What's your biggest "illusion shattering" moments in golf instruction "aha" moments that you wish you knew earlier?

[brick101]

 

It seems a "flatter" shoulder turn takeaway is more likely to create an over the top move and slice. While a steeper spine tilt takeaway is more likely to create high hands and space to drop the club to the inside which will be easier to draw the ball. (The x pattern Tiger talks about) 

 

Is this generally true? 

 

[Valtiel]

17 hours ago, nikos74 said:

...and understands the basic motion of the golf swing

If you mean that in the literal, fundamental sense then you could probably fit this group into the lobby of a La Quinta 😂

I say that as someone that knows *just* enough to recognize I may or may not be welcome in said lobby. 😅

[virtuoso]

On 4/29/2024 at 10:03 PM, Chunkitgood said:

When by remarkable synchronicity on the same day I saw Bill Harmon, Steven Seagall, and Richard Feynman all say “you figure it out by yourself, you own it.”

 

 

Those 3 would be make up my fantasy foursome for a charity scramble.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

If you mean that in the literal, fundamental sense then you could probably fit this group into the lobby of a La Quinta 😂

I say that as someone that knows *just* enough to recognize I may or may not be welcome in said lobby. 😅

Well yes, because while he says "understanding basic motion", he also mentions not to sway, so he misunderstands that the pelvis does sway in a good golf swing, but it is masked over by the tilt and rotation. 

 

80 percent of discussions about golf instruction is just a massive series of misunderstandings.

[GolfSwang]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but this blew my mind:

 

Impact happens on the trail side of the body. AMG guys explain it well

 

 

 

[nikos74]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Well yes, because while he says "understanding basic motion", he also mentions not to sway, so he misunderstands that the pelvis does sway in a good golf swing, but it is masked over by the tilt and rotation. 

 

80 percent of discussions about golf instruction is just a massive series of misunderstandings.

The hips and shoulders are supposed to turn over the ball, thus maintaining the low point till impact.  What you describe sounds like a reverse pivot with pressure on the wrong foot in the backswing.

 

"Understanding basic motion" of the club moving on a tilted axis around the body.  And obviously this for one plane swings.  Two plane swings are half different.

Edited May 1 by nikos74

[moehogan]

2 hours ago, GolfSwang said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but this blew my mind:

 

Impact happens on the trail side of the body. AMG guys explain it well

 

 

 

Interesting that Martin put this up about 5 years ago. He may be cryptic at times but he’s a really smart guy. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0C3vzFrzew?si=gw-ybxjQf-A6b6bP

Edited May 1 by moehogan

[FormerBigDaddy]

On 4/30/2024 at 3:18 PM, nikos74 said:

The shoulders tilt naturally as they turn around the body since you are bent over the ball at address. 

I complete disagree with this statement. For many people, they do not increase lead side bend/tilt as they turn and it’s the #1 cause of a low and inside takeaway. 

[nikos74]

10 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I complete disagree with this statement. For many people, they do not increase lead side bend/tilt as they turn and it’s the #1 cause of a low and inside takeaway. 

Not sure what you mean by low, inside takeaway.  I don't suck the club in with my hands or arms, rather the body turns and the arms move freely putting the club on the correct plane automatically.  The club is supposed to come in gradually as soon as the swing starts. That follows the tilted arc theme.  Most instructors propose a high outside takeaway, I guess to combat hands and arms sucking the club in which many people have a tendency of doing.  But IMO it's wrong from a theoretical perspective as it throws the club off-plane and does not allow proper wrist rotation either.

 

If the standard teaching model works for you then keep using it, but all these unnecessary and artificial complications could be the reason people lose their form often and take time to regain it.

 

 

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

The hips and shoulders are supposed to turn over the ball, thus maintaining the low point till impact.  What you describe sounds like a reverse pivot with pressure on the wrong foot in the backswing.

 

"Understanding basic motion" of the club moving on a tilted axis around the body.  And obviously this for one plane swings.  Two plane swings are half different.

Damn it! I was hoping you wouldn't notice that I was trying to describe a reverse pivot. Now I must hatch entirely new plans to lead people astray.

[FormerBigDaddy]

6 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Not sure what you mean by low, inside takeaway.  I don't suck the club in with my hands or arms, rather the body turns and the arms move freely putting the club on the correct plane automatically.  The club is supposed to come in gradually as soon as the swing starts. That follows the tilted arc theme.  Most instructors propose a high outside takeaway, I guess to combat hands and arms sucking the club in which many people have a tendency of doing.  But IMO it's wrong from a theoretical perspective as it throws the club off-plane and does not allow proper wrist rotation either.

 

If the standard teaching model works for you then keep using it, but all these unnecessary and artificial complications could be the reason people lose their form often and take time to regain it.

 

 

I think you and I are saying the same things. Except you don’t feel the steeper turn and I have to like many others. I’m sure you can pull up the gears guys videos where they say a large majority of amateurs turn on a flatter shoulder plane angle than most pros. You may be one of the lucky ones that do it naturally. But for me I had to learn how to tilt as I turn in order to get the club working on the right plane. 

