Question about Hogan Fade

[tembolo1284]

If he was coming from such an inside plane, how did he manage to hit a cut?

 

I've studied footage of him closely and I notice even though he's coming from far inside, the club hits the ball and goes left very quickly.

 

The club exits way below his left shoulder when you view him DTL.

 

My only thought is because he put the ball fairly far up in his stance, he was able to hit and then quickly have the club exit to the left.

 

Assuming he had the clubface square or open, then it produced the fade. Am I right?

[highergr0und]

His irons were bent open and he turned left as hard and fast as he could. The open face to the path promoted the fade even though he was trying to slam it shut. The inside delivery and low left release gave him the power.

[nitefisher111]

I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='nitefisher111' date='15 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279220939' post='2578061']
I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.
[/quote]
Hogan played a straight to push fade. True path was close to 0 or slightly in to out with face open to path. His ball really didn't fade much at all from all acounts I've heard.

Trevino, Ryan Moore, and Couples all hit push fades with a path that is inside out. This is why they have/had to aim so far left.

[thenewbie]

[quote name='nitefisher111' date='15 July 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1279220939' post='2578061']
I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but you can most certainly hit a cut with any path you please. Any time the face is open to the swing plain, the ball will start where the face is aimed, then cut. If you swing with a path the is in to out 3* from the target line, and a face that is open 6* to the target line, you will have a face that is 3* open compared to the swing path. This will create a push-cut that starts 6* right of the target line.

[nitefisher111]

Okay, thanks for the clarification newbie and iteach. Push fade doesn't register in my brain...never (intentionally) played for it or even really thought about it...that makes perfect sense now.

[JD3]

[quote name='iteachgolf' date='15 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1279221130' post='2578077']
[quote name='nitefisher111' date='15 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279220939' post='2578061']
I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.
[/quote]
Hogan played a straight to push fade. True path was close to 0 or slightly in to out with face open to path. His ball really didn't fade much at all from all acounts I've heard.

Trevino, Ryan Moore, and Couples all hit push fades with a path that is inside out. This is why they have/had to aim so far left.
[/quote]
Teach, how did Hogan hit a push fade if he lined up a bit closed like he said?

[thenewbie]

[quote name='JD3' date='15 July 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1279234197' post='2578592']
[quote name='iteachgolf' date='15 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1279221130' post='2578077']
[quote name='nitefisher111' date='15 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279220939' post='2578061']
I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.
[/quote]
Hogan played a straight to push fade. True path was close to 0 or slightly in to out with face open to path. His ball really didn't fade much at all from all acounts I've heard.

Trevino, Ryan Moore, and Couples all hit push fades with a path that is inside out. This is why they have/had to aim so far left.
[/quote]
Teach, how did Hogan hit a push fade if he lined up a bit closed like he said?
[/quote]

Well, now it's getting into semantics, which is, of course, spawn to most of the hogan discussions. He didn't set up closed. In fact, after openning his front foot a quarter turn and setting his right foot square to the line, he then dropped his right foot back for his longer shots. The amount he dropped his foot back was relative to how much he widened his stance, which was relative to the length of the club he was using.

Check it out;
[attachment=626779:BenHoganSetUp.jpg]

So, so complex. The man was very methodical.

[JD3]

Per that diagram he looks open for short irons, square for mid, and closed for long irons and woods. I would think only open is consistent with a push-fade.

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='iteachgolf' date='15 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1279221130' post='2578077']
[quote name='nitefisher111' date='15 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279220939' post='2578061']
I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.
[/quote]
Hogan played a straight to push fade. True path was close to 0 or slightly in to out with face open to path. His ball really didn't fade much at all from all acounts I've heard.

