Two identical balls.

[st1800e]

 

Player A’s tee shot on a dogleg left hole heads right toward an area of dense vegetation.
Not aware that the right side of the fairway is marked as a red penalty area, Player A announces intent to play a provisional ball which lands in the light rough on the right side of the fairway.
Player A finds both balls, one ball in the red penalty area under a bush and the other ball in the light rough outside the red penalty area.
Since both balls have identical markings, Player A is not able to determine which ball is the original ball and which ball is the provisional ball.

 

How should the player proceed and what’s the ruling/penalty? 
 

 

 

Edited Friday at 02:21 AM by st1800e

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, st1800e said:

 

Player A’s tee shot on a dogleg left hole heads right toward an area of dense vegetation.
Not aware that the right side of the fairway is marked as a red penalty area, Player A announces intent to play a provisional ball which lands in the light rough on the right side of the fairway.
Player A finds both balls, one ball in the red penalty area under a bush and the other ball in the light rough outside the red penalty area.
Since both balls have identical markings, Player A is not able to determine which ball is the original ball and which ball is the provisional ball.

 

How should the player proceed and what’s the ruling/penalty? 
 

 

 

 

I  won't swear to this but I believe the player can choose whichever ball he likes and it/he lies 3; i.e. just as if the 1st was lost and the provisional is now in play. 

[sui generis]

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=7&subrulenum=2

 

If a player’s provisional ball cannot be distinguished from their original ball, see Rule 18.3c(2).

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=18&subrulenum=3

 

 

Edited Friday at 03:16 AM by sui generis

[Augster]

From Rule 18.3:

 

“If both balls are found on the course, the player must choose one of the balls to be treated as the provisional ball which is now in play, and the other ball is treated as the original ball, which is no longer in play, and must not be played.”

 

So, in the given case of the OP, the player, most likely, will choose the ball outside the PA and be hitting his 4th. But he could choose the ball in the PA and be hitting 4 also. 
 

One of the rare occasions the player gets a choice between two balls. He’s paying S&D to do it, so there’s that. 

[st1800e]

Agreed those are the applicable rules.   
However, how is a player to know that the 2 balls are the 2 balls he actually played if there is no identifying mark?  Could be an identical ball lost by another player at another time? 

[davep043]

48 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Agreed those are the applicable rules.   
However, how is a player to know that the 2 balls are the 2 balls he actually played if there is no identifying mark?  Could be an identical ball lost by another player at another time? 

From 7.2, a ball can be identified by:

"By finding a ball with the same brand, model, number and condition as the player’s ball in an area where the player’s ball is expected to be, but this does not apply if an identical ball is in the same area and there is no way to know which one is the player’s ball."

If there was a THIRD identical ball in the area, you might have a point, but if there are only two balls, its reasonable to determine that they both belong to the Player.

[Mike_C]

Should never happen, always mark your ball......

[jacob7071]

This happened to my FC at a tournament a few years back.  Tee shot on hole 1 went right into the trees.  Provisional with different markings also went right.  2nd provisional with same markings as the first ball went right.  FC said, "we'll surely find one of those."  We found the 1st and 3rd with identical markings.  One had bounced into the fairway with a clear shot to the green.  The other was in the trees with a gap to punch out close to or on the green - probably bogey at worst.  Instead, he's laying 5 from the fairway and ends up with a 9.  Tough way to learn that lesson.  

[Imp]

59 minutes ago, Mike_C said:

Should never happen, always mark your ball......

There are people that will insist they don't have to, they know what they are playing.... 

[nsxguy]

This topic brought to mind finding a 2nd ball in the same area and not being able to differentiate one from the other.

 

So if I pull my drive into the left rough and, upon getting to that area, find a 2nd ball, NOT a provisional I hit, that I cannot differentiate from my tee ball, what do I do then ?

 

Strangely enough, about a year ago a player in my 4-some had a ball with the identical marking I put on mine. I'd lost one a few weeks earlier. I asked the guy about the ball and he told me he found it a couple of weeks earlier in the general area I'd lost mine. It was almost certainly the one I'd lost.

 

Anyway, if he hadn't picked it up and I hit my tee shot into the same general area on that same hole and found both my tee ball and my lost ball from that prior round, what do I do then ?

 

Googling it sent me to Rule 18, covering a provisional & not being able to differentiate but that wasn't the case here.

 

So is it same-same ? Pick one of them & I lie 3 ?

 

TIA

[Augster]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

This topic brought to mind finding a 2nd ball in the same area and not being able to differentiate one from the other.

 

So if I pull my drive into the left rough and, upon getting to that area, find a 2nd ball, NOT a provisional I hit, that I cannot differentiate from my tee ball, what do I do then ?

