New and Improved Shaft Chart

[97speedster]

Howard, if I play an s400 at +1/2" (38.5" five iron), how much softer will it play in frequency? I have played x100 at +1/2" for over 30 years but they feel too stiff for me these days and I have to work too hard to hit them. I tried an s300 at +1/2" but they feel too soft and I lost some control, especially when the wind blew. Project X getting stiffer as they get longer makes sense to why I never liked them, they felt boardy and had no feel....I have never tried KBS, but their online fitting tool puts me in an KBS TOUR S+ which the shaft chart puts at 6.5 FCM and I am curious what +1/2" would lower that shafts FCM to approximately? Great thread and very informative!

[Howard_Jones]

If you found S300 to soft, S400 would not change that, so my suggestion is to soft step X100
Try that for 1 iron you really play well (like your 7 or 8)

If you are able to do this yourself, you can test it with full return, without cutting any shafts.
Take a cheap grip, and cut of the butt cap so there is a hole strait trough.
Add build up and grip tape as usual, but start 0.5 down from the butt end. When you put the grip on, push it all the way down, so 0.5 comes out of the grip end. Soft stepping adds 0.5, and you dont need another 0.5, so this is the way to test SSx1 with full return if you dont like it.

[jhorandc]

Hope this is the right forum for this question. Titleist offers their 913H hybrids in a variety of shafts. Is the head weight the same for all combinations? For example is a 913H head weight with a 60g Bassara the same as one with a Diamana 72g shaft? What is the weight of the head? Does a lighter shaft normally result in a higher launch angle?

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='jhorandc' timestamp='1403183758' post='9530963']
Hope this is the right forum for this question. Titleist offers their 913H hybrids in a variety of shafts. Is the head weight the same for all combinations? For example is a 913H head weight with a 60g Bassara the same as one with a Diamana 72g shaft? What is the weight of the head? Does a lighter shaft normally result in a higher launch angle?
[/quote]

Head weight is due to LOFT, not shaft, so like with irons, head weight goes up when loft goes up
There is no standard for head weight, but there is "averages" and the numbers im using as "average" is below here, BUT, Titleist offers changeable weights from 4 to 14 grams, so you can ask for any of them. RED Color code is the standard weight who is 9 grams, so you can order it from MINUS 5 grams to PLUS 5 grams from "standard"

[attachment=2283665:Titleist weight.jpg]

My judgement of average head weight (Might be plus minus a few grams)

Driver and Woods
1W = 200 grams
2W = 205 grams
3W = 210 grams
4W = 215 grams
5W = 220 grams
7W = 230 grams

Iron/Hybrid/wedge
#1 - 230 grams
#2 - 237 grams
#3 - 244 grams
#4 - 251 grams
#5 - 258 grams
#6 - 265 grams
#7 - 272 grams
#8 - 279 grams
#9 - 286 grams
PW - 293 grams
GW - 300 grams
SW - 307 grams

[hayzooos]

Hey Howard, any chance you'll be able to update the chart in the first post with some graphite options like the Recoils, RIPs, Steelfibers, etc? Are those posted up anywhere or is it too difficult to compare steel to graphite that way?

[Sirod]

[quote name='smoky25' timestamp='1311024749' post='3402198']
Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.
[/quote]Where do Nippon and Shamada shafts fit in this chart

[savoyspecial13]

This needs to be changed from 'new and improved' to 'improved'. There are lots of new shafts missing on this chart.

[yaksta]

Howard I recently had a brief session on a Trackman hitting 6 iron only. My spin rate was up around 6500+ and the fitter suggested I could benefit from a lighter shaft and possibly a Reg flex. I currently play JPX825 with Dynalite Gold XP S300 shafts. Any suggestions on shaft that I should consider to get that spin rate down. Cheers

[Howard_Jones]

Here is a Compare of Shaft weight from Descending to Constant weight.
Weight is made comparable by lenght, and since the #6 iron is the most common used for fitting, we should use the "Comparable weight" number from that row, when we want to make a compare to Taper with Constant weight.

Example DGS 300 is 130 grams un-cut as a #6 iron at 38.50
UDGS300 is 130 grams at 41", but cut to 38.50" its "only" 122 grams, so its a different animal.

RIFLE old model is put in. Calk is made from 44 Long Tour van Blanks, so any Rifle can be compared as ive put them up ranged by weight pr inch. Rifle Flighted will have 1 flex plus weight in Long 3-4, and 1 flex minus in short 8-9-PW.

[WpgMike]

So if I'm reading this chart correctly...the KBS Tour R+ hardstepped shafts would play similar to DG S300 but with 15 grams less weight?

[hayzooos]

[quote name='WpgMike' timestamp='1412092524' post='10212029']
So if I'm reading this chart correctly...the KBS Tour R+ hardstepped shafts would play similar to DG S300 but with 15 grams less weight?
[/quote]

Similar in terms of flex, yes, similar in terms of flight...probably not. Although hardstepping the KBS Tours would bring it down a little, I'm not sure if it would be the same versus the S300s.

