Sandbaggers should die

[DemolitionMan]

Perhaps we should first have a poll as to what is really sandbagging in a golf tournament so we do not accidentally kill an innocent person. Exaggerating your index by more than three strokes? More? Less?

 

I won't go into details about my recent tournament experience because overall I had a great time, it's the best tournament I have ever played in for two years running. And I hate tournaments, so it's got to be a good one to get me to enter. This past one is the best.

 

Still, I don't see how any decent human being can spend their day being such a bold liar. You shoot a net 60 in a stroke play tournament and I am sorry, but you should die. It is not a time for celebration even though you just defied the odds by greater than 37000 to 1. Instead of your so called friends clapping, they should turn their backs in shame. How do you look at yourself in the mirror? How do you face children?

 

Lying at a golf tournament is probably the least of your sins, therefore please find the nearest cliff and jump off. You would be doing the world a favor. It's not that I care about how it affects my standing in the tournament. I don't care, it is not what I am there for, but that does not mean I like to see talented junior golfers get exposed to how adults can be total liars and have a jovial drink over it. It's despicable and sets a very poor example.

 

I know these threads have been all over golf internet boards for quite some time. The details change, but the story is the same. Perhaps it is about time for all of us to quit letting the cheaters get away with it and start calling them out.

 

Take an oath here. Next time you see a net 60 or better win a tournament, call that person out in front of everybody. Label them a liar and a cheat, and ask your fellow golfers to join in and turn their backs. Maybe if this happens enough, the outrageous lying will slow down a bit. I know it will never stop completely, but it sure would be nice to have a few tournaments out there get saved.

[alpha_pro]

the last time i played in my boss' club the winner shot a net 53 and the second place shot a net 58!!! now that was bad. tell me now, how does a 30+ handicap shoot in the mid to low 80's?? and there i was having a bad day already shooting horrible. ;)

[DemolitionMan]

the last time i played in my boss' club the winner shot a net 53 and the second place shot a net 58!!! now that was bad. tell me now, how does a 30+ handicap shoot in the mid to low 80's?? and there i was having a bad day already shooting horrible. ;)

 

Odds of a 30 handicap breaking 100, 30 to 1. Breaking 90? Off the charts.

[icemakr]

Demo,

 

Tell us how you really feel!!! ;)

 

 

Get any nice SWAG?

[choeppner]

I agree with you. I've played in more than my fair share of Tourneys, and it sucks when they are there. I used to play in a mens blitz twice a week. You had me going out there having to get 36 points, and some of my playing partners only needing 22. One of the guys claimed he was a 13 handicap, but somehow always shot close to par. Needless to say, I stopped playing inthe Blitzes

 

-CHRIS-

[MrParr1Noid]

WHAT? WHAT? Just because I'm a 13 doesn't mean that I can't get lucky once or twice a week (mostly tourneys) and shoot par?? I mean, sometimes I get lucky, why would anyone want to penalize me just for that. ;)

[cdesana]

hi,

 

the handicap system is in serious need of an overhaul. that said its to each person who plays with a sandbagger to make sure he or she records all scores.

 

there are som many sandbaggers, its getting tougher all the time to put together a fair game, even if just for a small wager.

 

cjd

[MrParr1Noid]

I agree with the last poster, our handicap system needs to record all our scores, whether they be high or low. In a given period of time so many scores need to be posted to satisfy the handicap balance.

 

In our area I stay with most who are within my handicap range, where as when I used to go south and play, there were handicaps equal to mine who kicked my rear all the time. They might have had local knowledge and were just in better shape then I was. ;)

[FlyFish]

The USGA should start a blacklist for players that continue to "defy the odds."

[Boba]

Why would you play in a flighted tournament, the winner is always the biggest sandbagger. Play in the scratch division & you don't have to worry about net anything. That being said, Sandbaggers should recieve a trophy that reads "You will recieve your death from our tournament director inverting a 2 iron in your head if you pull this crap again, you F&^#$*! cheat"

& a swift kick to the front of their pants as the prize.

