Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[Johnny Biarritz]

Well, any and all courses are too difficult for people playing the wrong tees. Thing is, new courses are really long from the back tees and most men like to play the "one-up" tees. Take The Shoals on the RTJ Trail, they have 2 courses and the 'one-up' tees are 7126 and 6778 yards respectively. Course I played just the other day had the second set at 6628 yards, then another at 6400. That's the problem. Old courses tend to be that at the back tees' played a course today that was 6665 from the back markers, 6200 from the one-up. So that's much easier for a 'hack' to get around.

When I worked at a club in Pinehurst, we didn't put out the back markers, ever. If you could provide proof of sub-5 handicap, we'd allow you to play from back there, otherwise, your "back" tees were the sub-6600 yard blue tees and the 'one-up's' were less than 6200. And we maintained a decent pace of play. Other courses should do that...

MGD- No, forward tee boxes are put in by the designer. Ruling bodies do not determine where tees are located on the course. They rate a certain set and yardage, but have no ability to tell a course where to put tees on a daily basis or especially during construction. To the rest of your thought, yes, SOME designers design for back tees first and then just add in others on intervals. But some others, design for the "men's" tee, or the normal play tee, and then just add on the back tee "back there" somewhere.

[Snufles]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354152097' post='5992657']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354151621' post='5992607']
In an interview earlier today on Golf Channel, Ted Bishop president of the PGA, said that more and more golfers are leaving the game because it is proving too difficult.

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. The golf swing is hard enough as it is. Wouldn't it benefit the industry as a whole if more people played the game? Does anyone want to see golf courses close, people lose their jobs, equipment sales decline? There are plenty of challenging courses out there. All I'm suggesting is that more people might stay and/or be attracted to the game if it were a bit more "user friendly".
[/quote]

I agree with you, but what's really difficult IMO is the fact that overall there are less people playing, however there seems to be more good young players then ever before who make the game look ridiculously easy. Golf is a very stuffy sport and this doesn't sit well with a lot of people, for example the people who happen to be the designers or a lot of these new courses. Every new course i see pop up is 7300yds with a slope of 140, elevation changes or forced carries, deep greenside bunkers etc etc. Even from the front tees they slope at the high 120's.

I played at Stowe Mountain last year in vermont. One of the best new courses in the USA from 5-6 years ago. It was a 143 slope with cliffs or water on every hole. A 15 handicap would lose 38 balls on that course.

People design courses for the good player, only there aren't many good players. I don't really know why we do this....I guess it's so the good young players don't shoot a lot of 61's. God forbid
[/quote]

It's like they are Tiger proofing their course but Tiger ain't coming.

220 yard forced carries are just time killing ball eating waste areas. Target golf is definitely not for the majority. Maybe 1% of the 15% that break 100 actually go to a driving range or warm up before a round.

[esketores]

I am the "short knocker" when playing. I'm very used to being out driven 40 - 90 yards. (depends on with whom I'm playing.)
If they don't like me playing from tees that make the course play between 6000 - 6300 yards that is tough ^itties. And as I always tell them... when you start to shoot par from my tee box then you have the right to move back. Oh do they whine.

Now to answer the original question. Yes.

[Sean2]

[quote name='esketores' timestamp='1354164460' post='5993625']
I am the "short knocker" when playing. I'm very used to being out driven 40 - 90 yards. (depends on with whom I'm playing.)
If they don't like me playing from tees that make the course play between 6000 - 6300 yards that is tough ^itties. And as I always tell them... when you start to shoot par from my tee box then you have the right to move back. Oh do they whine.

Now to answer the original question. Yes.
[/quote]
Let them whine away. :-)

I played a course on Cape Cad a couple of years ago. I played the middle tees. One par three was 240 and another was 220. Really? The average golfer hits his drive around 200 yards. Do the math. lol

[Mulligan26]

Our course has 5 sets of tees:
Black-7000
Blue-6500
White-6000
Green-5500? (never played the green tees)
Gold-48-5000? (only played these at night)

Our rating/slope is 73.9/140
Me, a few other strong/good players, the pros and the owner play the black. We added the whites as a nice transition between the green and blue tees. Those tees have been VERY successful and a lot more people are moving up from the blue tees, which is what we wanted when we did the yardage for them

[richard t]

Like others, give up the egos. If you can't break 90 don't play the 7200 yard tees. You don't have to play on a pitch and putt, but play what is a challenge to you not a tour pro.