[WpgMike]

Just curious because I had a fitting last week where I was recommended KBS Tours in Stiff. Another option was the DG S300 but those felt way too heavy. I'm coming from CFS Regular shafts so I'm a little hesitant to go from 100 grams to 120 grams. So looking at this chart I thought maybe if I hardstep the KBS R+ I could get something close to the KBS Tour stiff but save 5 grams of weight?

[Howard_Jones]

Might be done, but we never save the hole difference..
When we hard step we use 0.5 longer shafts than normal, while when we soft step we use 0.5 inch shorter
If you take un-cut shaft weight / 37 as #9 iron, you get 115 / 37 = 3.01 grams pr inch
Stepping one way or the other give a change of 1.5 grams, so HSx1 = 116.5 grams while SS1 is 113.5 grams
If you started from KBS Tour stiff at 120 and go SS1 then its 120 minus 1.65 = 118.3 grams

[WpgMike]

Interesting, thanks for teaching me something today Howard.
Can I ask you a question. Does it make sense that bringing down spin from 6900 rpm to 6100 rpm would increase carry by almost 10 yards in a 7 iron. That's what I saw in my recent fitting and I was surprised.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='WpgMike' timestamp='1412201931' post='10219969']
Interesting, thanks for teaching me something today Howard.
Can I ask you a question. Does it make sense that bringing down spin from 6900 rpm to 6100 rpm would increase carry by almost 10 yards in a 7 iron. That's what I saw in my recent fitting and I was surprised.
[/quote]

Spin change alone cant do that, and 6100 is lower end for a 7 iron if you want to stop the ball at approach.
To get that difference in carry, BALL SPEED must be higher, thats where distance comes from.
Play around with this one, and you will see. [url="http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/"]http://flightscope.c...tory-optimizer/[/url]

If you take a test run with LPGA #7 iron numbers: (BallSp 104 .- Launch 19.0* - spin 6605)
Return say Carry 141.4 - total 150.6

With 800 lower spin at 5805
Return say Carry 142.3 - total 152.9

Carry goes up by only about yard, while roll out goes from 9.2 to 10.6 yards, so what you get it less stopping power, thats really what you get.

[WpgMike]

That makes sense. Looking at the data again my ss was higher with the 120 KBS than with the 100 gram CFS. Seems counter intuitive that my ss would be higher with the heavier shaft. For what it's worth I use 75 gram hybrid shafts and a 65 gram driver shaft and seem to get quite a bit out of those.

Mike

[Howard_Jones]

Its nothing strange about a higher club speed with a higher shaft weight. Its when the resistance of the club matches YOU the player that the team of 2 (player and club) can deliver its optimum . Going lighter = more club speed, is only correct in theory, but club fitters see the o-posit every day. It has to fit the player, its that simple, and thats why total weight/shaft weigh is as important as it is.

[WpgMike]

Thanks Howard, very informative. Something to think about for sure. I think I'd like to test the shafts one more time on the LM just to make sure, before I make a change.

[propman]

Howard,

I'm considering a set of precision rifles or rifle flighted. Is my understanding correct that precision rifle 5.0s would be very similar to precision rifle flighted 5.5 ? as respects flex stiffness. My ss (6 iron) is approx. 76.

Thanks,

[sgengaro2.5]

Very cool chart. Does anyone have a sense for where the C-Taper Light would fit? I am playing KBS Tour in Stiff and was just fitted in C Taper Lite regular. I was thinking of going with the C Taper Lite in stiff versus regular to keep spin/ball flight down a little?
Any thoughts?
Thanks!!!

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='propman' timestamp='1412309483' post='10228063']
Howard,

I'm considering a set of precision rifles or rifle flighted. Is my understanding correct that precision rifle 5.0s would be very similar to precision rifle flighted 5.5 ? as respects flex stiffness. My ss (6 iron) is approx. 76.

Thanks,
[/quote]

Yes Rifle 5.5 is FCM 5.5 no matter if they are standard or flighted, but they dont feel the same in long and short since they are "different" than standard.

[propman]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1412621226' post='10244193']
[quote name='propman' timestamp='1412309483' post='10228063']
Howard,

I'm considering a set of precision rifles or rifle flighted. Is my understanding correct that precision rifle 5.0s would be very similar to precision rifle flighted 5.5 ? as respects flex stiffness. My ss (6 iron) is approx. 76.

Thanks,
[/quote]

Yes Rifle 5.5 is FCM 5.5 no matter if they are standard or flighted, but they dont feel the same in long and short since they are "different" than standard.
[/quote]


Howard, thanks for the response. Not sure if my question was clear. I'll put it another way. Say a golfer, who hits it well with the precision rifle 5.0 but wants a little more airtime with longer irons. Which one should he opt for? The precision flighted rifles 5.0 or precision flighted rifles 5.5?

Thanks

[Howard_Jones]

They use to say,go up one flex with flighted, but there is no reason to do that since they are cut to the same flex
Long irons would be soft stepped 5.5 in a set of 5.0F and short irons is hard stepped 4.5 so weight is more descending in flighted than standard.

If all of this is only a ball flight question, tweak lofts and stay with your shafts if they work for you.
The ball dont care where loft came from, so if its more static loft, or more dynamic loft from shaft bending, its still the same "loft" we talk about, the loft delivered to the club at impact.

