Counter Weights when extensions exist

[KeithOpa]

Being 6’5” I added extensions on std set graphic irons. The swing weights of course went way up. It did not occur to me—the extension plugs prevent installing sleeve which would contain counter weight plugs. What to do?

Edited April 26 by KeithOpa

[skraly]

Depends on why you want to counter weight.  If you’re trying to get a lower swing weight to counter the increase caused by the longer length then you’re going about it incorrectly.  If you’re using counter weights to improve ball contact then that us a different story.  Depending on the I.D. Of your extensions you can probably find a steel bolt that would fit and allow counter weighting.  Obviously the longer the bolt the heavier it would be.

[st1800e]

Or lead tape under the grip.  

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, skraly said:

Depends on why you want to counter weight.  If you’re trying to get a lower swing weight to counter the increase caused by the longer length then you’re going about it incorrectly.  If you’re using counter weights to improve ball contact then that us a different story.  Depending on the I.D. Of your extensions you can probably find a steel bolt that would fit and allow counter weighting.  Obviously the longer the bolt the heavier it would be.

THIS is correct

We can NOT reduce feel or resistance from head weight, by adding weight on the grip side. 
That only fools the SW scale who will return a lower value, while a MOI scale will tell us that actual resistance to swing went UP, not down, so a club that feels to heavy, becomes even worse when we try that. 

The only way to deal with a head weight too high, is to reduce head weight itself, or go shorter when that can be done.

Most but not all IRON heads, can be reduced by about 10 grams on head weight by hosel drilling
I make a smaller hole than shaft OD, so we keep insert as it is, and in extreme cases, we can even lower BBGM and shorten the hosel itself combined with hosel drilling.

Hosel drilling is NOT a DIY job, unless you have a drill press and hosel fixture. Without that, we should not go deeper than 3/8" so its limited what we can do at home without the right equipment.

 

[AmateurAmateur]

4 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

THIS is correct

We can NOT reduce feel or resistance from head weight, by adding weight on the grip side. 
That only fools the SW scale who will return a lower value, while a MOI scale will tell us that actual resistance to swing went UP, not down, so a club that feels to heavy, becomes even worse when we try that. 

The only way to deal with a head weight too high, is to reduce head weight itself, or go shorter when that can be done.

Most but not all IRON heads, can be reduced by about 10 grams on head weight by hosel drilling
I make a smaller hole than shaft OD, so we keep insert as it is, and in extreme cases, we can even lower BBGM and shorten the hosel itself combined with hosel drilling.

Hosel drilling is NOT a DIY job, unless you have a drill press and hosel fixture. Without that, we should not go deeper than 3/8" so its limited what we can do at home without the right equipment.

 

Wish more club builders were aware that counter weighting doesn’t result in a lighter swingweight and only tricks the scale. Long suspected that as a teenager when I had an interest in building clubs and all the local people I learned from either didn’t comprehend or refused to consider that swing weight is only truly reduced by a lighter head weight. 

[Ger21]

Golf clubs are the only thing you can add weight too, and everyone thinks they get lighter. 🤣

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, AmateurAmateur said:

Wish more club builders were aware that counter weighting doesn’t result in a lighter swingweight and only tricks the scale. Long suspected that as a teenager when I had an interest in building clubs and all the local people I learned from either didn’t comprehend or refused to consider that swing weight is only truly reduced by a lighter head weight. 

I learned that the hard way....

A player with DGS 400 TI at plus 0.5"
I added 25 grams lead tape under the grips, and used MID size grips that was about 10 grams plus vs standard, so a total of 35 grams "counterweight" (about 6 SWP down since the lead tape covered 10 inches)

How do you think those clubs would feel on weight, and how do you think they worked? 
LOL....they became agriculture tools, with turfs larger than a sq feet each...since total weight pulls the club deeper down (only fat shots)

I had to take it all apart, and hosel drill the heads, and replace 8x new decade mid size grips, and then it worked as it should.  

Counterweight works on PUTTERS, but NOT because head side becomes lighter, but because we add resistance on the top, so our hands cant "speed up", and cause the head to "lag" behind.

The SW scale was NOT designed to handle grip weight, ONLY to "match" head weight vs shaft in a SET of clubs, thats why its a good instrument, even if the return values is arbitrary. If we useit correct, we will make it right.

Tune up your favorite iron (dont even look at values when tuning it), THEN measure it when you are done with the tune up, now we can duplicate that value to the rest of THAT set.

[Stuart_G]

3 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

The SW scale was NOT designed to handle grip weight, ONLY to "match" head weight vs shaft in a SET of clubs,

 

Yes.  The origins have been lost and people are too fixated on the device.  But if you do go back to the original patent submitted by Adams, it's actually spelled out explicitly how it's supposed to be used:

 

two methods of adjustment to match the implement with which it is being compared are available; weight may be removed from the remote end of the implement, or the handle itself may be shortened.

