Golf League OOB, Provisional and Local Rule

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Where exactly is that said in the E-5?

Everything I’ve read in E-5 requires a fairway reference point and just the general area as a whole. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

56 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

 

“When a player’s ball has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds, the player may proceed as follows rather than proceeding under stroke and distance.

For two penalty strokes, the player may take relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area(see Rule 14.3):

Two Estimated Reference Points:

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have:

• Come to rest on the course, or
• Last crossed the edge of the course boundary to go out of bounds.

b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

Size of Relief Area Based on Reference Points: Anywhere between:

• A line from the hole through the ball reference point (and within two club-lengths to the outside of that line), and
• A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengthsto the fairway side of that line).        

     
    But with these limits:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

Okay, so let's go to your hypothetical. Remember, the rule does not say you MUST drop in the fairway. It gives you these reference points to determine your relief area. 

 

Player on the tee blasts one way right. It only goes 150 yards and the start of the fairway is a forced carry of 200 yards. 

 

In this case the player can draw a line from the ball reference point to the nearest fairway point, This may very well be the original teeing area. The lateral bounds of the relief area are two club lengths to the far sides of the ball reference point and the fairway reference point. 

 

Now, based on the caveat (Limits on location of relief area), the relief area cannot be closer to the hole. So the player would (mentally) draw a line from the flagstick through the outer lateral limits of the relief area extending backwards. Then draw a straight line from the ball reference point to the left outer lateral limit. Anywhere in the general area behind that line and bounded by the lateral limits is within the relief area. Doesn't need to be in the fairway.

 

In practice, the player would pretty much find a line to the left of where the ball crossed that they have a clear shot, no closer to the hole than the ball reference point, in the wedge determined by the ball reference point and the line drawn back towards the teeing area where they are likely to drop and have a decent lie (i.e. light rough instead of heavy rough, pine straw, etc). Not go back to the tee. 

Edited May 12 by betarhoalphadelta
missed something in the description--changed.

[YellowV1x]

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

This may very well be the original teeing area.

 

 

Practically speaking the fairway reference point would probably be the most forward tee box in this hypothetical, so not quite as draconian as the original tee box.  Agree, though, that for a really bad shot (one that doesn't even get past the next tee box) it might wind up being the original tee box in which case re-teeing under stroke and distance is likely the preferred relief.

[Imp]

34 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Everything I’ve read in E-5 requires a fairway reference point and just the general area as a whole. 

Can put the ball in the general area no closer to the hole from (1) where the ball was thought to have been lost/ob and to (2) the fairway where you then also get two clubs. That's 2 points. Need the 1st reference point where the ball crossed OB or thought to be lost, and the 2nd for the fairway drop option (but can be anywhere in an arc in the general area)

Edited May 12 by Imp

[Mr. Bean]

23 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Okay, so let's go to your hypothetical. Remember, the rule does not say you MUST drop in the fairway. It gives you these reference points to determine your relief area. 

 

Player on the tee blasts one way right. It only goes 150 yards and the start of the fairway is a forced carry of 200 yards. 

 

In this case the player can draw a line from the ball reference point to the nearest fairway point, This may very well be the original teeing area.

 

Based on your description the nearest fairway point would be at the edge of the fairway, not on the original teeing area. If that were the case then your idea does not work as that point is closer to hole than the ball reference point.

 

However, the fairway reference point could be by another teeing ground not closer to the hole than the ball reference point.

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 minutes ago, cjt3 said:

 

Practically speaking the fairway reference point would probably be the most forward tee box in this hypothetical, so not quite as draconian as the original tee box.  Agree, though, that for a really bad shot (one that doesn't even get past the next tee box) it might wind up being the original tee box in which case re-teeing under stroke and distance is likely the preferred relief.

 

Very well might be the preferred relief. But it's definitely not the ONLY relief. Nor would going back to one of the forward teeing areas (if they are the fairway reference point be required. 

 

The biggest point is that E-5 doesn't require you drop in the fairway. That is one option, of course. But you can drop in the rough if it's in your relief area and it's better than the fairway. 

 

I had a round where I hit one OB over the green (didn't realize there was OB back there as it was my first time on the course). The rough near the OB line was very light, and I wasn't going to walk all the way around to the other side of the hole to drop in the fairway, and I had plenty of green to work with from behind the green. So I dropped in bounds a few yards to the side of the ball reference point (on an arc so I was no nearer the hole) and pitched on. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

Based on your description the nearest fairway point would be at the edge of the fairway, not on the original teeing area. If that were the case then your idea does not work as that point is closer to hole than the ball reference point.

 

However, the fairway reference point could be by another teeing ground not closer to the hole than the ball reference point.