[dmarz911]

Howard - any idea regarding the KBS Tour 90. I played Mizuno MX-300 with DG S-300 for years, decided to change irons this year and liked the Speedblades with the 85g S shaft. After a short period of time realized this was a bad decision and went to a clubfitter with a Trackman and every imaginable head and shaft for the first time. To my surprise, they fit me into Apex Pro heads with KBS Tour 90, R shafts (but they were the best combo I hit in the 1.5 hours I was testing irons). Special ordered them from Callaway and they arrived with KBS Tour 90 in S flex. Callaway said they don't carry R flex in the KBS Tour 90 so they softstepped them one time. My local retailer that handled the order said they would change the shafts to R's at no charge. Hit the current shafts and they seem pretty good in height, distance, and dispersion. What could I expect moving to the 7 gram lighter R flex, in a true R flex, if anything? Thanks

[Wardonation]

Howard I have a question? Currently play KBS Ctaper 120 ssx1. I have always liked the feel of the KBS Tour but spin was way to high. My spin with Ctaper a touch low 5600rpm with 6iron. If I get the KBS Tour V in a 120 how many times will I have to soft step to get too 5.9 cpm at standard length? If I have to goo ssx2 will the spin be an issue for me? Thank youo as always...

[Howard_Jones]

Im not familiar with KBS Tour 90, or KBS V120, and i have no comparable specs for them either so i cant help much here.

Regarding spin and soft stepping, IF that adds dynamic loft from your swing, it will add spin, but it all depends on your own swing, and ability to add dynamic loft from a late release. If your release is mid way in the swing, nothing happens, unless feel of flex changes your swing and access to the ball. Tech specs alone can only be judged "all else equal", but since feel of flex DOES influence on the way you swing the club, there is only 1 way to find out whats going to happen, and thats by real life testing.

As a club fitter ive seen "high launch" shafts who makes launch and spin to drop, and low launch shafts who adds spin and launch. Its all a question about the players respons to the shaft, so those "labels" is only valid if we put this clubs in the hands of a robot who dont care about weight and feel of flex, but swing "like always" no matter what. As humans we adjust to the club we play, and thats what makes shaft fitting so exiting, we have to try "both ways" before we know whats right for THIS player.

[dmarz911]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1412852664' post='10259263']
Im not familiar with KBS Tour 90, or KBS V120, and i have no comparable specs for them either so i cant help much here.

Regarding spin and soft stepping, IF that adds dynamic loft from your swing, it will add spin, but it all depends on your own swing, and ability to add dynamic loft from a late release. If your release is mid way in the swing, nothing happens, unless feel of flex changes your swing and access to the ball. Tech specs alone can only be judged "all else equal", but since feel of flex DOES influence on the way you swing the club, there is only 1 way to find out whats going to happen, and thats by real life testing.

As a club fitter ive seen "high launch" shafts who makes launch and spin to drop, and low launch shafts who adds spin and launch. Its all a question about the players respons to the shaft, so those "labels" is only valid if we put this clubs in the hands of a robot who dont care about weight and feel of flex, but swing "like always" no matter what. As humans we adjust to the club we play, and thats what makes shaft fitting so exiting, we have to try "both ways" before we know whats right for THIS player.
[/quote]

Thanks Howard. I go back to finish my fitting for my woods tonight and I am going to hit the irons again.

[Howard_Jones]

If you are in doubt about weight range, my chart for shaft weight progression might be help full.
Its based om my knowledge about "Club balance" who got NOTHING to do with swing weight.
We all know that a shaft to light will make it "invisible", the same with a head weight to low, so its important that we can feel both head and shaft during the swing, and to make that happen, we need shaft weight progression trough out the bag.

If you have a favorite club in you bag, no matter what club that is, find that club and the shaft weight it got uncut, and you have my suggestion for "matching " un-cut shaft weight for the rest of your bag in the same row. Ive used that chart for a few hundred players, and i cant improve it further, it works as it is, and i have not been more than plus minus 5 grams from my suggested ideal.
Use the chart to find a good starting point, it will eliminate candidates who by weight is off limit and dont match your favorite club.


[attachment=2453441:Shaft weight progression.PNG]

[Aviador Naval]

Howard, the above is very useful.

Could you check my logic to ensure I'm in the right column for consideration?

Two clubs that I am extremely comfortable with are a 44" Titleist 913D3 (14gr black weight) and a 65 gram Tour Green (listed as 66gr at 46" on their website) and a 24 deg 913h (9gr red weight) at 38.5" with the Tour Green 85gr hybrid shaft.

So, based on your chart, am I correct in assuming a good starting point would be 123-127 uncut and D2 for irons?

Appreciate your time and expertise. I have access to a quality builder but not a quality fitter so I usually end up trying to make an educated guess and then proceeding along the trial and error route with single built demo clubs from the same head.

[SuperPapaBear]

Howard, this chart is fantastic. Is there anything similar out there comparing Nippon shafts to the three already listed? I'm curious how the N.S Pro 950GH compare to C-Tapers.

Thanks,
SPB