How to determine yardage correctly after someone outside your group plays your ball by accident?

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

So yesterday I had an issue I've never faced before. And I don't know if it was handled correctly. It led to an argument from 2 guys in my group cause money was on the line. What happened was we are on a par 5. On the right side of the fairway is a par 3 and just about another 200 yards down more is a par 4. I drive my ball dead straight down fairway. Saw it land and roll forward. I marked my ball with an obscene gesture in red. I'm 100% confident I'm good and in the fairway. The guy I'm riding with goes deep left, the other 2 goes right. We go to his ball and there happens to be a hill blocking the view of the fairway and green. So we can't see anything beyond the hill. Other 2 guys hit there balls from the right rough. Go to my ball and its gone nowhere to be found on the fairway. The others start questioning whether it even landed in the fairway and was actually in the rough. We start looking and looking. We find a ball on the right side of the rough that is shared with the par 4 going the opposite direction. But its not my ball. The other group mention that they saw a guy hit from our fairway hitting back into there par 4 hole. And I asked why didn't you say something that was my ball. They responded back by saying we don't know if that was your ball. My friend and I approach the guys on the par 4 green. And I can see my ball set up on the green. I asked if that was really his ball. He takes a quick glance at it acting surprise that its not his ball. I showed him the ball I have and he said its his. I asked him how far he was to the pin when he hit my ball off the fairway. He said around 185 yards but he didn't use a scope. He used his gps on the cart. So its not 100% accurate. But its close. I then go back to my par 5 fairway. I explain to the other 2 guys that he was around 185 yards to there par 4 pin using the gps on there cart. Then from there I scoped to my pin and got 178 yards. The others said no way thats right. They questioned whether I drove a 330 yards. Mind you guys there is about 25mph tailwind. We kept going back and forth with the other 2 guys. While trying to plead my case with the help of my friend 10 minutes have passed and now holding up the course. Because they didn't believe that I took correct distance to drop my ball. Out of anger and frustration I said F it. I'll move it back 30 yards just to make you guys happy. Then they said that's not correct. Then out of anger I blow up and asked them how the f*** do you want me to do this then? We are backing the course up now. I will drop the ball back 30 yards, STFU. Hit my ball and ended the hole. I felt like what I did was correct by asking how far the other guy was from his pin from my fairway. Then going back to my fairway and scope the pins to get my distance. Was the way I did it the correct way to determine the correct yardage? Or is there a different way that I don't know within the rules?

[Colin L]

The way to do it  is to make your best estimate of where your ball had been lying  with at the most the help of others.  Where you play from doesn't require the approval of anyone else.  If another player thinks you got it seriously wrong, they can take it up with the committee after the round. If your marker thinks that way, he or she can decline to sign your card and it's then down to the committee to adjudicate.

[davep043]

Follow Rule 1.3b(2), use your best judgement using all information readily available.  It sounds like you did that, and then moved further back, possibly a "Wrong Place".  Or call it a "conservative estimate", which is fair, taking into account both the GPS yardage and the comments of your playing partners.    

[Newby]

You are simply required to make your best estimate of where the ball originally lay. If anyone objects they should take it up with the committee later.

See 14.2c

Edited Friday at 02:20 PM by Newby

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Take it up with the committee? This was not a tournament round. Just a regular round with a bunch of friends.

[rogolf]

You have to gather all of the information regarding another player playing your ball within three minutes of beginning to search for that ball.  If three minutes have elapsed, the ball is lost and stroke and distance is the only option.

[Imp]

Rule listed above doesn't change how much of a jerk your friends were. Estimate. Drop. Move on. Settle over beers.

 

19 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Take it up with the committee? This was not a tournament round. Just a regular round with a bunch of friends.

[nsxguy]