Trevino, Ryan Moore, and Couples all hit push fades with a path that is inside out. This is why they have/had to aim so far left.
[/quote]

48 Riviera...when he SAID he was playing his best golf...Looks pretty cp to me...

[attachment=626830:HgnRiv48.jpg]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='JD3' date='15 July 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1279242188' post='2578833']
Per that diagram he looks open for short irons, square for mid, and closed for long irons and woods. I would think only open is consistent with a push-fade.
[/quote]

Feet may be close but shoulders and hips are square to open. Like I said his ball flight was very straight and didn't fade as much as people seem to believe. When he did fade it I think it was a small push fade that finished right of the target.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Siteseer2' date='15 July 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1279242678' post='2578850']
[quote name='iteachgolf' date='15 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1279221130' post='2578077']
[quote name='nitefisher111' date='15 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279220939' post='2578061']
I'm interested to see what people say here. I don't have a ton of knowledge, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

First you can't hit a fade with a path that is inside the target line. There are 3 ways to hit a fade...a pull fade, "straight" fade and push fade. All require an out to in path. The only exception might be a heel hit with path and face zeroed out. Someone with more knowledge can commetn there.

Ball flight laws would say that the Hogan fade you are talking about was a pull fade. Clubface left of target causing the ball to start left and an out to in path (further left than the face) causing the fade spin. Hogan played the ball forward in his stance and released late and "left". Both of these could cause a down the line swing to move left late on the circle.
[/quote]
Hogan played a straight to push fade. True path was close to 0 or slightly in to out with face open to path. His ball really didn't fade much at all from all acounts I've heard.

Trevino, Ryan Moore, and Couples all hit push fades with a path that is inside out. This is why they have/had to aim so far left.
[/quote]

48 Riviera...when he SAID he was playing his best golf...Looks pretty cp to me...

[attachment=626830:HgnRiv48.jpg]
[/quote]

Where is rest of sequence/video?

Camera angle looks a decent amount off. Hogan was inline in almost all video I've seen that is filmed from a decent camera angle. Left arm is in at P5 and clubhead is definitely not kicking out past his hands from P6ish to P7. I haven't seen video where starts a ball much left of the target.

[thenewbie]

[quote name='iteachgolf' date='15 July 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1279244044' post='2578907']
[quote name='JD3' date='15 July 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1279242188' post='2578833']
Per that diagram he looks open for short irons, square for mid, and closed for long irons and woods. I would think only open is consistent with a push-fade.
[/quote]

Feet may be close but shoulders and hips are square to open. Like I said his ball flight was very straight and didn't fade as much as people seem to believe. When he did fade it I think it was a small push fade that finished right of the target.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said he slid his foot back. The foot moved back, but everything else stayed relatively square. So if the ball started along his footline it would, in essence, be a push.

Like I said, it's all semantics.

For the record, he used his setup to fascilitate the motions he wanted in his swing while helping to eliminate the possibilty of those motions occuring that he didn't want. He pre-cleared his hip for short shots by oopening his feet because he realized that you don't need your hips as a power source for wedge shots. That's normal and something most of us do, but he used the opposite for long shots. He wanted to make it easier to get an inside attack and fuller turn, so he moved his foot back. The interesting thing was that he always played his right foot square to the line to restrict his hips, even as he was pulling his right foot back to allow a good turn.

Imagine the experimenting he did to find that this concept worked for him.

Iteach, if I'm off on any of this then feel free to correct.

[iteachgolf]

Feet may be closed but shoulders and hips are always open, Doesn't look CP to me and ball is starting dead straight to if anything a touch right with short iron. No way he was swinging across the ball

[attachment=626869:Picture 24.png]
[attachment=626870:Picture 25.png]
[attachment=626871:Picture 26.png]

[JD3]

Good analysis Teach, thanks!

love the top RH corner pic

[grahler]

The Hogan stance was genius-shorte rclubs hit slightly steeper which means earlier in the swing arc longer clubs later...
apply ball flight law to that!




















Hogan wasn't dumb

[tembolo1284]

I agree with what was said. You either have to come across it with in open face (high handicap usual method for slice), or hit it coming from down the line or slightly inside with an open face (the draw swing fade). I would say i've never seen any good player or tour pro really come from outside. Most of these guys
are just aiming left and have a slightly open face and hit a hard mini push and the ball holds it's line or leaks a bit right. I also agree that hogan didn't really
slide it too much to the right. With the power and snap he has through the ball, he must have been hitting a push fade.

