Lie angles......and the people who are clueless.

[mac94]

[quote name='yoshiod9' date='06 May 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1273161751' post='2425056']
[quote name='mac94' date='04 May 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1273023177' post='2421588']
What do you mean by "marked" improvement? Is it going to take you from a 9hcp to a 5? No. But incremental improvements, which is what this is, is how equipment makes a difference.
[/quote]

A marked improvement, with regards to putting, would be if I suddenly started to one putt every green... Does having a proper lie change how well I putt? No. I still putt well with a putter that isn't properly fit to me (my mini copper gamer).

How can you measure an incremental improvement? You miss putts by a fraction of an inch less? It's a silly argument, really. People adjust their strokes to fit their equipment all the time (aim a bit higher or lower than the hole, hit strokes more off of the heel or toe, etc.). Does it look pretty? Does it work?
[/quote]

It's not a silly argument at all. You are simp0ly misunderstanding it.

[Pepperturbo]

I am not aware of the skill level of the OP. Sure it's helpful if fit for a putter; but the putter is the only club in the bag where without being fit pretty much anyone can roll the ball in the cup. Steve Striker is partial to toe down, Isao Aoki has had a long successful career with the toe up, and for the longest time Billy Mayfair slice putted. Ya think some guy stood near by on teh putting green wondering why they don't get fit for a putter.

PS; bet there are a slew of posters on this board that don't who that golfer is with the toe up.

[moonshine]

[b]no need to get sand in your crotch.[/b]

To the op, you seem like a nice guy....not. You really should check the use of the word retarded, your posts so far point in your direction!

I have had a few putting lessons, and specifically worked on making my putter flat with my stroke. I do agree the putter should be flat, but that is just me and my perfection...

[NicholasP]

[quote name='MP60dude' date='06 May 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1273182950' post='2425770']
[b]no need to get sand in your crotch.[/b]

To the op, you seem like a nice guy....not. You really should check the use of the word retarded, your posts so far point in your direction!

I have had a few putting lessons, and specifically worked on making my putter flat with my stroke. I do agree the putter should be flat, but that is just me and my perfection...
[/quote]

Agreed, the usage of the word retarded is really inappropriate and unacceptable on a forum like this. Try acting you are slightly educated next time you decide to post something.

[indyvai]

I understand the point made by the OP, Ryan, and I completely understand. It bothers me when people set up extremely toe up or toe down... but that's just because they are not as serious about golf as us on-line enthusiasts... my brother is severely heel up... I say nothing. My buddy is toe up, and I correct him... he appreciates it.

The fact is, the Golf world we live in has fitting and customization as key factors in choosing gear. Anybody who buys new equipment most likely has that technology available to them. And chances are... if someone is toe or heel up... there is something wrong with their set-up... even if they can perform adequately...

Oh yeah... Pelz is pretty friggin great if you see past all the ... definitely good things to take from understanding his research...

[harold baines]

maybe you should spend more time practicing your own putting and less time staring at other people's equipment

[scotchblade]

[quote name='indyvai' date='07 May 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1273244712' post='2427100']
The fact is, the Golf world we live in has fitting and customization as key factors in choosing gear.
[/quote]
More like [b]selling[/b] gear. The golf world I've witnessed over the past 35 years has always come up with products, tips, even magical bracelets which promise to improve your game and lower scores. Now we have the computer age with it's impressive analysis of your swing, or, in this case, putting stroke.

Promises, promises, why do I believe?

Other than a highly skilled player looking to fine tune their game and gain whatever edge they can, I don't see how tweaking lie and loft a few degrees will make any difference to the average golfer. [b]Their poor green reading skills and lack of distance control greatly contribute to a missed putt before they have even addressed the ball.[/b] Their putter, toe up, toe down, whatever, has little to do with it.

[vman]

Take a good look on the PGA tour and you`ll see plenty of air under the toe of lots of tour players putters.Hell,Stricker has air under the heel of his putter.I`d tell him to get it bent upright 2* but he seems to putt okay with it.You`d think the tour pros would all get fitted so the sole was flat but they don`t!Go figure!!