39 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

So yesterday I had an issue I've never faced before. And I don't know if it was handled correctly. It led to an argument from 2 guys in my group cause money was on the line. What happened was we are on a par 5. On the right side of the fairway is a par 3 and just about another 200 yards down more is a par 4. I drive my ball dead straight down fairway. Saw it land and roll forward. I marked my ball with an obscene gesture in red. I'm 100% confident I'm good and in the fairway. The guy I'm riding with goes deep left, the other 2 goes right. We go to his ball and there happens to be a hill blocking the view of the fairway and green. So we can't see anything beyond the hill. Other 2 guys hit there balls from the right rough. Go to my ball and its gone nowhere to be found on the fairway. The others start questioning whether it even landed in the fairway and was actually in the rough. We start looking and looking. We find a ball on the right side of the rough that is shared with the par 4 going the opposite direction. But its not my ball. The other group mention that they saw a guy hit from our fairway hitting back into there par 4 hole. And I asked why didn't you say something that was my ball. They responded back by saying we don't know if that was your ball. My friend and I approach the guys on the par 4 green. And I can see my ball set up on the green. I asked if that was really his ball. He takes a quick glance at it acting surprise that its not his ball. I showed him the ball I have and he said its his. I asked him how far he was to the pin when he hit my ball off the fairway. He said around 185 yards but he didn't use a scope. He used his gps on the cart. So its not 100% accurate. But its close. I then go back to my par 5 fairway. I explain to the other 2 guys that he was around 185 yards to there par 4 pin using the gps on there cart. Then from there I scoped to my pin and got 178 yards. The others said no way thats right. They questioned whether I drove a 330 yards. Mind you guys there is about 25mph tailwind. We kept going back and forth with the other 2 guys. While trying to plead my case with the help of my friend 10 minutes have passed and now holding up the course. Because they didn't believe that I took correct distance to drop my ball. Out of anger and frustration I said F it. I'll move it back 30 yards just to make you guys happy. Then they said that's not correct. Then out of anger I blow up and asked them how the f*** do you want me to do this then? We are backing the course up now. I will drop the ball back 30 yards, STFU. Hit my ball and ended the hole. I felt like what I did was correct by asking how far the other guy was from his pin from my fairway. Then going back to my fairway and scope the pins to get my distance. Was the way I did it the correct way to determine the correct yardage? Or is there a different way that I don't know within the rules?

 

Sorry if I missed something in the story as I can't get myself to read through such a long "paragraph" but what did your "friends" suggest you do ?

 

"No way it was there" doesn't sound all that friendly to me. 

 

As others have already said, one clearly uses all available information and estimates where the ball should be. /end

[rogolf]

26 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

As others have already said, one clearly uses all available information and estimates where the ball should be. /end

It sure sounds like more than three minutes elapsed since the start of the search for the ball.  Lost ball, return to tee.

[Augster]

Take all available information, Estimate where it was, PLACE the ball, and play the hole. Everyone needs to stop saying “drop”. 
 

Because you dropped, the ball was played from a wrong place. Take your 2 stroke penalty in stroke play. Take your partners score (LOH for you)if it was match play. 
 

From 9.6:
 

“The ball must be REPLACED on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).”

 

“Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Rule 9.6: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.”

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

You have to gather all of the information regarding another player playing your ball within three minutes of beginning to search for that ball.  If three minutes have elapsed, the ball is lost and stroke and distance is the only option.

 

59 minutes ago, rogolf said:

It sure sounds like more than three minutes elapsed since the start of the search for the ball.  Lost ball, return to tee.

 

The player has KVC (actually K) that it was moved by an outside influence, so rule 9.6 should apply. I don't see any 3-minute limit referenced anywhere in rule 9.6 or the clarifications. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

It sure sounds like more than three minutes elapsed since the start of the search for the ball.  Lost ball, return to tee.

 

I hate that you made me read through that post again but,,,,,,

 

"Go to my ball and its gone nowhere to be found on the fairway. The others start questioning whether it even landed in the fairway and was actually in the rough. We start looking and looking. We find a ball on the right side of the rough that is shared with the par 4 going the opposite direction. But its not my ball. The other group mention that they saw a guy hit from our fairway hitting back into there par 4 hole. And I asked why didn't you say something that was my ball. They responded back by saying we don't know if that was your ball. My friend and I approach the guys on the par 4 green".

 

I'll grant that it "sounds" like you may be right but let me ask you then.

 

We know that a search may be interrupted and restarted for good reason(s). (Clarification 18.2a(1)/1 - "However, there are situations when the “clock stops” and such time does not count towards the player’s three minutes.")

 

Assuming, for the moment the 3 minutes had not expired once the OP was told by the "other group" that they'd seen "a guy" hitting from the middle of his fairway, wouldn't that have "stopped the clock" while the OP went to ask that guy what happened ?

 

Edited to add - Sorry, didn't see your earlier post that basically admits the search could be interrupted.

Edited Friday at 04:08 PM by nsxguy

[rogolf]

31 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I hate that you made me read through that post again but,,,,,,

 

"Go to my ball and its gone nowhere to be found on the fairway. The others start questioning whether it even landed in the fairway and was actually in the rough. We start looking and looking. We find a ball on the right side of the rough that is shared with the par 4 going the opposite direction. But its not my ball. The other group mention that they saw a guy hit from our fairway hitting back into there par 4 hole. And I asked why didn't you say something that was my ball. They responded back by saying we don't know if that was your ball. My friend and I approach the guys on the par 4 green".

