesn't get owgr points and the system nerfed the European Tour)

 

At one Point Tiger had nearly tripled up Phil in the world rankings.

[TiScape]

3 hours ago, NailedIt said:

Don't worry guys, in a couple weeks that baby will pop out and we can all get back to the What's Up with Scottie thread!

 

[sheepdawg]

What remains to be seen is how well can Scottie take a 9 iron to the skull.

[golferdude54]

I would say the stroke differential between #1 and #2 is a better measure of how good a #1 ranked player is than comparing against the rest of the field. #2 in 2000 is going to be just as good as #2 in 2024. Tiger's differential from #2 in 2000 was almost 2 strokes.

[Shilgy]

8 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

I would say the stroke differential between #1 and #2 is a better measure of how good a #1 ranked player is than comparing against the rest of the field. #2 in 2000 is going to be just as good as #2 in 2024. Tiger's differential from #2 in 2000 was almost 2 strokes.

You mean scoring average?  Tiger was about 1.2 strokes better than Phil

 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/108

 

Scottie leads Clark by 1.34

 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/108

 

Tiger was he best Ive sever seen play and I saw Jack in his prime.  Part of the Tiger allure was the excitement.  He put himself, fairly often, in poor positions on the course and managed to hit great shots no one seemed to have seen before.  And he was VERY demonstrative when he did with the roars and fist pumps.  
 Scottie is just mind numbingly consistent. And when he hits a great shot or pitch he just gives a little smile.  Like #2 yesterday…over the green in two and the announce says what a tough spot he’s in….so of course he pitches in for eagle…and gives a little smile.

 IF, and it’s a huge if, Scottie ever came close to putting as well as Tiger he would be as good.  But I don’t ever see that happening.

 

So no, he won’t get very close to Tigers win totals imo.  But he is fun to watch if you appreciate great golf.

[golferdude54]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You mean scoring average?  Tiger was about 1.2 strokes better than Phil

 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/108

 

Scottie leads Clark by 1.34

 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/108

 

 

I meant more like this specific stat, stroke differential field average https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/129 and https://datagolf.com/datagolf-rankings?date=20000911

 

Tiger scored 3.84 strokes lower than the field in 2000, with #2 being Phil at 2.17.

3.84 - 2.17 = 1.67 difference.

 

Datagolf was more specific, after he won the Canadian Open at the time he was better than Phil against the field by 1.73 strokes.

[Golfnutgalen]

42 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

I would say the stroke differential between #1 and #2 is a better measure of how good a #1 ranked player is than comparing against the rest of the field. #2 in 2000 is going to be just as good as #2 in 2024. Tiger's differential from #2 in 2000 was almost 2 strokes.

 

It is a cool metric but it's not perfect either because if the #2 is playing exceptionally well the gap is smaller than it should be. For example Tiger and Rory were neck and neck in 2012. Woods was only 0.07 ahead of Rory while the next best Justin Rose was a full 0.51 strokes behind. 

 

Another good example is 2003 when Vijay was starting to really heat up. Woods was 0.26 ahead of him and 0.59 ahead of the next Mike Weir. 

 

It would be neat to use a metric like #1 vs the rest of the top 10s average. It should remove some of that flukiness away. 

[JungleJimbo]

 

 

[R_Swanson]

17 hours ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

It depends on what stat you're looking at. I don't pay for it either. 

 

3.04 is their "SG Index" which is the average over the last 100 rounds (25 events) with more recent performances carrying more weight, similar to the World Ranking System. Scottie has only played 10 events this year so it's including last year's performance in their table. 

 

3.45 is his average this season. Performance Table (datagolf.com)

 

Both numbers adjust the figures based on field strength using their model. In their words:

• True strokes-gained is simply regular strokes-gained adjusted for field strength. Its interpretation is the number of strokes better or worse a golfer was in a given round than the average PGA Tour professional in that season.

 

They also have the raw strokes gained which is the same as the PGA Tour except that it will include non-tour events in its calculations.

 

So Tiger's +4.29 in 2000 is using their "True Strokes Gained" formula. They calculated his raw average as well which is +3.93.

 

Scottie's raw average this year is +2.85. It's the best since Tiger in 2009.

Thanks - I was looking for the timeframe for the SG index.  FWIW I found it after digging (and your post) and its actually ~150 rounds, not 100.

 

I was unaware over the shorter timeframe (per season) Tiger strokes gained were so high.  Great info.  I never saw table on the site.

[peadar]

 

Edited April 23 by peadar

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, peadar said:

 

 

No, TW wasn’t #1 11 straight years 🤣

[m d g]

On 4/22/2024 at 8:36 AM, straightshot7 said:

Phil was almost 51 years old! Tiger was clearly hobbled and 44 years old and somehow able to beat these athletic beasts 😄

 

'Athleticism' only goes so far in golf.