 

Actually that's where my edit came from. For a second I thought the fairway reference point could be closer to the hole, but then reread the rule. I was thinking if you hit the ball 150 yards towards a 200 yard forced carry, you could use the nearest point in the fairway even if closer to the hole. But that was wrong and I had to edit... Seems I didn't make my edit as clean as I thought. 

 

Nearest fairway reference point cannot be closer to the hole, so as you and @cjt3 point out, it may be the original teeing area or some other teeing area forward of the one originally hit from. 

 

And on many courses you have a closely mown "walking path" between the teeing areas and the fairway. If one exists, that is likely your fairway reference point in a scenario like this. 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

I see.  I was misreading the in between part. 
 

Like you were saying you do need a fairway reference point established and that isn’t likely to help find a relief spot if ithar reference point is back on the tee. 
 

 

Perhaps I can help. Or maybe muddle things up a bit more ? LOL

 

I trust you saw the pic I posted earlier, responding to YOUR pic of the hole, yes ? Yet no comment about it from you.

 

I will admit E-5 is a bit unclear about this particular situation but in that USGA pic it shows there is a rather large part of the relief area that is NOT on the fairway.

 

So take the mock-up of YOUR pic I put together. I didn't notice any verbiage that says the fairway reference point needs to be equidistant to the ball reference point.

 

So, would my mock-up be correct ? The FRP is further away from the pin than the BRP. Is that not permitted ? If it IS allowed, then you have a seemingly huge area to drop in. Not so ?

 

Edited May 12 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

This is what I wrote yesterday:

 

"So, in your case the player should have determined the point of fairway that is closest to the ball reference point (where the ball was estimated to have gone OB). That point would not have been equidistant with the ball reference point but according to that text it is not a requirement.

 

P.S. It sure makes a funny looking arc..."

 

It seems you have reached the same conclusion but unlike myself, with a picture.  That always helps. However, I do not think the yellow arrow is correct as the arc can be symmetrical until there is a line travelling from the hole to FRP (the green arrow). Then the "arc" travels to the FRP.

 

 

Edited May 12 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

This is what I wrote yesterday:

 

"So, in your case the player should have determined the point of fairway that is closest to the ball reference point (where the ball was estimated to have gone OB). That point would not have been equidistant with the ball reference point but according to that text it is not a requirement.

 

P.S. It sure makes a funny looking arc..."

 

It seems you have reached the same conclusion but unlike myself, with a picture.  That always helps. However, I do not think the yellow arrow is correct as the arc can be symmetrical until there is a line travelling from the hole to FRP (the green arrow). Then the "arc" travels to the FRP.

 

 

 

Must've missed the "funny-looking arc" comment.

 

USGA/R&A might want to make that a little more clear.

[Halebopp]

I don't understand this discussion about "funny arcs". The arc is always a segment of a circle centred on the hole. The fairway reference point is only used to determine the other side edge of the relief area, not the front edge of the area, that's determined by the ball reference point.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Halebopp said:

I don't understand this discussion about "funny arcs". The arc is always a segment of a circle centred on the hole.

 

How do you draw an arc through points A and B that have a different distance from the hole? You may need a mathematical equation slightly more complex than a circle...

 

As we tried to figure this out with @nsxguy in the drawing there would be an arc and then a straight line connecting the arc with the FRP and that line would determine the relief area. Mathematically that line would not be an arc but in layman's terms it would be a "funny-looking arc" 😉

 

 

Edited May 13 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, Halebopp said:

I don't understand this discussion about "funny arcs". The arc is always a segment of a circle centred on the hole. The fairway reference point is only used to determine the other side edge of the relief area, not the front edge of the area, that's determined by the ball reference point.

 

Fwiw, the tool I used for the mock-up draws a perfect circle. I started from the pin. So, within the circle there is no FRP.

 

If you look at the pic in the MLR for this situation, the pic shows the fairway right up to the front of the green and even surrounding the green.

 

That is not the case in the picture posted by @TroyB123 of the hole in question at his course.

 

I wonder if there should even BE a "fairway reference point" in the MLR ? The MLR "admits" "When a provisional ball has not been played, significant issues with pace of play can result for a player needing to take stroke-and-distance relief for a ball that is out of bounds or cannot be found. The purpose of this Local Rule is to allow a Committee to provide an extra relief option that allows a player to play on without returning to the location of the previous stroke

 

Given that, I wonder if they really thought this through. I struggle to think of a reason why they didn't just word it the way you "suggest".

 

Create an arc or circle using the BRP and drop in the general area outside that arc. Easy peasy ?

[TroyB123]

16 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Create an arc or circle using the BRP and drop in the general area outside that arc. Easy peasy ?

It's tough to see a downside of that, and would be much easier to follow.   They can add a limit that once the arc hits the fairway, it ends 2 club lengths in (if they think dropping in the middle of the fairway is too advantageous.)