 

Strangely enough, about a year ago a player in my 4-some had a ball with the identical marking I put on mine. I'd lost one a few weeks earlier. I asked the guy about the ball and he told me he found it a couple of weeks earlier in the general area I'd lost mine. It was almost certainly the one I'd lost.

 

Anyway, if he hadn't picked it up and I hit my tee shot into the same general area on that same hole and found both my tee ball and my lost ball from that prior round, what do I do then ?

 

Googling it sent me to Rule 18, covering a provisional & not being able to differentiate but that wasn't the case here.

 

So is it same-same ? Pick one of them & I lie 3 ?

 

TIA

If you didn’t hit a provisional ball, you know absolutely that one of those balls is not yours. Because you can’t ID your ball, it’s S&D or E-5. 

[Newby]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Anyway, if he hadn't picked it up and I hit my tee shot into the same general area on that same hole and found both my tee ball and my lost ball from that prior round, what do I do then ?

 

So is it same-same ? Pick one of them & I lie 3 ?

 

TIA

You say you found the ball you played from the tee. ie you identified it so that's the one you must play.

 

If in fact you didn't know which your 'tee ball' was, then Augster's answer is correct (only if E-5 was in force)

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

You say you found the ball you played from the tee. ie you identified it so that's the one you must play.

 

If in fact you didn't know which your 'tee ball' was, then Augster's answer is correct (only if E-5 was in force)

 

I said "and found both my tee ball and my lost ball from that prior round".

 

They were identical. Sorry for not stating such but I guess I thought their being identical was a given (else why mention the incident at all ?).

 

So, just like the provisional, even in this case, it's "pick one and it lies 3". 

 

Doesn't seem very fair but I guess dem's da breaks, eh ? 

[Augster]

It’s not pick one, you lie 3. Not at all. One is your ball in play and one is an outside agency that happens to look, and marked, exactly like your ball. 
 

Since NEITHER were a provisional ball, and you CANNOT ID which of the two is your ball in play, your only option is S&D, lost ball. (Or E-5 if available)

 

 

[nsxguy]

36 minutes ago, Augster said:

It’s not pick one, you lie 3. Not at all. One is your ball in play and one is an outside agency that happens to look, and marked, exactly like your ball. 
 

Since NEITHER were a provisional ball, and you CANNOT ID which of the two is your ball in play, your only option is S&D, lost ball. (Or E-5 if available)

 

 

 

OK, still doesn't seem very fair, especially given the similar circumstance of having played a provisional, finding both balls are identical, and picking one and playing one's 4th shot.

 

But then, life isn't fair. 

 

Did have a similar circumstance a long time ago. I and another player both striped one down the middle to a fairway that was out of sight.

 

We get there to discover the 2 balls about 5 yards apart and then discover we both played the same ball; NO markings. And we both had to trudge back to the tee taking S&D.

 

What ev. Thanks.

[antip]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I said "and found both my tee ball and my lost ball from that prior round".

 

They were identical. Sorry for not stating such but I guess I thought their being identical was a given (else why mention the incident at all ?).

 

So, just like the provisional, even in this case, it's "pick one and it lies 3". 

 

Doesn't seem very fair but I guess dem's da breaks, eh ? 

Augster has it right, you must do S&D. See Rule 7.2 and the third bullet point specifically.

[nsxguy]

56 minutes ago, antip said:

Augster has it right, you must do S&D. See Rule 7.2 and the third bullet point specifically.

 

I got it. I agree.

 

Although I really don't see why one situation should be handled differently as they're virtually identical.

 

Hit one ball. Hit provisional. Get there and they're both the same. Pick whichever one you want and you're hitting 4.

 

Hit one ball. Get there and find 2 and they're both the same. Go back to the tee and hit your 3rd shot.

 

Yes, I GET one is a lost ball situation and the other is not.

 

But the 2020 Rules were revamped to make things easier to understand, more forgiving to the golfers and to save time, but here you need to go back to the tee and in the other case, we're good, just pick one and let's move along.

 

Oh well.

[Mr. Bean]

On 6/28/2024 at 5:19 AM, st1800e said:

 

Player A’s tee shot on a dogleg left hole heads right toward an area of dense vegetation.
Not aware that the right side of the fairway is marked as a red penalty area, Player A announces intent to play a provisional ball which lands in the light rough on the right side of the fairway.
Player A finds both balls, one ball in the red penalty area under a bush and the other ball in the light rough outside the red penalty area.
Since both balls have identical markings, Player A is not able to determine which ball is the original ball and which ball is the provisional ball.

 

How should the player proceed and what’s the ruling/penalty? 
 

 

I am slightly confused.

 

If he SAW that his provisional landed in the light rough and his original in the dense vegetation and then he finds both ball in those particular areas, doesn't he KNOW which ball is which by the location of those two balls?

 

If not and he actually did NOT see the areas accurately THEN the answers given by others are of course correct, he would be lying 3 and may choose whichever ball he wishes.