[nikos74]

4 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I think you and I are saying the same things. Except you don’t feel the steeper turn and I have to like many others. I’m sure you can pull up the gears guys videos where they say a large majority of amateurs turn on a flatter shoulder plane angle than most pros. You may be one of the lucky ones that do it naturally. But for me I had to learn how to tilt as I turn in order to get the club working on the right plane. 

I did suck the club in when I first started.  First it was the hands doing it.  Then later on it was only the arms doing it.  Eventually with the medicus the shoulders turning.  Lastly without the medicus the hips turning with a proper pressure shift in the feet.  Not really a weight shift until after impact with the ball.  That is another issue that is confusing.

 

Back in the 90s when I had several lessons I think the jim hardy/ben hogan swing was popular.  But my second instructor was a two planer I think and he really confused me.  I gave up on lessons and learned the rest myself.  I wish I had gotten the medicus driver as well.  Only got the 5 iron.

[virtuoso]

16 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

...I think the jim hardy/ben hogan swing was...

...I think the REO Speedwagon/Mozart music was...

Edited May 1 by virtuoso

[diablocrusher]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:12 AM, getitdaily said:

Ground force and earlier lead side pressure 

I've been playing for nearly 25 years and just figured out earlier lead side pressure last week.  Game changer. 

[KD1]

3 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I’m sure you can pull up the gears guys videos

I linked to it earlier, they said the trend is too steep! [Edit: No they didn't. I imagined that]

 

What ever we feel my takeaway is that the shoulders turn square about the tilted spine... Don't rack em all c0ckeyed

 

Their position, if I remember correctly, was If you put a shaft across your shoulders and turn in your backswing the shaft should point 4 to 8 ft past the ball. [Edit: I remembered that part correctly. The shoulder plane doesn't point near the ball which was my own previous misconception]

Edited May 2 by KD1

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

I wish I had gotten the medicus driver as well.  Only got the 5 iron.

 

I used to pretend I had a Medicus putter and it would break down on me if I didn't make a smooth stroke.

[TheDeanAbides]

16 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I complete disagree with this statement. For many people, they do not increase lead side bend/tilt as they turn and it’s the #1 cause of a low and inside takeaway. 

I think that the number one cause of a low inside takeaway is the erroneous belief that the arms swing around the body.

Edited May 2 by TheDeanAbides
Typo

[johnrobison]

I was told that inconsistent shots were a result of me squaring the face too late in the downswing (high rate of closure) so I spent years trying to get it square sooner, having that "toe-down" look at P6. Then I saw a study showing no correlation whatsoever between dispersion and ROC in good players. I felt like I wasted years chasing a look.

[Nard_S]

2 hours ago, johnrobison said:

I was told that inconsistent shots were a result of me squaring the face too late in the downswing (high rate of closure) so I spent years trying to get it square sooner, having that "toe-down" look at P6. Then I saw a study showing no correlation whatsoever between dispersion and ROC in good players. I felt like I wasted years chasing a look.

I kind of felt the same way but I've realized I was never applying an ROC that fit correctly, because the body and hand extension has to match it too. So I would get in trouble with a toe down look and abandon it. I'm back to applying it with a better match of body turn and wrist extension. 

[hafnia]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:22 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

About 8-10 years ago when I saw pressure traces of tour players and learned the shift was the last move of the backswing, not the first move of the downswing.

 

been on a tour of Scotland (renaissance and dunbar were highlights), last day on range started hitting fat and tried to hit down/ahead of ball........ made things worse.  All of a sudden I thought - "broomforce" - unhinge the club to the ground about 15 inches behind the ball (longer with longer clubs, shorted with short irons).  Why would anyone think of doing that when they are fatting the ball?!!!!  - but I just committed to it - next thing I was hitting lovely shallow divots.  

 

Now that intention is so counterintuitive but works

[FormerBigDaddy]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:50 AM, brick101 said:

 

It seems a "flatter" shoulder turn takeaway is more likely to create an over the top move and slice. While a steeper spine tilt takeaway is more likely to create high hands and space to drop the club to the inside which will be easier to draw the ball. (The x pattern Tiger talks about) 

 

Is this generally true? 

 

Yes, but a flatter shoulder turn with late arm lift can also set up a big lateral slide with the lower body in order to get the club back on plane.  Usually results in a big inside out swing and only flipping the hands will save shots from push slices.  Very common pattern as well.

[Lefthook]

I had an epiphany about shaft flex some 30 years ago, shortly after moving from regular (+) flex to stiff. The first beauty of it was that I finally was able to hit the ball hard and low. But it took perhaps three rounds before I was able to get the 5 iron properly airborne. The harder I tried, the lower it went, it seemed. Then I recalled something I'd read about shaft flex, and I realised I needed to do the opposite. I was trying to load & release the shaft earlier to get it airborn, but stiffer shaft rebounds sooner, so I needed to do the opposite ... literally try to keep the load all the way into the ball. And as soon as I managed to do that out on the course the ball flew high and long ... and the feedback from impact was beautiful.