[duffer987]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354165619' post='5993697']
[quote name='esketores' timestamp='1354164460' post='5993625']
I am the "short knocker" when playing. I'm very used to being out driven 40 - 90 yards. (depends on with whom I'm playing.)
If they don't like me playing from tees that make the course play between 6000 - 6300 yards that is tough ^itties. And as I always tell them... when you start to shoot par from my tee box then you have the right to move back. Oh do they whine.

Now to answer the original question. Yes.
[/quote]
Let them whine away. :-)

I played a course on Cape Cad a couple of years ago. I played the middle tees. One par three was 240 and another was 220. Really? The average golfer hits his drive around 200 yards. Do the math. lol
[/quote]

This is just like a course in the Easy Bay - Roddy Ranch - which is a really good track, 6500yds, but it has two 200yd+ par 3's, one into a serious wind. The group behind us with a couple seniors in it told us, not to worry if we hear them hit, they weren't going to reach the green anyways. A lot of golfers playing the recommended tees for their index (5-12 IIRC) are never going to have a chance to reach the green.

[Sean2]

^^^I'm not a big fan of playing the tees according to your HI. A person can have a decent HI but not hit the ball very far. Some courses may have a slope of 124 and play 6800, others can have a slope of 127 and play 6000 yards. If you're hitting woods/hybrids on your approach into every par 4...

[Rosco1216]

If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354221459' post='5996405']
If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.
[/quote]

You don't have to buy it Rosco. No one is trying to sell you anything. I think that's the case, Ted Bishop, president of the PGA thinks that's the case, as do many others. If the average score is still around 100 where is this "easier" you are referring to?

Yes, golf is hard, but just how hard is it supposed to be? Are we supposed to make it as hard as possible? It's a game, isn't it?

For example, most average golfers play maybe a few times a month at most. They don't know a PXi, from a C-Taper, from a SteelFiber. Tipping to them is something you do at a restaurant, not to a shaft. They don't have HI's of 0 - 3. They work all week and can't wait to get to the golf course. They can't hit hybids or long irons that require forced carries, they'll miss a green that is surrounded by bunkers, they'll lose a bunch of balls on a course that's loaded with hazards. They'll walk off the the course not invigorated but deflated.

Why begrudge these guys a bit of fun? Just because they can't hit blades, or stripe 280 yard drives, or hit a long iron doesn't make them any less worthy to play golf. This "golf is supposed to be hard" sounds a bit arrogant and smug to me. Sorry.

[Rosco1216]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354222953' post='5996521']
[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354221459' post='5996405']
If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.
[/quote]

You don't have to buy it Rosco. No one is trying to sell you anything. I think that's the case, Ted Bishop, president of the PGA thinks that's the case, as do many others. If the average score is still around 100 where is this "easier" you are referring to?

Yes, golf is hard, but just how hard is it supposed to be? Are we supposed to make it as hard as possible? It's a game, isn't it?
[/quote]

Well that about golf is too "hard"? Obviously golfers still have to swing the club and hit the ball..I'm looking at this in 2 ways..

1)Golf in terms of being able to hit the ball consistently in an intended direction and intended distance. In this way, wouldn't you agree that equipment innovation and advances have made this "easier" for the average golfer than 25 years ago?

2)Then there is golf in terms of playing a round and shooting a number. Are golfers leaving the game because it is too hard for them in terms of shooting a certain score? I don't think today's courses are unfair by any means, however of course there are some holes out there that many golfers would say are too hard where good shots may not be rewarded accordingly.

There are very easy courses and there are very difficult courses out there and everywhere in between. I was just stating that, in my opinion, if golfers want to simply shoot a lower score then they should play the easier courses.

Another way to look at it..My brother in law just started to play sudoku but gets so mad and frustrated when he can't figure them out. Why can't he? He is a beginner but was trying to complete the advanced puzzles. Or look at video games..that is why they have beginner through advanced levels..

[c5driver]

I guess I missed the memo about golf being fair.

That is the problem with a lot of golfers today.....They've forgotten that you are supposed to PLAY the course. A golf course is supposed to be a test of your skill. And if you are not playing a tough enough course there's a good chance you'll never get to the point you'd like to be. Longer golf course's enable people to play through their bag. Would it be fun to hit driver, sand wedge into every hole?