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

It's tough to see a downside of that, and would be much easier to follow.   They can add a limit that once the arc hits the fairway, it ends 2 club lengths in (if they think dropping in the middle of the fairway is too advantageous.)

 

Well, in all honesty, I haven't thought it through very much myself.

 

But I expect they had a reason for the 2 CL once you find the fairway, otherwise one could get to the middle of the fairway.

 

If you think about it, especially on a dogleg where you lost the ball to the inner part of the dogleg, 2 CL into the fairway still doesn't guarantee a perfect look forward.

 

There was a "par 3" discussion on this very issue where there were basically 3 separate teeing areas, the player lost a ball up near but well short of the green and everybody was trying to figure out where the E-5 drop should be.

 

Iirc, it was dropped onto the front tee box as that was the only area cut to fairway height.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

Given that, I wonder if they really thought this through.

 

Well, yes and no.

 

Those cases where there is no fairway to be used are uncommon and no general Rule / MLR should be drafted to cover very uncommon or peculiar cases but to give a decent tool to cover the 95+ % situations. And even though we do not use E-5 around here I believe the guidance in MLR E-5 is sufficient to cover at least 99% of all cases, and to me that is a very fair coverage.

 

Though, IMO they should have given an example of one of those cases where there is no FRP equidistant with the BRP. The diagrams presented do not cover those cases, as we have seen in this thread.

[SNIPERBBB]

They do lay out what to do if no fairway is a available. It's just not one that would result in people taking the option 

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

They do lay out what to do if no fairway is a available.

 

Do tell us where. Your examples are covered with the text in E-5, but what if there are no paths or such?

 

Edited May 13 by Mr. Bean

[SNIPERBBB]

Come back to the ladies tees or which ever tee box it did get past? 

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Come back to the ladies tees or which ever tee box it did get past? 

 

Yes, that was one of your examples as well as the model text of E-5. I was more curious of par4 or par5 cases where there (for some odd reason) is a large area of rough between the green and the end of fairway, Like in the case we have been discussing. It is THERE it would be nice to have an example with a diagram or two.

 

Besides, you do not simply "come back to ladies tee". You need to have the infamous "arc" to play with.

 

 

Edited May 13 by Mr. Bean

[Halebopp]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How do you draw an arc through points A and B that have a different distance from the hole? You may need a mathematical equation slightly more complex than a circle...

 

As we tried to figure this out with @nsxguy in the drawing there would be an arc and then a straight line connecting the arc with the FRP and that line would determine the relief area. Mathematically that line would not be an arc but in layman's terms it would be a "funny-looking arc" 😉

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. If point A is the Ball Reference Point that determines the equidistant arc from the hole, on or behind which the ball must be dropped. What is point B? The Fairway Reference Point only determines the other end point of the equidistant arc.

 

Red dot is the BRP, the orange circle is the equidistant arc from the hole, blue dot is the FRP on the nearest edge of a teeing ground and the yellow lines are the two-club-length extensions of the Relief Area to both sides and indicate the actual Relief Area.

 

Edited May 13 by Halebopp

[Mr. Bean]

It seems to me that you have understood the concept of a "funny-looking arc" rather well. 😂

 

What I have been referring to is that line from BRF, following orange line until blue line and finishing in FRP. That is the "funny-looking arc".

 

EDIT: If you are still confused, this entire concept of "arc" comes from the requirement of the text in E-5. No arc, no relief area. So one has to create an "arc" no matter what and that is what we have done by combining the BRP and FRP with a line described as the "funny-looking arc".

 

Got it?

 

Edited May 13 by Mr. Bean

[TroyB123]

Reading the rule again for the 30th time, because I seem to be pretty dense in understanding this, I think I may have mis-interpreted this portion.

Quote

Size of Relief Area Based on Reference Points: Anywhere between:

• A line from the hole through the ball reference point (and within two club-lengths to the outside of that line), and
• A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line).      

But with these limits:

• Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

Originally I though that required some weird arc that connects both reference points.   But now, I see that may mean you just use the fairway reference point to draw the line, and then once the line is drawn, it is irrelevant where the fairway reference point is on the line.  The relief area is just behind an arc drawn by putting a compass in the hole and BRP and drawing the arc until you hit the line that went through the FRP.  So from his diagram, anything in the general area within the yellow area is fine.

Edited May 13 by TroyB123

[Halebopp]

11 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

Reading the rule again for the 30th time, because I seem to be pretty dense in understanding this, I think I may have mis-interpreted this portion.

 

Originally I though that required some weird arc that connects both reference points.   But now, I see that may mean you just use the fairway reference point to draw the line, and then once the line is drawn, it is irrelevant where the fairway reference point is on the line.  The relief area is just behind an arc drawn by putting a compass in the hole and BRP and drawing the arc until you hit the line that went through the FRP.  So from his diagram, anything in the general area within the yellow area is fine.

 

Yes.