[AcesAZ]

Even though I'm a plus I won't give out strokes unless I have played with that person before and know they are not a bagger. In fact I don't like getting strokes either. I'd rather take anyone on straight up. If you beat someone with strokes it's a joke IMO. Most of the players I play with feel the same way.

 

I also don't play in handicapped tourneys. Even besides the baggers I don't have a chance.

 

I also have an issue with players who do post all of there rounds but do NOT give 100 percent during the round. I feel you must try on every shot of every round. I think these guys are baggers just as much as the people who knowingly cheat.

[rybo]

I agree sandbaggers should be called out. A net 53, that's simply impossible. I belong to an amateur tour here in Florida and it is strictly gross scores only. The way it should be! This also shows you who keeps a legit handicap since those with handicaps at 5 and under are in the championship flight and often the new members who are "2 handicappers" have a hard time breaking 80. That's why I only enter tournament scores for my handicap.

 

On another note, my father in law is someone who is a legit 19-21 handicapper, he is in his 60's and doesn't hit the ball very far. However, I have played in two tournaments with him where he played like he was in a trance. I'm a legit + handicap player and saw him shoot a 79 for a net 60 at the time. He had something like 14 one putts for the round. I literally did not help on a single hole.

 

Another time was in the member-guest tourney at his club. It's a series of 9 hole matches by flight. He shot 38 for one of the 9's. Of course this was bookended by a 51 and 47. So it can happen. I've played over a 100 rounds of golf with him and never saw him come close to those two scores.

[PowerPenguin]

Sandbagging is cheating IMO. I think a ban for an extended period of time should be the punishment.

 

Luckily, it doesn't happen too much in the UK. I have seen it a few times in junior open competitions (as well as all manner of rule breaking and 'miscounting') unfortunately. I always do my best to subtley correct the rule breaking and miscounting, but there isn't much you can do about the sandbaggers without looking like a sore loser. ;)

 

Dave

[TourPro]

This is a great thread and the exact reason I quit playing in hadicapped event before I turned pro. Golf is a game of honor, and one of the last games where honor and fairness have a place. SANDBAGGERS SUCK.

[ryanpgm]

Sandbagging is bad, but IMO "vanity golfers" are much worse to play with. I can't believe I just made 4 triples in a row, I am a 4 handicap. Yea right, just the bitching that goes on when you play with one of them is absolutely ridiculous.

[smarshal75]

What do you do when you're forced to play at a lower handicap than you actually are versus a guy who bags? The most frustrating tourney I played in was a mens club event at a course I worked at. At the time, I didn't have an official handicap, although I probably played at a 10 to 12. I was paired against a guy who was listed as an 18 with me being forced to play as a 5 (where the club director came up with a 5 I have no clue). I was young so I didn't pitch a fit. Needless to say, I got my Word not allowed kicked. This guy was definitely not an 18. I was so pissed, I refused to play in any more events.

 

For me, I have always been to embarassed to ask for strokes, so I usually play straight up. I know the handicap system is intended to even the playing field, but seriously the system is screwed when it can be so easily manipulated.

[stasek]

After starting playing last August, I joined a local men's club, which holds weekly tournaments. The rule is that before you reach 12 rounds played at that course, your handicap was lowered by 10%, so while my real handicap was 20, I was forced to play off 18. My 12th game, I shot an 80, for a net 62 (should have been 60) - my handicap goes to 17. After that, I stopped playing at the club for good couple months. During that time, my game progressed quite nicely (practice and lessons) and shooting low to mid 80 (during unofficial rounds) became more of a rule then exception. I decide to go back to the club to play couple more rounds before end of season (you need at least 20 between certain dates to qualify for big $$$ tournaments). First time back, another 80 for net 63 - now my hanicap is at 15.

Here's a problem - for handicaping purposes, the club uses ONLY the scores from tournaments held at this particular course. Looking at these rounds only, my index is 15, but when I look at my unoffocial index (kept on Yahoo), I've been playing to a 12 (and dropping)...

[TigerStrong]

Every once in awhile a guy will have a great day and will play better than he is supposed to. So here is a rule that a pro friend of mine likes and I agree what do you guys think?

