New and Improved Shaft Chart

[rymail00]

[attachment=2528227:image.jpg]


Like I said I'm just going off what you said and this chart. Would it be safe ti say PX 5.5 SS1 would be a slightly stiffer and slightly lower launching then PXF 5.0? Kinda on between all PXF5.0 and PXF 5.5?

Like I said I am totally guessing and "trying" to understand things lol.

Let me know if I'm totally off.

Thanks HJ!
Ryan

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='rymail00' timestamp='1418092310' post='10565257']
[attachment=2528227:image.jpg]


Like I said I'm just going off what you said and this chart. Would it be safe ti say PX 5.5 SS1 would be a slightly stiffer and slightly lower launching then PXF 5.0? Kinda on between all PXF5.0 and PXF 5.5?

Like I said I am totally guessing and "trying" to understand things lol.

Let me know if I'm totally off.

Thanks HJ!
Ryan
[/quote]

More or less yes, but again how do we judge flex? PX5.0F would have a slightly stiffer upper and lower butt section, but softer mid and tip section, so the 5.0F would on the paper still be the highest launching profile of them, but we are so close i guess we can only see that in a robot test. The number differences is within what is a normal variable from shaft to shaft in production.

BUT dont forget that Flighted only have this pattern in LONG irons, not mid and short, so you will be adding launch to MID and SHORT vs PX 5.0F. If that sounds good go for it, but if its a SET of irons that play close to 5.0F you should go PXi 6.0 or PXi 6.5

[rymail00]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1418109526' post='10566117']
[quote name='rymail00' timestamp='1418092310' post='10565257']
[attachment=2528227:image.jpg]


Like I said I'm just going off what you said and this chart. Would it be safe ti say PX 5.5 SS1 would be a slightly stiffer and slightly lower launching then PXF 5.0? Kinda on between all PXF5.0 and PXF 5.5?

Like I said I am totally guessing and "trying" to understand things lol.

Let me know if I'm totally off.

Thanks HJ!
Ryan
[/quote]

More or less yes, but again how do we judge flex? PX5.0F would have a slightly stiffer upper and lower butt section, but softer mid and tip section, so the 5.0F would on the paper still be the highest launching profile of them, but we are so close i guess we can only see that in a robot test. The number differences is within what is a normal variable from shaft to shaft in production.

BUT dont forget that Flighted only have this pattern in LONG irons, not mid and short, so you will be adding launch to MID and SHORT vs PX 5.0F. If that sounds good go for it, but if its a SET of irons that play close to 5.0F you should go PXi 6.0 or PXi 6.5
[/quote]

Ok thanks again HJ. That makes sense, that mid and short would now go higher due to SS1. I wasn't taking that into consideration, that's definitely not what Im after.

Well since I already have the PX 5.5 I think I'm going to try them straight in. My current gamers for the last 3 years have been the Adams A4 tours with PX 5.0F. I also just got a brand new set of A4 Tours in the mail today actually, and I'm going to put the PX 5.5 straight in and do a bunch of head to head comparisons on the range, then decide if I want to try the PX 5.0, or just put some PX 5.0F and have them be the exact same as my old set (current gamers), whenever spring finally gets here.

I guess that's really the only way I'm going to be able to tell. I was hoping one of those charts would of gave me the answer I wanted but like you said different bend profiles and other factors really makes comparing the PX to PXF not really as clear cut as I thought.

[JL529]

Had to say thank you. You just saved me a lot of time

[JL529]

God, I come to post so often. is it downloadable?

[kobes31]

I posted this a while ago and I'm curious if someone can answer it:

Any ideas where the px flighted or dg pros would fit in?  Also, I've seen the px flighted are descending weight, are dg pros also?  And exactly what effect does this have on how the shaft plays?

[Howard_Jones]

Descending weight means heavy long irons and light short irons. We start from the same shaft, so by nature shorter will have less weight. DG PRO is a in-between thing. still descending but not with as much difference as a descending weight shaft in the same range.