I think that most people play from tee's that are too short for them. (of course not a wrx'er because we all play the tips) If there is no need to work the ball right or left, most will never learn to hit that shot.

Just my opinion....

[Rosco1216]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354222953' post='5996521']
[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354221459' post='5996405']
If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.
[/quote]

You don't have to buy it Rosco. No one is trying to sell you anything. I think that's the case, Ted Bishop, president of the PGA thinks that's the case, as do many others. If the average score is still around 100 where is this "easier" you are referring to?

Yes, golf is hard, but just how hard is it supposed to be? Are we supposed to make it as hard as possible? It's a game, isn't it?

For example, most average golfers play maybe a few times a month at most. They don't know a PXi, from a C-Taper, from a SteelFiber. Tipping to them is something you do at a restaurant, not to a shaft. They don't have HI's of 0 - 3. [b]They work all week and can't wait to get to the golf course. They can't hit hybids or long irons that require forced carries, they'll miss a green that is surrounded by bunkers, they'll lose a bunch of balls on a course that's loaded with hazards. They'll walk off the the course not invigorated but deflated.[/b]

Why begrudge these guys a bit of fun? Just because they can't hit blades, or stripe 280 yard drives, or hit a long iron doesn't make them any less worthy to play golf. This "golf is supposed to be hard" sounds a bit arrogant and smug to me. Sorry.
[/quote]

Then they need to practice...otherwise if they are just trying to have fun and shoot better scores they don't belong on a course with greens surrounded by bunkers and loaded with hazards.

[Sean2]

[quote name='c5driver' timestamp='1354228733' post='5997033']
I guess I missed the memo about golf being fair.

That is the problem with a lot of golfers today.....They've forgotten that you are supposed to PLAY the course. A golf course is supposed to be a test of your skill. And if you are not playing a tough enough course there's a good chance you'll never get to the point you'd like to be. Longer golf course's enable people to play through their bag. Would it be fun to hit driver, sand wedge into every hole?

[b]I think that most people play from tee's that are too short for them.[/b] (of course not a wrx'er because we all play the tips) If there is no need to work the ball right or left, most will never learn to hit that shot.

Just my opinion....
[/quote]

Really? Then why does does the PGA, USGA, LPGA, GCSAA, as well as other organizations, support the [i]Tee it Forward[/i] initiative? In 2012 by teeing it forward the [i]Tee it Forward[/i] initiative discovered:[list]
[*]56% played faster
[*]56% are likely to play golf more often
[*]83% hit more lofted clubs into greens
[*]85% had more fun
[*]93% will TEE IT [i]FORWARD[/i] again
[/list]

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354152314' post='5992679']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1354140991' post='5991781']
Harder = fun...to me. I love fast greens and I love tees where you have to play a shot. I would pay for that and not think twice.
[/quote]
You aren't average. Plus, you're Mad. :-)
[/quote]

Hey now!

[Sean2]

[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354229139' post='5997071']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354222953' post='5996521']
[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354221459' post='5996405']
If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.
[/quote]

You don't have to buy it Rosco. No one is trying to sell you anything. I think that's the case, Ted Bishop, president of the PGA thinks that's the case, as do many others. If the average score is still around 100 where is this "easier" you are referring to?

Yes, golf is hard, but just how hard is it supposed to be? Are we supposed to make it as hard as possible? It's a game, isn't it?

For example, most average golfers play maybe a few times a month at most. They don't know a PXi, from a C-Taper, from a SteelFiber. Tipping to them is something you do at a restaurant, not to a shaft. They don't have HI's of 0 - 3. [b]They work all week and can't wait to get to the golf course. They can't hit hybids or long irons that require forced carries, they'll miss a green that is surrounded by bunkers, they'll lose a bunch of balls on a course that's loaded with hazards. They'll walk off the the course not invigorated but deflated.[/b]

Why begrudge these guys a bit of fun? Just because they can't hit blades, or stripe 280 yard drives, or hit a long iron doesn't make them any less worthy to play golf. This "golf is supposed to be hard" sounds a bit arrogant and smug to me. Sorry.
[/quote]

Then they need to practice...otherwise if they are just trying to have fun and shoot better scores they don't belong on a course with greens surrounded by bunkers and loaded with hazards.
[/quote]
Rosco, some folks don't have that luxury. They can either play golf or practice, not both. And, depending on where they live the choice of courses they play may be limited. I'm not talking about the hard core golfer here...I'm talking about the [b]average[/b] golfer. :-)

[ryancjordan]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1354135822' post='5991257']
This has come up in a few other threads recently and generally speaking I would say good courses built and renovated in the last 5-15 yrs are not becoming more unfair. It is bad golf courses built and renovated in the same time frame that are becoming more unfair.

