New and Improved Shaft Chart

[FairwayGolfUSA.com]

Great work Howard! Thank you...

- Wayne

[techjunkee]

Howard Jones is GTG!

Great addition with the PXi specs.

Thank you!

++++++1

[r510ti]

thanks!

[David81]

Just a post to say thanks for posting this information. I tried PXi 6.0 and they worked well for me which I couldn't understand as I thought I would be a 5.5 or even a 5.0 guy - your measurements helped me make some sense of what I found in practice [size=4] [/size]

[Russ]

This is a helpful place to understand golf shafts, www.golfshaftreviews.info.

[Barto78]

Per the KBS website, the R+ has a 5.8 FCM, not 5.7. Just thought i'd let you know that in case your chart was based off information other than their official info.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1367335753' post='6944073']
Per the KBS website, the R+ has a 5.8 FCM, not 5.7. Just thought i'd let you know that in case your chart was based off information other than their official info.
[/quote]


- ALL Numbers from KBS is measured with SW value D2, while the FCM system is based on D3
Thats why all KBS numbers is adjusted by 1 CPM to be directly comparable to the others.

[Jack Pearsall]

Would CFS be more like PXi in terms of tip and where the shaft loads (mid)?

[Wardonation]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1345104041' post='5481192']
@dcforuk

RIFLE or FCM flex has some BASE numbers, but CPM value change when we go longer or shorter
BASE is 43.00" with a Swing weight of D3

FCM 5.0 = 250 CPM
FCM 5.5 = 255 CPM....
FCM 6.0 = 260 CPM

If this club was 40 long, then the CPM value would raise with 4.3 CPM for each 0.5 or 8.6 for each inch
so at 40 : ( 3 x 8.6 = PLUS 25.8 )

FCM 5.0 = 250 + 25.8 = 275.8
FCM 5.5 = 255 + 25.8 = 280.8
FCM 6.0 = 260 + 25.8 = 285.8

IF SW value is other than D3, then CPM follow 1:1
Lower SW gives higher CPM so at D2 - ADD 1 CPM
Higher SW gives lower CPM so at D4 - Substract 1 CPM

Its all math, but this numbers is measured with a 2.5 inch clamp. If a 5.0 inch clamp is used, we can add 17 CPM (average)

EDIT : To early in the morning, gave you the wrong base length :-)
[/quote] SO I have read through this AWESOME thread two times and have a questions. If I like the weight of the S300 but the dispersion of the PX should I go with 6.0's ss 2x's. I currently went through a swing change and the 6.0 flighted have lost me a club of distance from the PXI 6.0's. I love the weight of the flighted but need a little softer flex especially in shoulder season when it is cold. The PX5.5 are getting pretty light again for me. thanks as always you are great for all your help to everyone... WRX superstar for sure.

[Howard_Jones]

I dont understand where you wants to go here, since DG is close to 130 grams and PXi 6.0 is down at 108 grams
The hole PXI series is softer than regular PX so if you came from 6.0F and wants it both softer and lighter, PXi 6.5 would be closest in the PXi series in both flex and weight, but still lighter and softer than 6.0F

[Wardonation]

MY BAD HOWARD I WAS SPEAKING ABOOUT THE PXF 6.0'S WHICH ARE STILL A TAD HARSH FOR ME? WONDERING ABOUT SSX2 PX6.0 TO GET THE FCM NEAR 5.8 AND NOT LOOSE AS MUCH WEIGHT AS GOING STRAIGHT TO 5.5PX? Sorry for caps.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Wardonation' timestamp='1369154416' post='7077302']
MY BAD HOWARD I WAS SPEAKING ABOOUT THE PXF 6.0'S WHICH ARE STILL A TAD HARSH FOR ME? WONDERING ABOUT SSX2 PX6.0 TO GET THE FCM NEAR 5.8 AND NOT LOOSE AS MUCH WEIGHT AS GOING STRAIGHT TO 5.5PX? Sorry for caps.
[/quote]

There is very different opinions if soft stepping PX is a good idea or not, but what ever works.....Get 1 shaft and try it first.
Going Constant weight might be a good thing in the short irons, compared to Flighted.