 

I play with a guy in his 70s who pounds the ball (and shoots his age) but uses a cart because the uphill walks tire him out : )

 

To me, athleticism is synonymous with hand-eye coordination...

[redfirebird08]

32 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

No, TW wasn’t #1 11 straight years 🤣

 

No, but he was #1 for over 13 years combined. So the post was saying as great as Scheffler has been the last 2.5 seasons, he will need to keep it up for 11 more years to match Tiger's total weeks at #1 in the ranking. That's kind of mindblowing. It will be interesting to see how everything plays out for Scheffler. He's on an amazing run at the moment. 

[MountainKing]

None of how Scottie hits it vs Tiger hits matters.  Revisit this topic in 10 years,  if Scottie is still doing it then we can talk Scottie vs Tiger.

[redfirebird08]

11 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

None of how Scottie hits it vs Tiger hits matters.  Revisit this topic in 10 years,  if Scottie is still doing it then we can talk Scottie vs Tiger.

 

Heck, I would be VERY impressed if Scheffler can keep this going for 3-5 more years. A lot of guys have had really strong runs for a few years before falling off. Johnny Miller, David Duval, Dustin Johnson, Jordan Spieth, Jason Day. On and on. 

 

You could argue Rory McIlroy goes in this category as well, even though his game has been good enough to stay in the Top 3 of the rankings for a very long time. Rory piled up 4 majors in 4 seasons before age 26 and went into a major drought for the next 10 years. 

[MountainKing]

9 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

 

Heck, I would be VERY impressed if Scheffler can keep this going for 3-5 more years. A lot of guys have had really strong runs for a few years before falling off. Johnny Miller, David Duval, Dustin Johnson, Jordan Spieth, Jason Day. On and on. 

 

You could argue Rory McIlroy goes in this category as well, even though his game has been good enough to stay in the Top 3 of the rankings for a very long time. Rory piled up 4 majors in 4 seasons before age 26 and went into a major drought for the next 10 years. 

 

Yup.  At the moment that's what it is,  a great run of golf like we see every couple years.  You can argue and debate stats and game all you want,  but until Scottie starts sniffing 82 wins and 15 majors there's no conversation to be had.  I couldn't even seriously entertain a Scottie vs Phil.  He's got such a long way to go.

 

 

 

 

[Golfnutgalen]

5 hours ago, R_Swanson said:

Thanks - I was looking for the timeframe for the SG index.  FWIW I found it after digging (and your post) and its actually ~150 rounds, not 100.

 

I was unaware over the shorter timeframe (per season) Tiger strokes gained were so high.  Great info.  I never saw table on the site.

Oops my bad thanks for checking. When I clicked it it went straight to 100 rounds, but the actual article says approximately 150.

 

One of the crazy things when you look at those rankings is it has Vijay's peak right after 2003 (Feb 2004). You would think it would be after his 9 wins in 2004.

[redfirebird08]

4 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

Oops my bad thanks for checking. When I clicked it it went straight to 100 rounds, but the actual article says approximately 150.

 

One of the crazy things when you look at those rankings is it has Vijay's peak right after 2003 (Feb 2004). You would think it would be after his 9 wins in 2004.

 

Kind of makes you wonder about some of these advanced stats, doesn't it? Lol. Personally I don't think the strokes gained stat is giving an accurate portrayal of Tiger's dominance from 1999 to 2002. Wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit off the mark for Vijay's peak as well. 

[Stevens24]

Well once he wins a tournament later than April EVER We can talk. But right now he is a guy who wins a lot early in the year and then goes away

[Need4spd]

Of course, it’s FAR too early to have this conversation. We’re only doing it because we’re desperate for greatness. Parity does not sell. It’s boring. I’m a golf junkie so I’m going to watch no matter what, but you can bet that I’ll be more excited next time Scottie tees it up to see what happens.
 

A better question, although we won’t know the answer for a long time, is over/under on total victories for Scottie? Over/under on major victories? 
 

I’m sure someone somewhere on this forum has already posed that question.

Edited April 24 by Need4spd

[stinger_gc]

On 4/22/2024 at 8:12 PM, black bnr32 said:

Anyone know how to get Rahm’s shots gained numbers from Q1 2023?  

Scottie is currently at 2.851  per round and a full shot better then the #2 player. Rahm was at 2.421 per round through the Heritage last year and only .17 ahead of Scottie. I think what Scottie is doing right now is way more impressive then Rahm last year. Rahm won at Kapalua and Palm Springs last year and those events usually artificially boost SG because of how low scoring is