I will NOT answer anymore questions about "where do this shaft fit in" because you are not able to use that info to anything when we are talking FCM or butt CPM alone, we have to judge the shaft as a hole before it makes any sense to others than club makers.
Read this post and you will see what i mean, and why Butt CPM alone is useless.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/496072-new-and-improved-shaft-chart/page__st__390#entry10560963"]http://www.golfwrx.c...<br /><br />[/url]


se Hirekos list if you want a good compare to "all others"
[url="http://www.hirekogolf.com/media/pdf/2014SFAchapter5.pdf"]http://www.hirekogol...SFAchapter5.pdf[/url]

[rmdmarshall]

Where can I get a primer on the acronyms in the chart? As a novice, I find the discussion fascinating, but need help understanding what is is saying.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='rmdmarshall' timestamp='1418509185' post='10589105']
Where can I get a primer on the acronyms in the chart? As a novice, I find the discussion fascinating, but need help understanding what is is saying.
[/quote]

Sorry but im not sure i understand your question
Is it the chart on page 1 ?
Thats a chart who shows butt CPM strength (Cycles pr minute) rated as FCM or the flex system invented by and for RIFLE FCM shafts
The FCM system is perfect to evaluate 2 Rifle FCM shafts since thats what its made for, but when we try to use it on other shafts, we really do a mistake since no other shafts than Rifle FCM is designed to be judged that way where the strength on the butt part only decides what flex strength that shaft is. (FCM is short for [color=#282828]frequency coefficient matched)[/color]

Like in the link i posted above we will misjudge the actual flex of the shaft as a hole, so its mostly misleading for others than club makers and might give someone the impression that a shaft who measure 5.5 is stiffer than another who measure 5.2, but judged as a hole shaft it can be totally oposit, so if its used to judge feel of flex or ball flight we are way outside what it can be used for.

To judge a shaft we should use deflection or zone flex like in Tom Wishons software, where iron shafts is measured at 6 points, and graphite woods at 7 points, not only 1 the butt like the FCM system does.

[rymail00]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1418511887' post='10589307']
[quote name='rmdmarshall' timestamp='1418509185' post='10589105']
Where can I get a primer on the acronyms in the chart? As a novice, I find the discussion fascinating, but need help understanding what is is saying.
[/quote]

Sorry but im not sure i understand your question
Is it the chart on page 1 ?
Thats a chart who shows butt CPM strength (Cycles pr minute) rated as FCM or the flex system invented by and for RIFLE FCM shafts
The FCM system is perfect to evaluate 2 Rifle FCM shafts since thats what its made for, but when we try to use it on other shafts, we really do a mistake since no other shafts than Rifle FCM is designed to be judged that way where the strength on the butt part only decides what flex strength that shaft is. (FCM is short for [color=#282828]frequency coefficient matched)[/color]

Like in the link i posted above we will misjudge the actual flex of the shaft as a hole, so its mostly misleading for others than club makers and might give someone the impression that a shaft who measure 5.5 is stiffer than another who measure 5.2, but judged as a hole shaft it can be totally oposit, so if its used to judge feel of flex or ball flight we are way outside what it can be used for.

To judge a shaft we should use deflection or zone flex like in Tom Wishons software, where iron shafts is measured at 6 points, and graphite woods at 7 points, not only 1 the butt like the FCM system does.
[/quote]


Ahhh......this post should be added to the original first post above the chart. Because this would help explain the chart, and let people know that the chart is only measuring just the butt stiffness.

I have always heard of CPM, but FCM. That's why I was slightly confused. Now knowing that FCM is system made by, and for Rifle only shafts now helps explain it even more.

This is why I was confused when people before (many months ago) were measuring driver shafts by CPM, because that only measures butt stiffness. Didn't Matrix used to label their shafts with the CPM on the shaft stickers on the butt or something? I might be wrong about that, but for some reason that's been stuck in my mind for awhile.

[rmdmarshall]

Thank you for clarifying.

[pierso2]

Not sure if this was mentioned somewhere in here but any idea if the Fujikura MCI's play true to weight and flex or stronger?

[drvrwdge]

Quick question. I got fitted this weekend. Long time x100 user with a 97 mph 6i SS. When put in a c taper s my spin dropped about 2000 rpm. Crazy I know but it happened in every head I tried. Apparently with my late release I never really he the shaft to kick with the x100's but my question is, is that because of the bend profile of the dynamic gold vs the c taper is the stiffness?