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 5/13/2024 at 11:03 AM, Halebopp said:

 

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. If point A is the Ball Reference Point that determines the equidistant arc from the hole, on or behind which the ball must be dropped. What is point B? The Fairway Reference Point only determines the other end point of the equidistant arc.

 

Red dot is the BRP, the orange circle is the equidistant arc from the hole, blue dot is the FRP on the nearest edge of a teeing ground and the yellow lines are the two-club-length extensions of the Relief Area to both sides and indicate the actual Relief Area.

 

 

This. Anywhere in the yellow and outside the orange circle is your relief area, with the exception obviously of inside the bunkers as those are not in the "general area". It would be silly to walk back to the forward tee when you could merely drop a ball 5 yards short of the green on the line between the forward teeing area and the pin just outside the orange circle. 

[nsxguy]

On 5/13/2024 at 2:26 PM, Mr. Bean said:

It seems to me that you have understood the concept of a "funny-looking arc" rather well. 😂

 

What I have been referring to is that line from BRF, following orange line until blue line and finishing in FRP. That is the "funny-looking arc".

 

EDIT: If you are still confused, this entire concept of "arc" comes from the requirement of the text in E-5. No arc, no relief area. So one has to create an "arc" no matter what and that is what we have done by combining the BRP and FRP with a line described as the "funny-looking arc".

 

Got it?

 

 

I see NO reference at all to an "arc" of any kind in E-5.

 

As Troy points out below all it says is "line(s)".

 

The confusion comes in because all 3 diagrams are using an "arc" (however slight).  But those arcs only depict an equal & minimum distance from the pin that one must maintain.

 

On 5/13/2024 at 5:05 PM, TroyB123 said:

Reading the rule again for the 30th time, because I seem to be pretty dense in understanding this, I think I may have mis-interpreted this portion.

 

Originally I though that required some weird arc that connects both reference points.   But now, I see that may mean you just use the fairway reference point to draw the line, and then once the line is drawn, it is irrelevant where the fairway reference point is on the line.  The relief area is just behind an arc drawn by putting a compass in the hole and BRP and drawing the arc until you hit the line that went through the FRP.  So from his diagram, anything in the general area within the yellow area is fine.

 

As you have now pointed out there is no need for an arc. I can't find the word "arc" in E-5 even though the diagrams imply it.

 

The circle around the pin, the radius from the pin to BRP, as I mentioned above, merely represents the minimum distance away from the pin the FRP may be. There is no maximum distance for the FRP, merely that it be ON the course, in the general area & on grass cut to fairway height.

I sent the USGA their own mocked-up diagram below. The important part of their reply was that the line between BRP and FRP did NOT have to be on any arc. It OFTEN/USUALLY is, as most E-5 drops occur between the tee and the green.

 

In addition to my text ("Fairway ENDS at the blue line") I specifically told them, in my mock-up of their diagram, there was NO fairway between the blue line and the green.

 

They confirmed the BLUE line, where "my" fairway ends was where the FRP should be, in this case, to the bottom of the blue line (out of pic).

 

Anyway, it appears my initial thought was correct. The circle/arc around the pin simply represents the minimum distance from the pin and from the point closest to the about-to-be FRP it veers to a straight line.

 

 

 

 

 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

I can't find the word "arc" in E-5 even though the diagrams imply it.

 

So, the following procedure from a club's Local Rules is nonsense?

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. 
Add two penalty strokes.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

So, the following procedure from a club's Local Rules is nonsense?

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. 
Add two penalty strokes.

 

Are you suggesting I said or implied such ?

 

Not nonsense at all - it just doesn't cover the specific, if not totally unique, situation of a ball lost or OB behind the green where there is NO fairway within the arc. So I expect there should be a "4)" 

 

ALL 3 of the USGA MLR E-5 diagrams for this situation imply an arc.

 

The issue brought up by Troy doesn't HAVE any fairway within said arc. IYO, should that mean ONLY S&D is available ?  

 

 

And btw @sui generis have you encountered any verbiage in E-5 that supports your view from earlier that there does not need to be a FRP ?

Edited May 15 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Are you suggesting I said or implied such ?

 

Not nonsense at all - it just doesn't cover the specific, if not totally unique, situation of a ball lost or OB behind the green where there is NO fairway within the arc. So I expect there should be a "4)" 

 

ALL 3 of the USGA MLR E-5 diagrams for this situation imply an arc.

 

The issue brought up by Troy doesn't HAVE any fairway within said arc. IYO, should that mean ONLY S&D is available ?  

 

Once you think about the requirement of "not closer to hole" you will understand that there has to be an arc.

 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Once you think about the requirement of "not closer to hole" you will understand that there has to be an arc.

 

 

So if you don't like the yellow arrow (anymore), how about the right "half" of the RED circle I added ? Does that fit your view of an "arc" for purposes of getting the FRP ?