I've been fortunate to play a lot of great courses this year (Blackhorse, Bayonet, Poppy Hills, Pasatiempo, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Old Mac, Paiute Snow and Wolf, Indian Wells Players, amongst the more well known ones) and none of those courses are unfair. Some are more difficult than others, but they are all fair challenges and if you know your game you can get around them in good time and enjoy it.

Courses I've played this year that I would say are 'unfair' would be Badlands and Bodega Harbour and what makes them go into the unfair category is they are poorly executed/built target golf courses. Shoehorned between houses, ridiculous unnatural elevation changes, truncated fairways for no reason other than to make them a 'design feature' and the like. These are the type of courses that leave folks shaking their heads, looking for and losing balls, and returning to tee boxes to hit again.
[/quote]

The hole at Bodega Harbor where you have the ridiculous forced carry followed by the short pitch and have to leave your cart is just the worst hole in the world. I don't know how someone didn't immediately get fired for that one.

[ryancjordan]

People seem to be incredibly stubborn on this one. Yes, I understand that you are good, but unfortunately the vast majority of golfers aren't. Even if I go out with some work buddies nowadays I'll shoot 82 while no one else gets under 110. Its not that people are playing from the wrong tees or that they need to "read the memo on golf being fair", the courses are very simply, too hard. Almost all architectural features at this point are added to make the game harder, bunkers, creeks, shaved off false fronts. Until a few years ago I had never seen a hole completely bunkered in front that slopes away from you that is elevated from a long second, shot, but it seems to be the norm with new courses nowadays. When I was younger Par 3s were usually between 120 and 180 and now I frequently see 200+ yard par 3s where even my dad who is 70 is playing from the front tees and hitting a driver at them. You really want seniors to be hitting a driver into a par 3? Obviously I have a bit more fun and get a bit closer when I move from blue to whites, but I think for most people, the problems are more with the features of the course.

As I mentioned above, the 16th hole at Bodega Harbor is a perfect example. I played that hole with a friend who usually shoots in the 70s. He had a 218 yard carry into a fairway where you couldn't have more than a foot or two of rollout or else it rolls out of bounds. My shot was a bit shorter at around 190 over the water, but was still a super tough shot. If you are playing the second to front tees at the course, you have a forced carry of nearly 200 yards. If you don't think this is too hard we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Sean2]

^^^Yes, exactly Ryan.

The hole you described at Bodega Harbor, is a microcosm of a lot of holes you'll see at many of today's courses. Makes you wonder what was going through the architect's head when he designed that one.

[Snufles]

[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354221459' post='5996405']
If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.
[/quote]

They are even trying to get rid of any health benefit by creating cart only courses.

[adamjstl]

[quote name='mwkbmw' timestamp='1354135746' post='5991247']
It probably wouldn't be nearly as bad if people would only play the proper tees according to their ability. Their [i]true[/i] ability, not their ego-driven fantasies.

Edit: Jim, you beat me to it!
[/quote]

AMEN!!!! My friends and I are all between +1 and 6 handicaps. We all hit the ball consistently 280+ yards off the tee. It never ceases to amaze me though when just two of us play somewhere and get paired up with another twosome. We all shake hands etc, and then IT happens. We move toward the tips and they hesitate. They look at each other with a gaze of "s***, what are we gonna do".... We always encourage them to play whatever tees they would normally play. They always, and I mean ALWAYS step to the tips. After 4 or 5 holes of suffering, they move up a box or two, and immmediatey have a much better time.

The number one thing courses can do to get people on the right boxes is to make the BLUE tee the middle tee. Most average players don't stress about what yardage they play from, but what COLOR the tee markers are. It's totally ego-driven. They feel like men by playing the blues, and don't want the stigma of "just playing the whites"... If you have 5 boxes go black, green, blue, white, red... And modern courses should have 5 or 6 tees.... 4 tees puts MOST players between the middle two boxes, and they usually play farther back, creating slow play, less fun. etc.