 

I'll grant that it "sounds" like you may be right but let me ask you then.

 

We know that a search may be interrupted and restarted for good reason(s). (Clarification 18.2a(1)/1 - "However, there are situations when the “clock stops” and such time does not count towards the player’s three minutes.")

 

Assuming, for the moment the 3 minutes had not expired once the OP was told by the "other group" that they'd seen "a guy" hitting from the middle of his fairway, wouldn't that have "stopped the clock" while the OP went to ask that guy what happened ?

 

Edited to add - Sorry, didn't see your earlier post that basically admits the search could be interrupted.

I didn't say anything about the search time being interrupted?  However, the definition of "lost" does say that it can be interrupted "for a good reason", such as when play is suspended or letting a group play through.  Gathering information, imo, is not a "good reason".

See the clarification for Known or Virtually Certain/2, titled "Virtually Certainty Is Irrelevant If It Comes to Light After Three-Minute Search Expires".

And also see "Known or Virtually Certain/3", "Player Unaware Ball Played by Another Player".

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I didn't say anything about the search time being interrupted?  However, the definition of "lost" does say that it can be interrupted "for a good reason", such as when play is suspended or letting a group play through.  Gathering information, imo, is not a "good reason".

See the clarification for Known or Virtually Certain/2, titled "Virtually Certainty Is Irrelevant If It Comes to Light After Three-Minute Search Expires".

And also see "Known or Virtually Certain/3", "Player Unaware Ball Played by Another Player".

 

I didn't SAY you said anything about search interrupted.

 

You said "It sure sounds like more than three minutes elapsed since the start of the search for the ball.  Lost ball, return to tee"

 

I actually agreed with you that it "sounded" like it AND *I* brought up the question/possibility of the search time being suspended.

 

So you seem to be implying if this was a tournament and you were the official on site you would have told the player his ball was lost since it wasn't found within 3 minutes.

 

Since YOU brought up KVC, it says, in part,

 

"The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.

 

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:

 

There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen"

 

So since I was suggesting the search time might(?) be suspended, YOUR KVC2 is irrelevant if the search time IS suspended.

 

KVC3 also doesn't apply since he had reasonable KVC under the "other witnesses saw it happen", even though they weren't sure exactly what happened.

 

But IMO, *I*, would suggest there IS good reason, and reasonable evidence to suspend the clock and find out what happened - without unduly holding up play of course. 

 

YMODV

 

 

 

[rogolf]

Yes, my ruling in the situation described in the original post would be that the ball is lost because the search (and information gathering) time had expired, and the player must proceed under stroke and distance.

"unduly holding up play on the course" is not a factor in applying the Rules of golf.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

Yes, my ruling in the situation described in the original post would be that the ball is lost because the search (and information gathering) time had expired, and the player must proceed under stroke and distance.

 

OK then.

 

Thanks. 

 

But tell me this. Is it correct that, once you, an official, have ruled, I have no recourse ?

 

i.e. I am NOT permitted to play 2 balls and take the situation to the committee after the round ???

Edited Friday at 10:40 PM by nsxguy

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

Yes, my ruling in the situation described in the original post would be that the ball is lost because the search (and information gathering) time had expired, and the player must proceed under stroke and distance.

"unduly holding up play on the course" is not a factor in applying the Rules of golf.

 

Would it not be natural, if say the ball search had only taken 2 1/2 minutes, that once the potential for outside influence is raised and I investicate it, it stops the clock? 

 

I.e. if I'm looking for a ball and someone from the other group says "I think my buddy might have hit that ball" and that buddy is now 185 yards away near the green, I'm going to immediately suspend the search to determine if an outside influence was involved. Obviously I'm not "searching" for a ball if I'm walking to another green to figure out if someone not paying attention hit the wrong ball. 

 

Would it be any different if I was in a tournament and learned after 2 1/2 minutes that an outside influence MIGHT have moved my ball and instead I say "I'm suspending the search pending the arrival of a rules official?"

 

At what point does "3 minutes" become inviolable, and at what point is it interruptible? 

[rogolf]

59 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Would it not be natural, if say the ball search had only taken 2 1/2 minutes, that once the potential for outside influence is raised and I investicate it, it stops the clock? 

 

I.e. if I'm looking for a ball and someone from the other group says "I think my buddy might have hit that ball" and that buddy is now 185 yards away near the green, I'm going to immediately suspend the search to determine if an outside influence was involved. Obviously I'm not "searching" for a ball if I'm walking to another green to figure out if someone not paying attention hit the wrong ball. 