-A guys net score must not be lower than the course record. If its below the course record he is a sandbagger.

[emc]

In my case that's very false, Trotgolfer. Our course record is only 67 (albeit by a 5 handicapper, off the tips in a medal) but you regularly need net 67 just to get top 3. On any given day out of 150 players, someone will go berserk and play unreal

[Golfchicago]

Vanity handicappers are reverse sandbaggers and it sucks when you get them on your team. Sandbaggers are cheaters and need to be banned from tournament and mioney play, it is that simple.

[AirTime23]

Just out curiosity what exactly constitutes "sandbagging"? Starting with a beneficial handicap, cheating during the round or both?

I could understand the second and it surely can happen anytime. But the first seems rather funny. Here in Germany the first is probably impossible to archieve. Handicaps are stored centrally by the German golf association and by my local club. Whenever I go somewhere else to play a handicapped tourney they get the handicap from the DGV intranet. Usually this system is used for all tourneys not only the handicapped ones, but I'm not 100% sure of that. Of course there are way less golfers in Germany (about 500k) than in the US.

[PhilSA]

Little dumb question from a South African. What's sandbagging? Similar to a ringer?

[Teetogreen86]

Little dumb question from a South African. What's sandbagging? Similar to a ringer?

 

Basically it means to downplay or misrepresent one's ability in a game or activity in order to deceive (someone), especially in gambling.

 

So basically if you're a 25 handicap with your buddies, but come tournament time you're always shooting the in low 80's, then something is wrong with that picture.

[PhilSA]

ok. We call them ringers in South Africa.

 

It remains a major issue in tournaments.

 

We've had lots of discussions about changing the h/c system, but the fact remain that doesn't help how good the system is, you will always find cheats.

 

In our comps h/c between 13 - 16 are the dangerous ones.

[NPVWhiz]

Perhaps we should first have a poll as to what is really sandbagging in a golf tournament so we do not accidentally kill an innocent person. Exaggerating your index by more than three strokes? More? Less?

 

I won't go into details about my recent tournament experience because overall I had a great time, it's the best tournament I have ever played in for two years running. And I hate tournaments, so it's got to be a good one to get me to enter. This past one is the best.

 

Still, I don't see how any decent human being can spend their day being such a bold liar. You shoot a net 60 in a stroke play tournament and I am sorry, but you should die. It is not a time for celebration even though you just defied the odds by greater than 37000 to 1. Instead of your so called friends clapping, they should turn their backs in shame. How do you look at yourself in the mirror? How do you face children?

 

Lying at a golf tournament is probably the least of your sins, therefore please find the nearest cliff and jump off. You would be doing the world a favor. It's not that I care about how it affects my standing in the tournament. I don't care, it is not what I am there for, but that does not mean I like to see talented junior golfers get exposed to how adults can be total liars and have a jovial drink over it. It's despicable and sets a very poor example.

 

I know these threads have been all over golf internet boards for quite some time. The details change, but the story is the same. Perhaps it is about time for all of us to quit letting the cheaters get away with it and start calling them out.

 

Take an oath here. Next time you see a net 60 or better win a tournament, call that person out in front of everybody. Label them a liar and a cheat, and ask your fellow golfers to join in and turn their backs. Maybe if this happens enough, the outrageous lying will slow down a bit. I know it will never stop completely, but it sure would be nice to have a few tournaments out there get saved.

 

The problem with these people, and I've seen many, is that for some reason their T scores just don't seem to get posted or they eventually just get washed away by the number of others.

 

I've known people who keep two cards at two different clubs, with an index difference of 7 or 8 strokes. In my area, where there is a very healthy amateur playing season, I've seen many instances where I know that certain people are playing frequently, but you can't find the scores on GHIN.

 

But I understand their view of it...in that it's supposed to be up to the handicap committee at the individual club, but who does their job in that respect anymore these days? Maybe at Champions and a few other purist clubs, but for the most part, I don't think the handicap committee at my local TPC gives a rat's keister about sandbaggers.