[yoshiod9]

[quote name='mac94' date='06 May 2010 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1273179845' post='2425672']
[quote name='yoshiod9' date='06 May 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1273161751' post='2425056']
[quote name='mac94' date='04 May 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1273023177' post='2421588']
What do you mean by "marked" improvement? Is it going to take you from a 9hcp to a 5? No. But incremental improvements, which is what this is, is how equipment makes a difference.
[/quote]

A marked improvement, with regards to putting, would be if I suddenly started to one putt every green... Does having a proper lie change how well I putt? No. I still putt well with a putter that isn't properly fit to me (my mini copper gamer).

How can you measure an incremental improvement? You miss putts by a fraction of an inch less? It's a silly argument, really. People adjust their strokes to fit their equipment all the time (aim a bit higher or lower than the hole, hit strokes more off of the heel or toe, etc.). Does it look pretty? Does it work?
[/quote]

It's not a silly argument at all. You are simp0ly misunderstanding it.
[/quote]

You spoke of "incremental improvements" but an incremental improvement doesn't have a measurable outcome-- unless, of course, you can explain to me how to measure an incremental improvement.

I've given my actual experiences with a putter that "fits" and a putter that doesn't fit. I think that putting is one of my strong points. I've found a way to two putt most greens with a putter that doesn't "fit" me. MANY players simply adjust their stroke to fit their putter (most likely a subconscious decision). I, for example, have a putter that is probably 2 or 3* upright. However, I putt with a very open stance and cut across the ball slightly. As such, my putts fall pretty often. According to your implied beliefs, I shouldn't be able to putt well at all!

I don't understand why you're so argumentative over the importance of lie angles for a putter. It's blatantly obvious that it isn't as important as some people make it out to be. Many tour pros and MANY amateurs putt with improperly fitted putters and do perfectly fine.

[mac94]

[quote name='yoshiod9' date='07 May 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1273257562' post='2427470']
[quote name='mac94' date='06 May 2010 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1273179845' post='2425672']
[quote name='yoshiod9' date='06 May 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1273161751' post='2425056']
[quote name='mac94' date='04 May 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1273023177' post='2421588']
What do you mean by "marked" improvement? Is it going to take you from a 9hcp to a 5? No. But incremental improvements, which is what this is, is how equipment makes a difference.
[/quote]

A marked improvement, with regards to putting, would be if I suddenly started to one putt every green... Does having a proper lie change how well I putt? No. I still putt well with a putter that isn't properly fit to me (my mini copper gamer).

How can you measure an incremental improvement? You miss putts by a fraction of an inch less? It's a silly argument, really. People adjust their strokes to fit their equipment all the time (aim a bit higher or lower than the hole, hit strokes more off of the heel or toe, etc.). Does it look pretty? Does it work?
[/quote]

It's not a silly argument at all. You are simp0ly misunderstanding it.
[/quote]

You spoke of "incremental improvements" but an incremental improvement doesn't have a measurable outcome-- unless, of course, you can explain to me how to measure an incremental improvement.

I've given my actual experiences with a putter that "fits" and a putter that doesn't fit. I think that putting is one of my strong points. I've found a way to two putt most greens with a putter that doesn't "fit" me. MANY players simply adjust their stroke to fit their putter (most likely a subconscious decision). I, for example, have a putter that is probably 2 or 3* upright. However, I putt with a very open stance and cut across the ball slightly. As such, my putts fall pretty often. According to your implied beliefs, I shouldn't be able to putt well at all!

I don't understand why you're so argumentative over the importance of lie angles for a putter. It's blatantly obvious that it isn't as important as some people make it out to be. Many tour pros and MANY amateurs putt with improperly fitted putters and do perfectly fine.
[/quote]

How am I being argumentative? All I'm doing is taking the opposite side. No more argumentative than you, I guess.

It isn't a matter of putting fine with a lie angle incorrect. Of course you can do that. My point is, why would you? Plenty of guys can shoot great with improper length, of shaft flex. Doesn't mean they should get fit. I mean, one guy on here says that getting fit for you putter must result in all one putts or it is a waste of time?!?!?!?!? Huh?