 

So you can change the length or change the head weight - that's it.

[PJE]

Hello Club Techs, 

This is an interesting thread.

Last year I reshafted my first set of clubs but I made them longer. I added 12-16 g counterweights in the butt due to being concerned about swingweight . I ended up with heavy feeling clubs. So, I cut off the glue in weights with shaft (about 1/2”). And lo and behold, all was well with the final product. The clubs felt and swung fine.
I came to the conclusion that in a quest to replicate the swingweight of the removed shaft set, I was sacrificing feel (and probably performance ). I learned in this thread I was on the right track! 
But, I’ve seen a product on Golfworks, Tour Lock, which you stick into the end of the grip. The weights start at 8 g but there are several weights available. 

I don’t understand how that’s different than the glue in counterweights I used and how the Tour Lock type counterweight would help a golfer? 

Edited April 27 by PJE

[st1800e]

48 minutes ago, PJE said:

I don’t understand how that’s different than the glue in counterweights 

They’re not.  They both add weight to the grip end of the shaft.  One model of Tour Lock allows them to be secured further down the Shaft, but that’s just increasing the total weight if the club.  Might fool the swingweight scale but the club will just be heavier overall.  
Some players might find that works for them, but many won’t.  
Jack notably counterbalanced his clubs with lead tape under the grip, however I’d say he was a strong player and with limited shaft selection in his day that was just something that worked for him.  

[skraly]

3 hours ago, PJE said:

Hello Club Techs, 

This is an interesting thread.

Last year I reshafted my first set of clubs but I made them longer. I added 12-16 g counterweights in the butt due to being concerned about swingweight . I ended up with heavy feeling clubs. So, I cut off the glue in weights with shaft (about 1/2”). And lo and behold, all was well with the final product. The clubs felt and swung fine.
I came to the conclusion that in a quest to replicate the swingweight of the removed shaft set, I was sacrificing feel (and probably performance ). I learned in this thread I was on the right track! 
But, I’ve seen a product on Golfworks, Tour Lock, which you stick into the end of the grip. The weights start at 8 g but there are several weights available. 

I don’t understand how that’s different than the glue in counterweights I used and how the Tour Lock type counterweight would help a golfer? 

Many golfers do not understand that swing weight and total weight are all important to how a club feels when it is swung.  Any individual golfer maybe more sensitive to one factor than another.  I’ll take myself as an example.  Currently playing to about a 5 or 6 hcp at age 72.  But I’ve been as low as scratch in the past.  So better than average but certainly not a world beater.  I know that for myself, I am more sensitive to total weight first and last swing weight.  In fact I don’t really care about my clubs swing weight at all.  If the total weight is right, I don’t really need to know the swing weight.  Now a caveat to this-here I’m referring to clubs hit off of the ground.  Drivers are a little different.  
So, counter weighting can improve some players ball contact but it is by no means a guarantee.  A little experimentation is required.  I’ve experimented with various counter weighting in my irons in the past but it either did nothing so not worth the effort, or actually made my contact worse.  But, I’ve also met players who counter weighted and thought it improved their ball contact.

So you won’t know if you don’t try but I wouldn’t expect too much.

As to your question about Tour-lock weights specifically, they are more convenient to use than a weight under the grip.  They make it easy to experiment with different weights in an effort to find a counter weighting that might work for you.  The only down sides are cost and you have to bore a hole in the end of the grip to allow insertion of the weight.  There is a tool sold for that purpose.

Again, feel free to experiment but don’t expect a game changer.

[Stuart_G]

8 hours ago, st1800e said:

Some players might find that works for them, but many won’t.  
Jack notably counterbalanced his clubs with lead tape under the grip, however I’d say he was a strong player and with limited shaft selection in his day that was just something that worked for him.  

 

Yes - butt weights are not about swing weight - but they are about potentially changing the feel of the club in positive or helpful way.

 

Tom Wishon talked here in the forum about some testing on (true) counterbalancing full swing clubs a while back.  If memory serves, they found that:

~1/3 of the individuals tested saw some improvement in the fit of the club with counterbalancing (5-20 gm). 

~1/3 of the individuals the weight made things worse

~1/3 of the individuals so little to no difference in the results.

 

And he also said that they found no correlation between the individuals in those 3 groups to help predict what group someone might end up in.

 

And it was noted that the testing added weight AFTER the head weight had been properly fit for first.  So do your best to get everything (grip selection, shaft weight + head weight) else fit first - then try adding some additional weight to the butt (~5 gm increments) to test out the idea.

 

Then of course butt weights have been found to be very popular on putters - and even in much higher weights than with the full swing clubs.   I myself like ~40 gm added to about a ~75 gm grip in my putter.

 

Edited April 27 by Stuart_G

[KeithOpa]

Thanks everyone. Grateful for the education