[Wardonation]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1346736182' post='5582641']
[quote name='gambit' timestamp='1346642183' post='5577007']
Hi Howard, the information you provided has been great. I'm wondering, however, when you were comparing the Px flighted to standard which iron length were you using. I read from the beginning of this thread, and it seems as if your partner who helped make the chart stated that Px flighted 6.0s would be closer 5.5 in the long, 6.0 in the mids, and 6.5 in the short, but you and others are saying that Px 6.0 flighted is = 5.5 standard. Please correct me if I misunderstood. My concern is that I just got some clubs with 5.5 flighted after demoing the 6 iron. I play 5.5 non-flighted previously so I'm worried that they'll either be too soft or a combo of too soft/hard depending if I'm hitting long or short iron. I've also read that standard 5.5s are stiffer than DGS300 shafts, so would the stiffness in flighted 5.5s be comparable to DGS300s and KBS Tour S? Thanks.
[/quote]

First of all, this is ONLY butt Cpm strength and it not useful to compare 2 shafts as a hole. Then we need the hole profile like Tom Wishons shaft profiling software. Im using the #6 iron shaft, since its the #6 iron im using for fitting of irons.
PX Flighted is on average 4 CPM softer than regular, so PX 5.5 Flighted equals to "PX 5.1" as standard.

In FCM numbers the shafts you mention looks like this

KBS Tour R+ = 5.5
PX 5.5 Flighted = 5.6
S300 = 5.8
PX 5.5 = 6.0
KBS Tour S = 6.0

Flighted is a mix of flexes but they dont vary in flex "as a set". They way they are trimmed makes them equal as a set, so the long irons who actually is a stronger shaft, becomes softer the way its trimmed, and the short irons who is actually a softer shaft is made stronger the way its trimmed. Thats why Flighted is descending weight even with taper tip shafts, while butt Cpm strength got normal progression with a average of 4 CPM from iron to iron like ordinary PX or DG.

I have a set of Callaway Prototype 3-PW on my table with PX 6.5 Flighted today, and i can give you all numbers later so you can see what slope they follow
[/quote] Howard I have one last question for you. I am currently gaming now PXF 6.0's. I am deeply studying all your good info but I have a personal concern. To me the 9 and PW in the flighted set feel stiffer than the rest of the irons? They also end up playing about a .5 club shorter than normal for me? Would it be crazy for me to put the 8 iron shaft in the 9 and PW? Or do you have another idea for me? I love the weight so I am afraid to go to a 5.5 in either Flighted or PX? Thank you for your help you WRXer of the year for sure.

[Howard_Jones]

...What ever works, is the best rule of them all, but be aware of a few things here.

Some OEM uses a lower BBGM on their short irons, who makes them to play stronger, and PXF is a hard stepped 1 flex softer, so they are also lighter weight than your mid and long irons. I have no idea of why they are 0.5 shorter than they should...
8,9,PW is the "Hard stepped" short iron, so if you feel for changing them, go PX 6.0 standard flight 8,9,PW, and you stay in flex and keep shaft weight and flight pattern equal to your mid irons.
(If hosel specs in the short heads is equal to the others, so measure both BBGM and hosel depth)

Thats my suggestion, Go 6.0 standards strait in. Your Long irons will still be like 6.5 SS1, so they have more weight than the others.

[Wardonation]

Awesome will do I am also going to put in my wedges. Thank you howard...

[brokeezy]

This is great, thanks!

[neova]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1365007661' post='6751699']The easy way to judge PX VS PXi in my opinion, is to list them by official weight

PX 6.0 = 120 gram
PXi 6.5 = 117 gram
PX 5.5 = 115 gram
PX 5.0 = 115 gram
PXi 6.0 = 112 gram

If we shall judge the shaft as a hole, just add the hole PXI series to the bottom of the regular, since PXI is softer mid and tip
[/quote]

I have the PXi 6.0 and had mixed results after 15 rounds and i think 112g shaft is too light in my hands but i didnt want to go to a 6.5 just to get the heavier 117g weight.

Then I read another post about someone trying to decide between PXi 6.0 vs 6.5 and you suggested adding lead tape on the shaft 14" from butt end at fulcrum point so it doesn't impact swingweight.