[Mr. Bean]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I got it. I agree.

 

Although I really don't see why one situation should be handled differently as they're virtually identical.

 

Hit one ball. Hit provisional. Get there and they're both the same. Pick whichever one you want and you're hitting 4.

 

Hit one ball. Get there and find 2 and they're both the same. Go back to the tee and hit your 3rd shot.

 

Yes, I GET one is a lost ball situation and the other is not.

 

But the 2020 Rules were revamped to make things easier to understand, more forgiving to the golfers and to save time, but here you need to go back to the tee and in the other case, we're good, just pick one and let's move along.

 

Oh well.

 

It is very unfortunate if you happen to hit a well-marked ball into the same area where you rather recently lost an identical ball. I bet the RBs did not take this scenario as the leading thought when drafting those Rules so you just need to take your medicine (unless you are able to distinguish those two identical balls by their conditions).

 

Afa distinguishing the original ball and the provisional ball there is a solid procedure to make sure it is not a problem. Mark those two balls differently. Problem solved.

[antip]

37 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I got it. I agree.

 

Although I really don't see why one situation should be handled differently as they're virtually identical.

 

Hit one ball. Hit provisional. Get there and they're both the same. Pick whichever one you want and you're hitting 4.

 

Hit one ball. Get there and find 2 and they're both the same. Go back to the tee and hit your 3rd shot.

 

Yes, I GET one is a lost ball situation and the other is not.

 

But the 2020 Rules were revamped to make things easier to understand, more forgiving to the golfers and to save time, but here you need to go back to the tee and in the other case, we're good, just pick one and let's move along.

 

Oh well.

For me, they are very different scenarios. In one, both balls represent the player's actions and decisions. In the other, it makes no sense to me to authorise the player to choose something that had nothing to do with the player's own play and that could be substantially better or worse random influences.

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, antip said:

For me, they are very different scenarios. In one, both balls represent the player's actions and decisions. In the other, it makes no sense to me to authorise the player to choose something that had nothing to do with the player's own play and that could be substantially better or worse random influences.

 

Well, I understand your point but I don't see them as that different.

 

In the "provisional ball" case, the player did hit BOTH balls "crooked" BUT gets to choose one.

 

In the "one ball" case, he only hit ONE ball, obviously "found" it but doesn't get to choose even though he didn't hit the other ball there. A fluke if you will.

 

Hardly matters (to me) whether it's better or worse as, if the 2nd identical ball was NOT there, I'd be hitting my second shot. Instead I have to be hitting 3 off the tee no less, and who knows where that could end up ?

 

So, because of a flukey(?) occurrence, it's costing me (at least) 2 strokes for a ball slightly off the fairway.

 

As it is, IF I could pick either one and be laying 3, I'd STILL feel unjustly punished - but at least I get to play one of them and wouldn't have to go back to the tee and waste all that time OR possibly hit my 3rd shot OB or worse. 

 

And play would keep moving.

[antip]

55 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, I understand your point but I don't see them as that different.

 

In the "provisional ball" case, the player did hit BOTH balls "crooked" BUT gets to choose one.

 

In the "one ball" case, he only hit ONE ball, obviously "found" it but doesn't get to choose even though he didn't hit the other ball there. A fluke if you will.

 

Hardly matters (to me) whether it's better or worse as, if the 2nd identical ball was NOT there, I'd be hitting my second shot. Instead I have to be hitting 3 off the tee no less, and who knows where that could end up ?

 

So, because of a flukey(?) occurrence, it's costing me (at least) 2 strokes for a ball slightly off the fairway.

 

As it is, IF I could pick either one and be laying 3, I'd STILL feel unjustly punished - but at least I get to play one of them and wouldn't have to go back to the tee and waste all that time OR possibly hit my 3rd shot OB or worse. 

 

And play would keep moving.

No problem with different opinions about how the rules should be set up. But it makes zero sense to me to permit a player to continue with someone else's ball for a minor convenience factor. 

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, I understand your point but I don't see them as that different.

 

 

 

They are different as I explained earlier. You are allowed (and even advicede) to mark your provisional ball differently from your original. So they are VERY different as you are solely to blame if you do not follow that advice but it is bad luck if you hit your ball off the fairway close to another of your balls you lost some time before.

[Augster]

They are very different. In the one case, the player HIT two identical balls to the same area during THAT round on the playing of THAT hole. 
 

In the other case, most likely, someone found that ball as a previous lost ball, wandered around with it for a week, or a month, in their bag, then played that hole the day before and lost it in that area. 
 

And the player should get a choice between THOSE two balls just because they are marked the same? The other ball was lost by someone else. It’s someone else’s lost ball. 
 

It’s certainly bad luck, but it’s covered by the Rules pretty well.