[hayzooos]

[quote name='drvrwdge' timestamp='1423438553' post='10913393']
Quick question. I got fitted this weekend. Long time x100 user with a 97 mph 6i SS. When put in a c taper s my spin dropped about 2000 rpm. Crazy I know but it happened in every head I tried. Apparently with my late release I never really he the shaft to kick with the x100's but my question is, is that because of the bend profile of the dynamic gold vs the c taper is the stiffness?
[/quote]

I would guess it has more to do with the shaft profile than anything else. When the C-Tapers first came out, they were being touted as some of the lowest launching and spinning iron shafts created. That's why people on this board flocked to them

I played them for about four years or so, and I always had pretty low spin with my irons as well, relatively speaking. Somewhere in the 4500rpm range with a 6 iron. Professionals will like to see that number up closer to 6000, but that's more because of the greens they play on. Tabletops. Most of us don't need that much spin on the irons for the courses we play as the greens are much softer and slower than they typically play on the PGA Tour.

[drvrwdge]

So I have been looking at the EI shaft review stuff and I am correct in reading that the C Taper and Project X have a similar bend profile which is different then the Dynamic Gold?

[afrodandtm]

Just bookmarked this chart, thank you for the post!

[KeithM38]

Would anyone agree to this... a Mizuno rep told me that if I liked the KBS Tour-v then I should just hard step the tour irons to make them like the V's. Need your input to see if I'll be buying better irons for the mp4s I'm getting

Thanks in advance

[Hmmm13]

[quote name='smoky25' timestamp='1311024749' post='3402198']
Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.
[/quote]thanks for this

[Hmmm13]

[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1423591393' post='10925469']
[quote name='drvrwdge' timestamp='1423438553' post='10913393']
Quick question. I got fitted this weekend. Long time x100 user with a 97 mph 6i SS. When put in a c taper s my spin dropped about 2000 rpm. Crazy I know but it happened in every head I tried. Apparently with my late release I never really he the shaft to kick with the x100's but my question is, is that because of the bend profile of the dynamic gold vs the c taper is the stiffness?
[/quote]

I would guess it has more to do with the shaft profile than anything else. When the C-Tapers first came out, they were being touted as some of the lowest launching and spinning iron shafts created. That's why people on this board flocked to them

I played them for about four years or so, and I always had pretty low spin with my irons as well, relatively speaking. Somewhere in the 4500rpm range with a 6 iron. Professionals will like to see that number up closer to 6000, but that's more because of the greens they play on. Tabletops. Most of us don't need that much spin on the irons for the courses we play as the greens are much softer and slower than they typically play on the PGA Tour.
[/quote]good answer i would agree 100%

[drvrwdge]

[quote name='Hmmm13' timestamp='1424996141' post='11035955']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1423591393' post='10925469']
[quote name='drvrwdge' timestamp='1423438553' post='10913393']
Quick question. I got fitted this weekend. Long time x100 user with a 97 mph 6i SS. When put in a c taper s my spin dropped about 2000 rpm. Crazy I know but it happened in every head I tried. Apparently with my late release I never really he the shaft to kick with the x100's but my question is, is that because of the bend profile of the dynamic gold vs the c taper is the stiffness?
[/quote]

I would guess it has more to do with the shaft profile than anything else. When the C-Tapers first came out, they were being touted as some of the lowest launching and spinning iron shafts created. That's why people on this board flocked to them

I played them for about four years or so, and I always had pretty low spin with my irons as well, relatively speaking. Somewhere in the 4500rpm range with a 6 iron. Professionals will like to see that number up closer to 6000, but that's more because of the greens they play on. Tabletops. Most of us don't need that much spin on the irons for the courses we play as the greens are much softer and slower than they typically play on the PGA Tour.
[/quote]good answer i would agree 100%
[/quote]

How does the bend profile of the PX and C Taper compare?