I added 5g tape for all 9 of my PXi 6.0 shafts 4-LW and after a couple range sessions I must say I now hit the heavier PXi 6.0 SOLID 9/10 times as opposed to only about 5/6 out of 10. I cannot believe how just 5g of weight can help set my hands better at the top which I believe was instrumental in properly loading the shaft.

Now this latest post on judging PX and PXi by weight instead of flex label made sense - I previously played PX 6.0 120g and wanted something less stiff so tested the PX5.5 115g but it was too soft...

Now my heavier PXi 6.0 117g appears to be perfect solution!

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='neova' timestamp='1373112336' post='7397246']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1365007661' post='6751699']The easy way to judge PX VS PXi in my opinion, is to list them by official weight

PX 6.0 = 120 gram
PXi 6.5 = 117 gram
PX 5.5 = 115 gram
PX 5.0 = 115 gram
PXi 6.0 = 112 gram

If we shall judge the shaft as a hole, just add the hole PXI series to the bottom of the regular, since PXI is softer mid and tip
[/quote]

I have the PXi 6.0 and had mixed results after 15 rounds and i think 112g shaft is too light in my hands but i didnt want to go to a 6.5 just to get the heavier 117g weight.

Then I read another post about someone trying to decide between PXi 6.0 vs 6.5 and you suggested adding lead tape on the shaft 14" from butt end at fulcrum point so it doesn't impact swingweight.

I added 5g tape for all 9 of my PXi 6.0 shafts 4-LW and after a couple range sessions I must say I now hit the heavier PXi 6.0 SOLID 9/10 times as opposed to only about 5/6 out of 10. I cannot believe how just 5g of weight can help set my hands better at the top which I believe was instrumental in properly loading the shaft.

Now this latest post on judging PX and PXi by weight instead of flex label made sense - I previously played PX 6.0 120g and wanted something less stiff so tested the PX5.5 115g but it was too soft...

Now my heavier PXi 6.0 117g appears to be perfect solution!
[/quote]

I judge shaft weight as more important than shaft flex, and like you just found out, 5 grams shaft weight difference matters, but do yourself that favor, and try that on all your clubs from driver and up. It does not need to be more that 2-3 grams before you might se a difference, and always go to high, and tweak down again to make sure you found the shaft weight that works the best.
Put the club on a scale and take notes. Small adjustments to head weight/ sw value can be very beneficial to.

Im glad you made a reply to what it made for you, because many think that im joking when i suggest they add 5 grams to the shaft, but shaft weight is IMO #2 in fitting, after club length. Thats why its a good thing to have all the shaft weight options we got today.

[neova]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1373120994' post='7397752']
I judge shaft weight as more important than shaft flex, and like you just found out, 5 grams shaft weight difference matters, but do yourself that favor, and try that on all your clubs from driver and up. It does not need to be more that 2-3 grams before you might se a difference, and always go to high, and tweak down again to make sure you found the shaft weight that works the best.
Put the club on a scale and take notes. Small adjustments to head weight/ sw value can be very beneficial to.

Im glad you made a reply to what it made for you, because many think that im joking when i suggest they add 5 grams to the shaft, but shaft weight is IMO #2 in fitting, after club length. Thats why its a good thing to have all the shaft weight options we got today.
[/quote]

I've experimented with length extensively and have settled on the 37.75" 5-iron standard, since I've been playing for a long time in that spec. What threw me off a bit was when I started trying these newer shafts from DG to PX, CT, PXi.... Some are countered balanced so swingweight was too light.

I will try the 5g lead tape on my hybrid and woods shaft as I never thought to do this since I have removable weights in the club heads...

[HellasLEAF]

Hey guys, new to the board and I have a specific/important question about shaft flex and what is right for me. I went into the the store and tried out an RBZ stage 2 driver, 9.5 loft, stiff flex. My swing speed was always in the high 80's low 90's. I feel like I should be going with the regular flex but the guy said that the more I golf (just started back up again after years away from the game), the more confidence I'll gain and should increase my swing speed. basically he said err on the side of improvement and go stiff.

what do you guys think. my current Nike Machspeed driver is stiff and I'm erratic with it. I"m very good with my RBZ (first gen) 3 hybrd off the 3 however. I like the idea of accuracy over extra yardage.