[Johnny Biarritz]

Well, courses don't "need" 6 sets of tees. They should have 3 fixed sets, they offer hybrid sets on the scorecard. Peachtree does that. The "Peachtree" tees are about 7400, the "Medal" tees are 6659 yards and they have a hybrid set at about 7000 yards that uses 11 back markers and 7 Medal markers IIRC. That is simpler on everyone. Courses have less tee space to maintain, you can easily handicap hybrid sets (my old club in Pinehurst at one time, no more, had 8 sets of men's tees rated), and people can find an enjoyable set of tees to play. 6 sets of tees are just expensive to maintain and that expense will be covered by the end consumer in some form.

In general, I don't think today's courses are any more difficult for today's golfers than courses of year's past were then. Meaning a course built at 6000 yards in 1950 was likely as difficult then as a 7300 yard course is today. But again, people need to find tees that fit their skill level...and don't need to overestimate their skill level.

[Sean2]

Well said Adam.

By the way, if I was playing golf with you and your friend, I wouldn't hesitate to play the tees I'm comfortable playing from, and they wouldn't be the tips. :-)

[duffer987]

[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1354236112' post='5997603']

As I mentioned above, the 16th hole at Bodega Harbor is a perfect example. I played that hole with a friend who usually shoots in the 70s. He had a 218 yard carry into a fairway where you couldn't have more than a foot or two of rollout or else it rolls out of bounds. My shot was a bit shorter at around 190 over the water, but was still a super tough shot. If you are playing the second to front tees at the course, you have a forced carry of nearly 200 yards. If you don't think this is too hard we will just have to agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Ugh indeed and the 'best' part of it is following that hole up with 18, where the fairway disappears 200-230yds from the tee (depending on which set), just so they could site a green as near the beach as possible on the finishing par 4. And that par 5 on the front where you are supposed to hit your drive 180yds so it doesn't roll OB, as its the only level spot between the tee and green. Man I cannot stand that course. Add all the wind they get there and it beggars belief anyone thinks that's a good/fair golf course. Two of the guys I played with that day winged a few houses, as you had to aim pretty much at them due to the wind. The simple thing is to play once and never return. Maybe if courses get less players and the general consensus of them being $hite gets back to the owners and they take it to heart, some of these tracks can be improved.

Of course the way Bodega is laid out, nothing can save that dung heap.

[SLIMER39]

I thought that's why you have different tees???

[Sean2]

[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354228434' post='5997013']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354222953' post='5996521']
[quote name='Rosco1216' timestamp='1354221459' post='5996405']
If the average score and handicap is the same now as it was 20 years ago then the course designers are doing there job to keep up with advancements in equipment and technology. Play the correct tees and if people want to play an easy course then go play an easier course, there are many easy muni's out there for people who want the game to be "easier".

I don't buy in to the idea that people are leaving the game because it's too hard..golf is supposed to be hard, especially for a beginner. If anything they are leaving because of the cost to play is way too much.
[/quote]

You don't have to buy it Rosco. No one is trying to sell you anything. I think that's the case, Ted Bishop, president of the PGA thinks that's the case, as do many others. If the average score is still around 100 where is this "easier" you are referring to?

Yes, golf is hard, but just how hard is it supposed to be? Are we supposed to make it as hard as possible? It's a game, isn't it?
[/quote]

Well that about golf is too "hard"? Obviously golfers still have to swing the club and hit the ball..I'm looking at this in 2 ways..

1)Golf in terms of being able to hit the ball consistently in an intended direction and intended distance. In this way, wouldn't you agree that equipment innovation and advances have made this "easier" for the average golfer than 25 years ago?

2)Then there is golf in terms of playing a round and shooting a number. Are golfers leaving the game because it is too hard for them in terms of shooting a certain score? I don't think today's courses are unfair by any means, however of course there are some holes out there that many golfers would say are too hard where good shots may not be rewarded accordingly.

There are very easy courses and there are very difficult courses out there and everywhere in between. I was just stating that, in my opinion, if golfers want to simply shoot a lower score then they should play the easier courses.

Another way to look at it..My brother in law just started to play sudoku but gets so mad and frustrated when he can't figure them out. Why can't he? He is a beginner but was trying to complete the advanced puzzles. Or look at video games..that is why they have beginner through advanced levels..
[/quote]
Sorry I missed this post Rosco.