What i still don't get is how he was doing this from a closed stance with his longer clubs.

Funny thing is if you watch the Shell's wonderful world of golf where he played Snead and hit every green and fairway, you hear the commentator constantly saying great shot etc etc...and the ball flying from right to left! Maybe in his old age he didn't quite have that body/trunk move through the ball to hold the face open?

I've seen couples and nicklaus on the range hit and they definitely hit push fades...lots of power as everyone knows. But hogan's motion from what i see on video is different. If he has flat clubs that are anti-hook and lead tape on toe and all that, I still don't see how the guy manages to hit push fades from a closed stance....but the ball finishes on target. Shouldn't he be missing everything well right of the target?

[iteachgolf]

His feet were closed with long clubs. His shoulders, knees, and hips were open. As far as aim and startline go feet are the least important thing to consider. See Kenny Perry for the opposite. Feet aimed left and shoulders aimed right at setup.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='iteachgolf' date='16 July 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1279304992' post='2580288']
His feet were closed with long clubs. His shoulders, knees, and hips were open. As far as aim and startline go feet are the least important thing to consider. See Kenny Perry for the opposite. Feet aimed left and shoulders aimed right at setup.
[/quote]


iteachgolf, that makes a lot of sense. So in that sense then, he was in fact open. Great thanks!

[tembolo1284]

I had one more question. I notice that hogan basically returns his shaft right back to where he had it at address. Where nicklaus and most upright swingers come from above the plane and have to arc their wrist down to get to the ball. Do you think this helps hogan in his delivery to the ball at all to hit the cut, or that's just more his style (being a relatively flat swinger versus nicklaus more upright) .

[iteachgolf]

it helps slow down the rate of closure and therefore help prevent a hook which was Hogan's goal.

[eightiron]

[quote name='iteachgolf' date='15 July 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1279246142' post='2579028']
Feet may be closed but shoulders and hips are always open, Doesn't look CP to me and ball is starting dead straight to if anything a touch right with short iron. No way he was swinging across the ball

[attachment=626869:Picture 24.png]
[attachment=626870:Picture 25.png]
[attachment=626871:Picture 26.png]
[/quote]

Wrote about this before and agree with Iteach

[michaelgb888]

Eight and iteach,

Would like to respectfully request for details on your belief that there's no CP in Hogan's release. Or are you just saying there's no CP only in the picture posted by Siteseer2?

I've thought before that Hogan may have released CF too, not CP. I think I'm seeing it in his swing pics in the 55 Life Mag article. Look at post impact pic, clubface is still in vicinity of target line and facing the target. I don't know, I may be wrong as camera is upfront and not dtl. But I may be correct also? And look also at his high follow through, which more suggest a CF release?

What's your teachings/beliefs on this? Why CP? And how did he do it?

Best.

[Siteseer2]

cf fades...Nah...

[attachment=627401:Hogan-cp.jpg]

[iteachgolf]

I think Hogan was inline. Shaft simply was on plane post impact. Baseline wasn't shifted left

[tylerdurden]

Bump...


I asked about open shoulders a while ago at setup - looks like some pretty smart guys agreed.

[svsvincenzo]

If his shoulders would be closed, with his hands mid-body positioned, his hands would now be on his R hip...lol

[MadGolfer76]

Is iTeach still around? Haven't seen him post in a long time.

[ej002]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1346202766' post='5552015']
Bump...


I asked about open shoulders a while ago at setup - looks like some pretty smart guys agreed.
[/quote]

I remember Slice saying something to the effect - [i]you can play some pretty good golf from an open stance[/i]... or something to that effect.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1346248657' post='5554277']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1346202766' post='5552015']
Bump...


I asked about open shoulders a while ago at setup - looks like some pretty smart guys agreed.
[/quote]

I remember Slice saying something to the effect - [i]you can play some pretty good golf from an open stance[/i]... or something to that effect.
[/quote]

Interesting. I need to go see him soon.

I have problems with pushes and hooks anyway, so closing my stance never makes sense to me. Why not just open it slightly, especially if I'm playing a cut anyway.