All that being considered. Stiff or regular guys...

[SILVERFOX1]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1373120994' post='7397752']
[quote name='neova' timestamp='1373112336' post='7397246']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1365007661' post='6751699']The easy way to judge PX VS PXi in my opinion, is to list them by official weight

PX 6.0 = 120 gram
PXi 6.5 = 117 gram
PX 5.5 = 115 gram
PX 5.0 = 115 gram
PXi 6.0 = 112 gram

If we shall judge the shaft as a hole, just add the hole PXI series to the bottom of the regular, since PXI is softer mid and tip
[/quote]

I have the PXi 6.0 and had mixed results after 15 rounds and i think 112g shaft is too light in my hands but i didnt want to go to a 6.5 just to get the heavier 117g weight.

Then I read another post about someone trying to decide between PXi 6.0 vs 6.5 and you suggested adding lead tape on the shaft 14" from butt end at fulcrum point so it doesn't impact swingweight.

I added 5g tape for all 9 of my PXi 6.0 shafts 4-LW and after a couple range sessions I must say I now hit the heavier PXi 6.0 SOLID 9/10 times as opposed to only about 5/6 out of 10. I cannot believe how just 5g of weight can help set my hands better at the top which I believe was instrumental in properly loading the shaft.

Now this latest post on judging PX and PXi by weight instead of flex label made sense - I previously played PX 6.0 120g and wanted something less stiff so tested the PX5.5 115g but it was too soft...

Now my heavier PXi 6.0 117g appears to be perfect solution!
[/quote]

I judge shaft weight as more important than shaft flex, and like you just found out, 5 grams shaft weight difference matters, but do yourself that favor, and try that on all your clubs from driver and up. It does not need to be more that 2-3 grams before you might se a difference, and always go to high, and tweak down again to make sure you found the shaft weight that works the best.
Put the club on a scale and take notes. Small adjustments to head weight/ sw value can be very beneficial to.

Im glad you made a reply to what it made for you, because many think that im joking when i suggest they add 5 grams to the shaft, but shaft weight is IMO #2 in fitting, after club length. Thats why its a good thing to have all the shaft weight options we got today.
[/quote]

Howard,

Can you please tell me how a Modus 3 stiff soft stepped once compares to a PXI 5.5?

Thanks

[smoky25]

[quote name='HellasLEAF' timestamp='1373334234' post='7413414']
Hey guys, new to the board and I have a specific/important question about shaft flex and what is right for me. I went into the the store and tried out an RBZ stage 2 driver, 9.5 loft, stiff flex. My swing speed was always in the high 80's low 90's. I feel like I should be going with the regular flex but the guy said that the more I golf (just started back up again after years away from the game), the more confidence I'll gain and should increase my swing speed. basically he said err on the side of improvement and go stiff.

what do you guys think. my current Nike Machspeed driver is stiff and I'm erratic with it. I"m very good with my RBZ (first gen) 3 hybrd off the 3 however. I like the idea of accuracy over extra yardage.

All that being considered. Stiff or regular guys...
[/quote]

One of the great things about adjustable drivers is the ability to change shafts easily. He should have had a regular shaft for you to try in that head. With your swing speed you should go regular now and if you do improve and start to generate more swing speed you can easily and fairly inexpensively buy a stiff flex shaft to put into that head.

[Howard_Jones]

I dont know Nippon Modus in person, only by specs, and here is a compare of PXi 5.5 and 6.0 vs Modus 3 S flex (all strait in). Specs comes from Tom Wishon Shaft profiling software


[attachment=1777634:Modus3.PNG]

[SILVERFOX1]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1373537397' post='7430456']
I dont know Nippon Modus in person, only by specs, and here is a compare of PXi 5.5 and 6.0 vs Modus 3 S flex (all strait in). Specs comes from Tom Wishon Shaft profiling software


[attachment=1777634:Modus3.PNG]
[/quote]

Howard,

Thanks. From the table you kindly provided they look very comparable with the exception that the modus is much more tip stiff. Assuming soft stepping once is a third of flex then the following comparison can be made:
36 31 26 21 16 11 PXI (5.5) 209 249 298 375 514 849 Modus 3 (Soft stepped once) 207 241 292 368 504 936 Diff 2 8 6 7 10 -87

Based on this it appears the butt differences (36 number) are negligible. However, the comparison of numbers 31, 26, 21 and 16 could almost equate to the PXI being a full flex stiffer than the modus although the latter still has a much firmer tip. Do you think they will play similar?