1) You would think so, but if that's the case, why are golfers playing just as poorly as ever? Has equipment made it easier? I honestly don't know.

2) I think today's courses are a bit unfair: forced carries, too many hazards, very long par 3's (from the appropriate tees even), etc. In my area there are only two courses I would term as easy, and there are a lot of courses to choose from. I also think it's more than just about shooting a low score, thought that's certainly part of it, e.g., losing golf balls, mucking about in the woods, etc.

For a beginner yes, golf is very hard indeed...then, to use your video game example, don't put him at the advance level. :-)

[Sean2]

[quote name='SLIMER39' timestamp='1354251907' post='5998639']
I thought that's why you have different tees???
[/quote]
Sometimes there aren't enough tee boxes. I've seen courses with only three sets of tee boxes, with the "whites" being 6400 yards. If a guy averages 200 to 210 off the tee, he'll be hitting fairway woods and hybrids into most of the par 4's.

[Bubb]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354161343' post='5993449']
Well, any and all courses are too difficult for people playing the wrong tees. Thing is, new courses are really long from the back tees and most men like to play the "one-up" tees. Take The Shoals on the RTJ Trail, they have 2 courses and the 'one-up' tees are 7126 and 6778 yards respectively. Course I played just the other day had the second set at 6628 yards, then another at 6400. That's the problem. Old courses tend to be that at the back tees' played a course today that was 6665 from the back markers, 6200 from the one-up. So that's much easier for a 'hack' to get around.

When I worked at a club in Pinehurst, we didn't put out the back markers, ever. If you could provide proof of sub-5 handicap, we'd allow you to play from back there, otherwise, your "back" tees were the sub-6600 yard blue tees and the 'one-up's' were less than 6200. And we maintained a decent pace of play. Other courses should do that...

MGD- No, forward tee boxes are put in by the designer. Ruling bodies do not determine where tees are located on the course. They rate a certain set and yardage, but have no ability to tell a course where to put tees on a daily basis or especially during construction. To the rest of your thought, yes, SOME designers design for back tees first and then just add in others on intervals. But some others, design for the "men's" tee, or the normal play tee, and then just add on the back tee "back there" somewhere.
[/quote]
I just got back from the Shoals courses at RTJ and I agree. I've played the RTJ courses in Mobile (2), Prattville (3), Ross Bridge, and now the Shoals (2). They all seem to approach 8000 yards and are very difficult even from the middle tees, which is almost 6800 yards on the Schoolmaster at the Shoals. I'm a 3 handicap, but I found the Schoolmaster course so penal that I let them know via a post-stay survey the Marriott emails you.

There were several holes where coming up just short had a severe shaved downslope to a hazard. There wasn't a single easy hole on that course. I can't imagine a 10+ handicap enjoying themselves on that course no matter what tees they played. The only course I am really eager to return to on the RTJ trail is Ross Bridge, which happens to be the only course on the trail not designed by RTJ.

The game is frustrating for even a relatively "skilled" golfer like me, and I can certainly see where it would be easy to give up on for someone who has fewer successes than I do. I sometimes wonder how good I could be at anything else (guitar, piano, tennis, bowling, etc.) had I devoted the same number of hours to that pursuit instead of golf. There is nothing I can think of that I would not be much much better at than I am at golf. It feels like I'm just not that good given the thousands of hours I've put in over the last 32 years of playing.

Challenging is one thing, but I think some designers have crossed over to absurd simply to avoid being embarrassed by the longest and best players in the world. That's not a recipe for repeat business from average golfers looking to enjoy themselves with a reasonable challenge.

All that said, I'm hooked for life and will never give it up.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Bubb' timestamp='1354256073' post='5998811']
[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354161343' post='5993449']
Well, any and all courses are too difficult for people playing the wrong tees. Thing is, new courses are really long from the back tees and most men like to play the "one-up" tees. Take The Shoals on the RTJ Trail, they have 2 courses and the 'one-up' tees are 7126 and 6778 yards respectively. Course I played just the other day had the second set at 6628 yards, then another at 6400. That's the problem. Old courses tend to be that at the back tees' played a course today that was 6665 from the back markers, 6200 from the one-up. So that's much easier for a 'hack' to get around.