[rymail00]

[quote name='drvrwdge' timestamp='1424999001' post='11036277']
[quote name='Hmmm13' timestamp='1424996141' post='11035955']
[quote name='hayzooos' timestamp='1423591393' post='10925469']
[quote name='drvrwdge' timestamp='1423438553' post='10913393']
Quick question. I got fitted this weekend. Long time x100 user with a 97 mph 6i SS. When put in a c taper s my spin dropped about 2000 rpm. Crazy I know but it happened in every head I tried. Apparently with my late release I never really he the shaft to kick with the x100's but my question is, is that because of the bend profile of the dynamic gold vs the c taper is the stiffness?
[/quote]

I would guess it has more to do with the shaft profile than anything else. When the C-Tapers first came out, they were being touted as some of the lowest launching and spinning iron shafts created. That's why people on this board flocked to them

I played them for about four years or so, and I always had pretty low spin with my irons as well, relatively speaking. Somewhere in the 4500rpm range with a 6 iron. Professionals will like to see that number up closer to 6000, but that's more because of the greens they play on. Tabletops. Most of us don't need that much spin on the irons for the courses we play as the greens are much softer and slower than they typically play on the PGA Tour.
[/quote]good answer i would agree 100%
[/quote]

How does the bend profile of the PX and C Taper compare?
[/quote]

+1

I've been playing PX Flighted, and just put some reg PX but went .5 in flex. Definitely interested to hear the comparison from people who've hut both.

[JaketheJack]

Thank you for this

[PlatinumNike]

[quote name='JaketheJack' timestamp='1425338371' post='11064131']
Thank you for this
[/quote]
Guns Up!

[tercoidegw]

Howard:

3 weeks ago I did my 1st fitting with this numbers:

6iron SS84mph,
Tempo 1.15seg
Not much lag


C-Taper 120 S was the recomendation, but I lose distance on the last third on the course. I played S300 but allways strugled with long irons, It was a bad fit?

Followed your Fit guide:
84mph -> 5.4
slow tempo, not much lag, -0.2 ???
Should I look for something at 5.2??

S300 ss, or R300hs?

Thnks in advance.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='tercoidegw' timestamp='1426041858' post='11119109']
Howard:

3 weeks ago I did my 1st fitting with this numbers:

6iron SS84mph,
Tempo 1.15seg
Not much lag


C-Taper 120 S was the recomendation, but I lose distance on the last third on the course. I played S300 but allways strugled with long irons, It was a bad fit?

Followed your Fit guide:
84mph -> 5.4
slow tempo, not much lag, -0.2 ???
Should I look for something at 5.2??

S300 ss, or R300hs?

Thnks in advance.
[/quote]

I dont have much to base this on, and you dont explain what you mean by "long irons"
A club speed of 84 using a #6 iron will i many cases be less than needed to make a #3 iron with a loft of 21 to get up an fly like we want it to, and IMO, a shaft alone is not the way to solve it.

The ball dont care where loft comes from, so if its a shaft who bends forward against the ball and add dynamic loft, or if its the club head who is bent weak, we still talk LOFT, and just like i just said, the ball have no idea where that loft came from.

My suggestion is quite simple when we talk shafts and fitting in general

Start with shaft weight, and DONT use shaft weight to tweak ball flight even if many suggest go lighter to raise ball flight. Shaft weight is way to important for both tempo timing and your ability to pure it, so dont mess with it for other reasons.

Next is profile and flex. DG is low launch, but if thats the profile who both feels right and work in dispersion matters, keep it, its no reason to change a winning team.

That leave us with 4 options to "solve" the "long iron issue"
- Simplest solution is to tweak static loft to make them go higher
- More advanced would be to get the set MOI matched, since resistance in long irons as SW match often becomes to high so the natural club speed progression dont come, but might stop at your #5 or #4 iron, and then irons with no club speed progression is hard to get up flying, even with more static loft. In a MOI matched set the actual resistance is the same on all irons, and thats beneficial not only for swing tempo and your ability to pure it, but the natural club speed progression as we go longer comes along with it.
- 3 option is using a lighter higher launching shaft ONLY for those long irons with this issue (not a usual solution but possible)
- 4 option is to accept you dont play those long irons good enough to benefit you, and change them with hybrid clubs.

I know it was not the answer you was looking for, but this is really the best answer i can give you since i dont know you as a player, your need for shaft weight and preference for feel, but now you have an idea what can be done to solve your long iron issue.