For your info my driver swing speed is around 96 and I hit my current 7 iron around 155 yards. I have a fairly smooth swing. I like the modus 3 Stiff (mine are soft stepped once) but unfortunately Callaway in the UK don't offer them as an option in the new X Forged that I want to buy!

Thanks,

[Howard_Jones]

The very tip end at 11" dont do much alone, we have to see both 16" and 21", "with it" to judge it.
- If we for the sake of example compare DG S300 to DG X100 most looses the mask, because X100 is WAY SOFTER at the 11", but still goes lower than S300. If we read those numbers "by the book", X100 would add dynamic loft and spin, but the tip who is soft, is to short for that, so its mostly a adjustment to feel, it does not do much to ball flight, and thats only visible on this numbers if we judge the tip to include 16" and 21"

[attachment=1778994:S300 to X100.PNG]

We must remember that its not 1:1 when we read this numbers, judge difference as a difference in%
and then we will see that we can have quite a bit difference to the 11 section before we will notice, while the 36, 31 and 26 is way more "sensitive" since numbers is lower, so even small differences might be large as a % in difference.

I have not seen Modus 3, so i have not done any side by side real life testing, but the way i read those numbers, Modus will only have a firmer feel tip side, and slightly softer for the rest, but feel influence on the way your load the shaft, but i cant tell how that will influence on you.
- Those shafts is close, and natural options to each other by weight and profile.

Here is a better compare of them all
[attachment=1778996:PXi to Modus.PNG]

[SILVERFOX1]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1373602069' post='7437628']
The very tip end at 11" dont do much alone, we have to see both 16" and 21", "with it" to judge it.
- If we for the sake of example compare DG S300 to DG X100 most looses the mask, because X100 is WAY SOFTER at the 11", but still goes lower than S300. If we read those numbers "by the book", X100 would add dynamic loft and spin, but the tip who is soft, is to short for that, so its mostly a adjustment to feel, it does not do much to ball flight, and thats only visible on this numbers if we judge the tip to include 16" and 21"

[attachment=1778994:S300 to X100.PNG]

We must remember that its not 1:1 when we read this numbers, judge difference as a difference in%
and then we will see that we can have quite a bit difference to the 11 section before we will notice, while the 36, 31 and 26 is way more "sensitive" since numbers is lower, so even small differences might be large as a % in difference.

I have not seen Modus 3, so i have not done any side by side real life testing, but the way i read those numbers, Modus will only have a firmer feel tip side, and slightly softer for the rest, but feel influence on the way your load the shaft, but i cant tell how that will influence on you.
- Those shafts is close, and natural options to each other by weight and profile.

Here is a better compare of them all
[attachment=1778996:PXi to Modus.PNG]
[/quote]

Howard,

Thanks for the fantastic response - much appreciated.

Best regards

[fluffy265]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1373120994' post='7397752']
[quote name='neova' timestamp='1373112336' post='7397246']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1365007661' post='6751699']The easy way to judge PX VS PXi in my opinion, is to list them by official weight

PX 6.0 = 120 gram
PXi 6.5 = 117 gram
PX 5.5 = 115 gram
PX 5.0 = 115 gram
PXi 6.0 = 112 gram

If we shall judge the shaft as a hole, just add the hole PXI series to the bottom of the regular, since PXI is softer mid and tip
[/quote]

I have the PXi 6.0 and had mixed results after 15 rounds and i think 112g shaft is too light in my hands but i didnt want to go to a 6.5 just to get the heavier 117g weight.

Then I read another post about someone trying to decide between PXi 6.0 vs 6.5 and you suggested adding lead tape on the shaft 14" from butt end at fulcrum point so it doesn't impact swingweight.