When I worked at a club in Pinehurst, we didn't put out the back markers, ever. If you could provide proof of sub-5 handicap, we'd allow you to play from back there, otherwise, your "back" tees were the sub-6600 yard blue tees and the 'one-up's' were less than 6200. And we maintained a decent pace of play. Other courses should do that...

MGD- No, forward tee boxes are put in by the designer. Ruling bodies do not determine where tees are located on the course. They rate a certain set and yardage, but have no ability to tell a course where to put tees on a daily basis or especially during construction. To the rest of your thought, yes, SOME designers design for back tees first and then just add in others on intervals. But some others, design for the "men's" tee, or the normal play tee, and then just add on the back tee "back there" somewhere.
[/quote]
I just got back from the Shoals courses at RTJ and I agree. I've played the RTJ courses in Mobile (2), Prattville (3), Ross Bridge, and now the Shoals (2). They all seem to approach 8000 yards and are very difficult even from the middle tees, which is almost 6800 yards on the Schoolmaster at the Shoals. I'm a 3 handicap, but I found the Schoolmaster course so penal that I let them know via a post-stay survey the Marriott emails you.

There were several holes where coming up just short had a severe shaved downslope to a hazard. There wasn't a single easy hole on that course. I can't imagine a 10+ handicap enjoying themselves on that course no matter what tees they played. The only course I am really eager to return to on the RTJ trail is Ross Bridge, which happens to be the only course on the trail not designed by RTJ.

The game is frustrating for even a relatively "skilled" golfer like me, and I can certainly see where it would be easy to give up on for someone who has fewer successes than I do. I sometimes wonder how good I could be at anything else (guitar, piano, tennis, bowling, etc.) had I devoted the same number of hours to that pursuit instead of golf. There is nothing I can think of that I would not be much much better at than I am at golf. It feels like I'm just not that good given the thousands of hours I've put in over the last 32 years of playing.

[color=#ff0000][b]Challenging is one thing, but I think some designers have crossed over to absurd[/b][/color] simply to avoid being embarrassed by the longest and best players in the world. That's not a recipe for repeat business from average golfers looking to enjoy themselves with a reasonable challenge.

All that said, I'm hooked for life and will never give it up.
[/quote]
And, as you alluded to, how do you think the 20 HI would have fared at the Schoolmaster (funny name when you think about it), let alone the 10?

And I think that "absurdity" is what makes the game more difficult/unfair for the average golfer. Who wants to play a game that beats one up time after time after time? At some point there has to be some rewards along the way.

[Imp]

[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1354194848' post='5994283']
Our course has 5 sets of tees:
Black-7000
Blue-6500
White-6000
Green-5500? (never played the green tees)
Gold-48-5000? (only played these at night)

Our rating/slope is 73.9/140
Me, a few other strong/good players, the pros and the owner play the black. We added the whites as a nice transition between the green and blue tees. Those tees have been VERY successful and a lot more people are moving up from the blue tees, which is what we wanted when we did the yardage for them
[/quote]There's also a new trend that's popping up that goes hand in hand with the tee it forward initiative that I really like... mixed tee colors on the scorecards. It adds more yardage lines on the score cards for a mix of gold/blue, blue/white, white/red tees. It adds another level of playing depth to the course. Without having to change the actual course, you've changed the course length.

Using the example of blue/white... The score card will outline which tee you hit from, some holes you play from the blues. Some holes, you play from the whites. Follow what the card says to tee off on the hole. If you play these mixed tees with someone that plays just from the whites or blues, you'll join them on some holes (or they may join you), increasing the comraderie and fun value.

All it costs is the printing of new cards, and you now have a course with 5-6-7 different lengths instead of 3-4 and you now have a slightly different course because the overall yardage has now changed.

If you have always played whites and resist going to all blues due to length, you now have an intermediate step. Likewise if you want to tee it forward, and the whites are just way too short (6700 blues to 6300 Whites),

All it costs the club is new cards. At that, you can print up 3-4 different cards with the blues/blues whites changing every few days. Not saying my local club does that, but cards are cheaper than adding/deleting landscape features.

Example...
[url="http://www.swanseacountryclub.com/aboutus/scorecard/"]http://www.swanseaco...utus/scorecard/[/url]

Yes, those blue/white mixed on the card are a rock painted blue/white. (Same with red/white). Just another marker. Inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. Not that they have to add them, just changes things up a bit more.

--kC