 

Would it be any different if I was in a tournament and learned after 2 1/2 minutes that an outside influence MIGHT have moved my ball and instead I say "I'm suspending the search pending the arrival of a rules official?"

 

At what point does "3 minutes" become inviolable, and at what point is it interruptible? 

Imo, the time spent by the player chasing down the other group is part of the search time - he is still searching for his original ball.  The fact that another player MAY have played it doesn't stop the search clock, again, imo.

 

Here are the Clarifications for Known or Virtually Certain that are pertinent:

Known or Virtually Certain/2 – Virtual Certainty Is Irrelevant if It Comes to Light After Three-Minute Search Expires

When searching for a ball under a Rule that uses the knowledge or virtual certainty standard (such as Rule 17.1d), determining whether there is knowledge or virtual certainty must be based on evidence known to the player at the time the three-minute search time expires.

Examples of when the player’s later findings are irrelevant include when:

• A player’s tee shot comes to rest in an area containing heavy rough and a large animal hole. After a three-minute search, it is determined that it is not known or virtually certain that the ball is in the animal hole. As the player returns to the teeing area, the ball is found in the animal hole.

  Even though the player has not yet put another ball in play, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief for a lost ball (Rule 18.2b – What to Do When Ball is Lost or Out of Bounds) since it was not known or virtually certain that the ball was in the animal hole, when the search time expired.

• A player cannot find their ball and believes it may have been picked up by a spectator (outside influence), but there is not enough evidence to be virtually certain of this. A short time after the three-minute search time expires, a spectator is found to have the player’s ball.

  The player must take stroke-and-distance relief for a lost ball (Rule 18.2b) since the movement by the outside influence only became known after the search time expired.

Known or Virtually Certain/3 – Player Unaware Ball Played by Another Player

It must be known or virtually certain that a player’s ball has been played by another player as a wrong ball to treat it as being moved.

For example, in stroke play, Player A and Player B hit their tee shots into the same general location. Player A finds a ball and plays it. Player B goes forward to look for their ball and cannot find it. After three minutes, Player B starts back to the tee to play another ball. On the way, Player B finds Player A’s ball and knows then that Player A has played their ball in error.

Player A gets the general penalty for playing a wrong ball and must then play their own ball (Rule 6.3c). Player A’s ball was not lost even though both players searched for more than three minutes because Player A did not start searching for their ball; the searching was for Player B’s ball. Regarding Player B’s ball, Player B’s original ball was lost and they must put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.2b), because it was not known or virtually certain when the three-minute search time expired that the ball had been played by another player.

Edited yesterday at 12:07 AM by rogolf

[Augster]

If the player can SEE the ball lying 185 yards away on the other green, he has plenty of time to ID that ball. As long as his visual of that ball happened inside his 3 minute search. 
 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

53 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Imo, the time spent by the player chasing down the other group is part of the search time - he is still searching for his original ball.  The fact that another player MAY have played it doesn't stop the search clock, again, imo.

 

 

But would that time not be an appropriate interruption of the search? Player is no longer searching for his ball. Player is waiting on a fact finding mission for an unrelated rule. It doesn't seem that different from the accepted interruption of a search for an alternate group to play. It's time not spent searching for the ball because of an intervening event. 

 

Likewise, the second question. Player says "I'm stopping the search for my ball to ask for an interpretation of a rules official", with the intent of figuring out how to handle the new information that someone else may have hit his ball. Is THAT not a valid interruption of the search? If so, how does it differ from the above? 

 

I get it via KVC/2 that if 3 minutes have already elapsed, sadly, the player has no recourse. But if 3 minutes have not... It seems unnecessarily punitive to not allow a player to suspend/interrupt a search when they need that time to determine if another rule takes precedence. Assuming obviously that neither the player nor his caddie nor anyone else actually continue searching in the interim...

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

But would that time not be an appropriate interruption of the search? Player is no longer searching for his ball. Player is waiting on a fact finding mission for an unrelated rule. It doesn't seem that different from the accepted interruption of a search for an alternate group to play. It's time not spent searching for the ball because of an intervening event. 

 

Likewise, the second question. Player says "I'm stopping the search for my ball to ask for an interpretation of a rules official", with the intent of figuring out how to handle the new information that someone else may have hit his ball. Is THAT not a valid interruption of the search? If so, how does it differ from the above? 

 

I get it via KVC/2 that if 3 minutes have already elapsed, sadly, the player has no recourse. But if 3 minutes have not... It seems unnecessarily punitive to not allow a player to suspend/interrupt a search when they need that time to determine if another rule takes precedence. Assuming obviously that neither the player nor his caddie nor anyone else actually continue searching in the interim...