I added 5g tape for all 9 of my PXi 6.0 shafts 4-LW and after a couple range sessions I must say I now hit the heavier PXi 6.0 SOLID 9/10 times as opposed to only about 5/6 out of 10. I cannot believe how just 5g of weight can help set my hands better at the top which I believe was instrumental in properly loading the shaft.

Now this latest post on judging PX and PXi by weight instead of flex label made sense - I previously played PX 6.0 120g and wanted something less stiff so tested the PX5.5 115g but it was too soft...

Now my heavier PXi 6.0 117g appears to be perfect solution!
[/quote]

I judge shaft weight as more important than shaft flex, and like you just found out, 5 grams shaft weight difference matters, but do yourself that favor, and try that on all your clubs from driver and up. It does not need to be more that 2-3 grams before you might se a difference, and always go to high, and tweak down again to make sure you found the shaft weight that works the best.
Put the club on a scale and take notes. Small adjustments to head weight/ sw value can be very beneficial to.

Im glad you made a reply to what it made for you, because many think that im joking when i suggest they add 5 grams to the shaft, but shaft weight is IMO #2 in fitting, after club length. Thats why its a good thing to have all the shaft weight options we got today.
[/quote]

Howard,
Firstly thanks.This thread has helped me out a lot. I had recently been trying to add weight to a set of Brunswick FCM 7.3.s Temporarily adding weight with lead tape to the fulcrum point of the shaft has told me I want to be about 6-7 grams heavier. Now would the best way to achieve this static weight permanently with out interfering with the clubs balance point be by adding 2 grams to the head and 4 grams to the butt end?

Secondly more out of curiosity than anything, do you know if the older Brunswick FCM scale differs to the Rifle FCM scale? I ask this mainly because the factory CPM labels on these shafts out of the box all read between 241.8 - 241.9 CPM. Am I wrong in thinking that this seems like a low figure for a FCM 7.3 shaft?

Thanks J

[Howard_Jones]

@Fluffy

Some players dont mind to split a total weight raise to Grip / Head (1 gram head side is 2.5 grams grip side = plus 3.5 as a rule of thumb), while others need the weight to be from the shaft itself.

Im not familiar with early models Rifle, but the labels on the butt is measured with a 2.5 clamp and a 255 grams weight, so those values got nothing to do with a play ready club or the FCM system.
The blanks im using (old model) got this labels/CPM butt side as RAW uncut shafts.

4.0 = 220.1
4.5 = 224.6
5.0 = 227.1
5.5 = 231.1
6.0 = 234.6
6.5 = 238.1
7.0 = 240.6

The FCM system is for the play ready club measured with a 2.5" clamp and a SW value of D3
(Headers with Iron #, is MY standard, or 0.5 plus from Rifle standard)
[attachment=1780468:FCM chart irons.PNG]

Rifle was re-designed for 2012 so now its only 4.0-5.0-6.0-7.0 and they are now to be measured with a 5.0 clamp, but still the label is RAW uncut measured with a 255 grams weight.

[fluffy265]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1373732472' post='7447344']
@Fluffy

Some players dont mind to split a total weight raise to Grip / Head (1 gram head side is 2.5 grams grip side = plus 3.5 as a rule of thumb), while others need the weight to be from the shaft itself.

Im not familiar with early models Rifle, but the labels on the butt is measured with a 2.5 clamp and a 255 grams weight, so those values got nothing to do with a play ready club or the FCM system.
The blanks im using (old model) got this labels/CPM butt side as RAW uncut shafts.

4.0 = 220.1
4.5 = 224.6
5.0 = 227.1
5.5 = 231.1
6.0 = 234.6
6.5 = 238.1
7.0 = 240.6

The FCM system is for the play ready club measured with a 2.5" clamp and a SW value of D3
(Headers with Iron #, is MY standard, or 0.5 plus from Rifle standard)
[attachment=1780468:FCM chart irons.PNG]

Rifle was re-designed for 2012 so now its only 4.0-5.0-6.0-7.0 and they are now to be measured with a 5.0 clamp, but still the label is RAW uncut measured with a 255 grams weight.
[/quote]

Thank you Howard, That makes sense to me now. Keep up the great work.

J

[rbhan12]

fantastic