 

I'd rather play scratch anyway, even though I don't have the game for it. I'd get much more satisfaction out of finishing in the top 20 of a scratch tournament than winning the third flight. But how many of us are there? I would much prefer to play a competitive event on the weekends with strangers (who are like minded) than smack it around the local muni from the white tees with my boss. I do the latter and I put on a good show at it, but my mind isn't in it.

 

If the system worked properly though, sandbaggers wouldn't be able to exist. If the USGA made T scores permanent, or at least had some adjustment so that people that miraculously shoot in the 70s when it means something had a "tournament adjustment" to their index, these folks would be exposed.

[MacMia]

could not agree with you more- my club is filled with 11 handicaps who happen to shoot 75(or better) gross in the handicap tournaments... same guys who happen to finish bogey-double-double afer winning the weekend matches 4 and 3.. absolutely disgusting in my opinion...

[Hifade]

Guys,

 

This is an age old problem that may never go away. It's a game of honor that's not played very honorablly by many people, for the sake of winning when they can. It is disgusting and we all agree it's a huge problem. I've tried for years to come up with a more fair hdcp system that people of all skill levels could play fairly together but so far, no luck. So, let's hear it. What don't we try to collectively come up with some answer.....some new system....something that makes sense.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the hdcp system should bring your score back to par (or the course rating) because that's what a scratch player can generally shoot. Not something that allows for scores in the upper 50's and lower 60's ALL THE TIME.

 

Thoughts???

[Diesel]

i've never played in a tourney, but have heard other that have complaining about this issue...

 

i just don't see how it can be curbed, simply cause it's an honor thing... unfortunately people want to win at whatever they do, if they don't have the ability to do so, they will try and find another way...

 

golf is one of those things that you can make up fro ability, by cheating...

 

i play with a few guys that constantly shave strokes off holes throughout the round... it gets hard to keep track of them too, when they are 50 yards off center of the fairway hacking through the rough...

 

it doesn't bother me when we play, but if i was in a tourney, it would be hard to ignore...

[tpariff]

Most of the sandbagging I see comes at net charity events, which makes it much worse IMO. Imagine paying $500 for your foursome to play in the local Boys & Girls Club tourney, and a group of "18" handicappers go out and shoot 54 gross or some ridiculous number like that in a scramble. I've seen it done where the net score is in the 30's. Nice charity work, cheaters!

 

Sandbagging is exactly why I do my best to stay away from net events. If anything, I'd be accused of being a "vanity handicapper" since my index is just under 4 and I've been playing like crap for the last several months. When you only play twice a month and don't practice it's a bit hard to shoot a good score.

[AirTime23]

@midasmulligan2000:

 

And, I'm afraid that it would still be easy to do in Germany. The actual fraud does not happen at the time of a tournament (i.e., when tournament officals would be logging on to the DVG system to ascertain a player's handicap) ... but rather, over time in normal rounds ... by a golfer simply not recording their best rounds into the handicap system, or recording them as being worse than they really were.

 

 

I beg to differ. The german handicap system is different from the USGA system. You cannot return regular rounds to count for your handicap! Exception is EDS (see further down). It would be possible to never play any tournaments and therefore increase your playing ability to a level way beyond your factual handicap. But when you then go to a tournament and win by a large margin your handicap would be reduced greatly and your advantage would diminish.

 

Example: Your handicap is 14, your average score however is around +4. If you play this score in a tournament it would of course usually equal 46 net stableford points. This would, in Germany, produce a new handicap of around 11. To get back to your old handicap you would have to play 30 tournaments below 33 points as your hcp will be adjusted +0,1 for every time you do.

 

In Germany there is the possibility of returning Extra Day Scores which count for your hcp, but in my opinion really nobody does it frequently. One point is that there are restrictions on how many EDS you may turn in depending on you hcp. Lower than 11 you may not have any EDS. Above 11 you can have as many EDS as tournaments. So, no tourneys, no EDS. And BTW in EDS rounds somebody else has to count your shots, so there's gotta be an accomplice to sandbagging.

 

For those interested, from 2008 there will be a major change in handicapping. Players not having played in a min. 3 tourneys in a year's time can be banned from tourneys. Also starting Jan 1st there will be a CCS competition scratch score.