I've given my opinions, and the way I would rule in the original posting.  Again, imo, the Rules do not consider gathering additional information about the outcome of the original ball to be a good reason for stopping the three minute search time clock.

Feel free to ask the USGA.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:32 AM, nsxguy said:

 

Sorry if I missed something in the story as I can't get myself to read through such a long "paragraph" but what did your "friends" suggest you do ?

 

"No way it was there" doesn't sound all that friendly to me. 

 

As others have already said, one clearly uses all available information and estimates where the ball should be. /end

I apologize for the long run on paragraph. That is a definite strain to the eye. They didn't suggest anything after I was done speaking with the group on the par 4 green. They just said that can't be right.  I think what got to them was the so called 330 yard drive. Typically I drive 270'ish and they know that. But we have spoke about it. And they know they are in the wrong now in the sense that they knew they were not helpful at all with the situation.

Edited 5 hours ago by I'_rather_be_golfing

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Thank you guys. Just from my situation I have learned a lot. This is the type of thing I need to learn and understand. 

[davep043]

19 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I apologize for the long run on paragraph. That is a definite strain to the eye.

Yeah, its tough to deal with the internet-age short attention spans (including mine).  I think you got an answer to the question in the title (how do I determine where to place after the ball is moved by an Outside Influence).  In addition, those who read the entire thing brought out the more important thing, that you almost certainly didn't identify your ball within the 3-minute search window, so you really should have been back on the tee under Stroke and Distance for lost ball.

[nsxguy]

21 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I apologize for the long run on paragraph. That is a definite strain to the eye. They didn't suggest anything after I was done speaking with the group on the par 4 green. They just said that can't be right.  I think what got to them was the so called 330 yard drive. Typically I drive 270'ish and they know that. But we have spoke about it. And they know they are in the wrong now. 

 

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Yeah, its tough to deal with the internet-age short attention spans (including mine).  I think you got an answer to the question in the title (how do I determine where to place after the ball is moved by an Outside Influence).  In addition, those who read the entire thing brought out the more important thing, that you almost certainly didn't identify your ball within the 3-minute search window, so you really should have been back on the tee under Stroke and Distance for lost ball.

 

I think, but cannot be sure of course, the problem with the run-on paragraphs is that most(?) of these occur when the poster is on their PHONE - which apparently a LOT of people do.

 

I seldom use my phone to "internet" anything. But on the rare occasions where I have used it, either for posting or texting, was 2-fold.

 

1st was/is(?) the "Return" key on the phone's "keyboard". In early days it was also the "Enter" key. So if one is typing one's post and hits the "enter" key, the text/post would be posted/sent immediately/too early.

 

Doesn't take too many of those mistakes to "train" the user and make it a habit.

 

So now that the return/enter functionality has progressed, many of us keep ignoring it and keep typing til we're done.

 

The other is voice-to-text, which has gotten SO much better since its inception. It self-corrects in many cases and one can "v-t-t" "commands as well; such as "period" (to enter a period, not type the word "period), "comma", "exclamation point", even some emojis.

 

And (at least on iPhone), one can create a new line by saying "new line". Do it twice and you've created a new paragraph.

 

Better still, iPhone recognizes "New paragraph" as a command and works exactly the same as 2 "New Line" commands. i.e. go to a new line, then do it again, leaving a blank line.

 

I would expect Android works similarly. With "computers", new functionality rarely stays new very long. 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

47 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

I think, but cannot be sure of course, the problem with the run-on paragraphs is that most(?) of these occur when the poster is on their PHONE - which apparently a LOT of people do.

 

I seldom use my phone to "internet" anything. But on the rare occasions where I have used it, either for posting or texting, was 2-fold.

 

1st was/is(?) the "Return" key on the phone's "keyboard". In early days it was also the "Enter" key. So if one is typing one's post and hits the "enter" key, the text/post would be posted/sent immediately/too early.

 

Doesn't take too many of those mistakes to "train" the user and make it a habit.

 

So now that the return/enter functionality has progressed, many of us keep ignoring it and keep typing til we're done.

 

The other is voice-to-text, which has gotten SO much better since its inception. It self-corrects in many cases and one can "v-t-t" "commands as well; such as "period" (to enter a period, not type the word "period), "comma", "exclamation point", even some emojis.

 

And (at least on iPhone), one can create a new line by saying "new line". Do it twice and you've created a new paragraph.

 

Better still, iPhone recognizes "New paragraph" as a command and works exactly the same as 2 "New Line" commands. i.e. go to a new line, then do it again, leaving a blank line.

 

I would expect Android works similarly. With "computers", new functionality rarely stays new very long. 

Yes you are correct I was on my phone.