[harold baines]

if you've been putting with a putter that's ill fit for you for years, it's highly likely that changing that putter to make it fit you "properly" will make your putting worse

[ryan_k]

[quote name='cheeser' date='04 May 2010 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1272991592' post='2420397']
Well, since you are "Ryan the Robot," then you must be talented enough to determine lie angle by eyesight alone, from a distance no less. Yes, the majority of golfers aren't fitted. Yes, the majority of golfers don't care. You and I or anyone else on this site aren't in the majority. You have two choices, offer the advice or sit there and continue shaking your head. On the other hand, who's to say that 10° lie angle wasn't "fit" to them?
[/quote]


[quote name='MP60dude' date='06 May 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1273182950' post='2425770']
[b]no need to get sand in your crotch.[/b]

To the op, you seem like a nice guy....not. You really should check the use of the word retarded, your posts so far point in your direction!

I have had a few putting lessons, and specifically worked on making my putter flat with my stroke. I do agree the putter should be flat, but that is just me and my perfection...
[/quote]


[quote name='NicholasP ' date='06 May 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1273198770' post='2426271']
[quote name='MP60dude' date='06 May 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1273182950' post='2425770']
[b]no need to get sand in your crotch.[/b]

To the op, you seem like a nice guy....not. You really should check the use of the word retarded, your posts so far point in your direction!

I have had a few putting lessons, and specifically worked on making my putter flat with my stroke. I do agree the putter should be flat, but that is just me and my perfection...
[/quote]

Agreed, the usage of the word retarded is really inappropriate and unacceptable on a forum like this. Try acting you are slightly educated next time you decide to post something.
[/quote]


[quote name='harold baines' date='07 May 2010 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1273247504' post='2427172']
maybe you should spend more time practicing your own putting and less time staring at other people's equipment
[/quote]


Something something retarded, something something putter stroke, something something practice more.......


Glad I made an impact on you all and you decide to lecture me on what is "appropriate" and not. This is a discussion about lie angles, please see your way out.


If you read the entire thread you will see the post about me saying sorry if it came off harsh.....

[yoshiod9]

[quote name='mac94' date='07 May 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1273258579' post='2427504']

How am I being argumentative? All I'm doing is taking the opposite side. No more argumentative than you, I guess.

It isn't a matter of putting fine with a lie angle incorrect. Of course you can do that. My point is, why would you? Plenty of guys can shoot great with improper length, of shaft flex. Doesn't mean they should get fit. I mean, one guy on here says that getting fit for you putter must result in all one putts or it is a waste of time?!?!?!?!? Huh?
[/quote]

Very true about you not being any more argumentative than I am. Ha ha. The reason, I feel, that people still putt or play golf without having been properly fit is because they're naive to the importance of being fit.

I'm still curious, though, as to what you meant when you said that getting your lie angle properly fit will result in an, "incremental improvement."

[tdk8180]

There is a norm or a control, for all golf club fitting. It's called standard. If you "need" 2 Flat on your irons and 3 Flat on your putter, and 1 Flat on your wedges, to make impact with the ball in a way that a standard player already is making. Then, you "need" to adjust your clubs in whatever way they "need" to be adjusted to hit the ball dead on the middle of the face, with the horizontal aspect of the face straight.

After that, you can make adjustments as a PREFERENCE, to what gets you back to Standard. I like impacting the ball at 2 Flat, because I like the fade it produces. My clubs have to be bent to 3 Flat, to be able to get them to register at 1 Flat. The point is, I KNOW WHAT MY CLUBS NEED TO BE TO HIT STANDARD, then I make adjustments. And that is something that the OP is getting at. Knowing the science first, before making adjustments.

[dlygrisse]

Set the shaft of your putter flat on the ground with the toe straight up, hold the butt of the handle in place and move the putter head in an arch with you other hand and hit a ball, guess what the ball will go straight where it is aimed, in theory this putter is 71* too upright!!!

IMO the putters lie angle has to do more with how you aim than anything, if a properly fitted putter aims the ball straighter for you then it is better, if you aim better with the toe in the air like Aoki, or the heel like Stricker then dont change. From what I see on tour most players have the toe slightly in the air, which is what I prefer. I have had stretches where I putted more like Aoki and putted well, the main thing is dont stand too close to the ball or get overly far way from it.

Lie angles on irons OTOH drive me crazy if they arent perfect for my swing, typically 2* up.