[drvrwdge]

Howard,

I had asked a few posts ago but could you compare the profiles of the c taper, dynamic gold and PX?

I was fitted away from dg x100's into c taper S since I have a very moderate tempo and late release yet a 6i SS of 93mph. Was wondering if it was more the flex or bend profile? Like would I have been ok going to an s300 or was it the c taper itself?

[tercoidegw]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1426160720' post='11127349']


I dont have much to base this on, and you dont explain what you mean by "long irons"
A club speed of 84 using a #6 iron will i many cases be less than needed to make a #3 iron with a loft of 21 to get up an fly like we want it to, and IMO, a shaft alone is not the way to solve it.

The ball dont care where loft comes from, so if its a shaft who bends forward against the ball and add dynamic loft, or if its the club head who is bent weak, we still talk LOFT, and just like i just said, the ball have no idea where that loft came from.

My suggestion is quite simple when we talk shafts and fitting in general

Start with shaft weight, and DONT use shaft weight to tweak ball flight even if many suggest go lighter to raise ball flight. Shaft weight is way to important for both tempo timing and your ability to pure it, so dont mess with it for other reasons.

Next is profile and flex. DG is low launch, but if thats the profile who both feels right and work in dispersion matters, keep it, its no reason to change a winning team.

That leave us with 4 options to "solve" the "long iron issue"
- Simplest solution is to tweak static loft to make them go higher
- More advanced would be to get the set MOI matched, since resistance in long irons as SW match often becomes to high so the natural club speed progression dont come, but might stop at your #5 or #4 iron, and then irons with no club speed progression is hard to get up flying, even with more static loft. In a MOI matched set the actual resistance is the same on all irons, and thats beneficial not only for swing tempo and your ability to pure it, but the natural club speed progression as we go longer comes along with it.
- 3 option is using a lighter higher launching shaft ONLY for those long irons with this issue (not a usual solution but possible)
- 4 option is to accept you dont play those long irons good enough to benefit you, and change them with hybrid clubs.

I know it was not the answer you was looking for, but this is really the best answer i can give you since i dont know you as a player, your need for shaft weight and preference for feel, but now you have an idea what can be done to solve your long iron issue.
[/quote]

Thanks for answering!

This is my swing :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXljo8y3emc

Full average data with the 6iron: Callaway Apex MB + Ctaper 120 S , 175yds, 6500rpm, pretty strigth, medium high

For sure a 4th will be my last iron on the bag, but no less that that because I need to get off the woods often.

Looks like a fligthed shaft set up to the 4th, and possibly MOI matched is the best option based on all your suggestions.
What about the new DG Pro S300?
Here in Argentina I do my own clubmaking, as the net one is 1.000km away.

Played at Rungsted once! , are you there?? Love DK, have a brother there.

[Howard_Jones]

DG Pro might work, if you are comfortable about a shaft in the 120 grams range, but if the video was taken when you played DGS300, it does not seem like you are in the need for a lighter shaft, but "what ever works" AND feel right, and gives the dispersion you as a sum is comfortable playing is the right choice. They might work better for you than DGS300 and you always have the option of a little loft tweak. If you do it all by yourself, and whats help for MOI matching or progressive SW, just open up another tread and ask for help to what ever you need help for. Im quite a bit from Rungsted, far up in North Jutland.

[TMBob]

Wish the "new and improved" chart would include C Taper Lite and PXi

Or at least tell us how they play FM wise ( + or - ) against C Taper and PX so we could use the current chart to figure out the rest.

[Joe Salas]

Hello all,

This is the best place to ask this question. My son knocked over my golf bag without me knowing and it was leaning against a wall for a couple of days. Not to happy about that.

My question is, when I found the bag, the bag was primarily leaning on my driver and 3 wood. My bag is heavy and I was wondering if the weight of my bag can cause the graphite shafts in my driver and 3 wood to bend and stay bent? I have the Nike 2.0 divert and 3 wood, I took the heads off and inspected the shafts but I can't tell. This is really driving me crazy. I was wondering if any one had a way of checking if a shaft is bent or information to see if this is even possible.

Please help!