Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

[bluedot]

[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1356267455' post='6107423']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356264702' post='6107357']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

If you have thrown $20 in the pot for the weekend points/skins game, the difference between 81 and 84 could be worth a LOT of money, especially if the three stroke difference is due to a couple of birdies. If you are playing in a club tournament, the difference between 81 and 84 could mean winning your flight vs. not being a contender. To me, those ARE qualitative.

But I agree with you to this extent; if a golfer simply doesn't care what they shoot, then getting properly fit equipment isn't important.
[/quote]


....in my experience the difference between an 81 and an 84 will always be found in the short game and NOT the equipment...
[/quote]

I have no idea why you say this. The difference between an 84 and an 81 could easily be a couple of penalty strokes vs. keeping the ball in play off the tee, or missing a couple of greens that you would have hit with proper equipment.

So if you miss the fairway, then miss the green, then don't get up and down from a deep greenside bunker after shortsiding yourself, is that a short game problem or could it be an equipment problem that led to the missed fairway and the missed green in the first place?

In MY experience, until you have proper equipment you'll never know if the problem is short game or the equipment! That's the whole point of getting fitted.

[chuckyz2]

Very interesting read. And my respect to TW for choosing to make a difference rather than the buck. People like that are few and far in between. His type of work is a tough one, i can attest to with even a lettle limited experience and attempting to do the same on a much smaller scale. There are just too may different variables and personalities at work in this area to make it a career for any but the most patient.

If you look at clubs as you would cars, and choose to just play or take it seriously, or just need transportation or a competitive race car. You can not buy race ready clubs over the counter. If you want to take it to the next of many levels to be competitive, you must take the needed course of actions. Lessons, practice, and club selection, tuning. Though I have helped a fair amount of people the effort needed to convince them was by far more than I am willing to put out. Its just too hard for me to except watching someone hit the best shot of their life with a club I built for them and have them not even notice it. Or to play great with it and have one bad round and want their money back. Or the numerous other weird situations that arise. People are crazy. This game is hard and frustrating and brings out some interesting thought processes.

The manufacturers can not possibly get involed in that craziness. They find a happy medium the best they can and give you a good basis on which you can work with. And it will hit the ball. If you you want to go racing, then you can invest in the needed uprades to the car and the driving skills to try and compete. If you want to compete with the stocker, your dreaming.

Having experienced on a very small scale the crap involved with teaching and tuning, I moreso admire TW for his works. I do not envy him however. I feel bad for him and his quest to save us from ourselves is a battle that will never end or be won.

Only a very small percentage of the golfers today will benefit from it. Even though the evidence is clearly there that it is beneficial.

I offer some tips to people that I know will help them. I am however not going to beg the horse to drink any longer. Of all the people I play with, they see me reaching par 5's I never came close too before. They see me hitting more greens and my scores and strokes coming down rapidly. Only a very few are interested or care what transpired for this to happen.

The hardest part of this is convincing someone that tuning makes a difference. Lessons by someone that knows the swing makes a difference. Ther,e are however in both fields, many different methods of teaching and tuning. Its really hard to find a good swing coach. Most good golfers teach different swings than they actually swing. They have no idea what they are doing and what they think they are doing is not what they do at all. Yet a horrible player can see and teach better in most cases. Go figure. And speaking in general on course experiences, with the normal tips and from my own experience. It may or may not apply to the entire general golf population as I am sure there are many variables from state to state and country to country as there are accents in speach.

I learned a few few tricks through reseach and trial and error. I wanted to spread my new found knowledge to everyone I know like a born again Christian goes on a mission to save the world. Yet I found that most have no desire to take any steps to better their game and most are afraid of losing what little they have even knowing that it is very little. They put in countless hours swinging that way with thaose clubs and are afraid to change in fear they might even get worse.

Its crazy and there are countless diversities in all areas of this game that make it impossible to attract but only a few to proper steps needed to improve or become all you can be.

I believe that any head can be hit well by a good golfer if the lie, length, weighting and shaft are tuned to them. But the mind has to see a certain thing in order to put a good swing. That has always bothered me. I dont have that handicap thank God! And it is a handicap. One of many that most have. One that could and does keep one from finding the best match.

I have seen many benefits to tuning and the numbers have dropped considerably. It does help. If someone has a mental handicap that keeps them from progressing or truly seeing all that is available, there is not much anyone can do about it. Do you tell them that not only do they need a swing lesson, they also need a psycologist?

I thought I struck gold when I saw the benefits of tuning and how they can and will help anyone. I bought all the tools needed and was in high spirits that my little side buisness would at least pay for my hobby and I could also enjoy seeing others enjoy this wonderful game. Man was I wrong.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356290545' post='6108545']
Look, it's ok if YOU don't care if you shoot 84 or 81. But to say that there is no "qualitative" difference is incorrect at best.
[/quote]

A better word would have been "categorical". Someone who typically shoots 81 and someone who typically shoots 84 are both the same type of golfer. Not very good players but not out-and-out awful either. My point is, the differences between a good golfer and a not very good one have nothing to do with how well or poorly their clubs are MOI matched or frequency matched to their swing. Or between an not very good 84 shooter and an flat-out awful golfer who is lucky to break 100 once in a while, for that matter. Getting fitted clubs probably make a similar magnitude difference in our 81/84 shooters game as a couple of bunker-play lessons or a few hours practicing putting.

[jmvargas]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356290830' post='6108563']
[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1356267455' post='6107423']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356264702' post='6107357']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

If you have thrown $20 in the pot for the weekend points/skins game, the difference between 81 and 84 could be worth a LOT of money, especially if the three stroke difference is due to a couple of birdies. If you are playing in a club tournament, the difference between 81 and 84 could mean winning your flight vs. not being a contender. To me, those ARE qualitative.

But I agree with you to this extent; if a golfer simply doesn't care what they shoot, then getting properly fit equipment isn't important.
[/quote]


....in my experience the difference between an 81 and an 84 will always be found in the short game and NOT the equipment...
[/quote]

I have no idea why you say this. The difference between an 84 and an 81 could easily be a couple of penalty strokes vs. keeping the ball in play off the tee, or missing a couple of greens that you would have hit with proper equipment.

So if you miss the fairway, then miss the green, then don't get up and down from a deep greenside bunker after shortsiding yourself, is that a short game problem or could it be an equipment problem that led to the missed fairway and the missed green in the first place?

In MY experience, until you have proper equipment you'll never know if the problem is short game or the equipment! That's the whole point of getting fitted.
[/quote]

.....i said " in MY experience"..

yours is obviously different.

PS..i have been playing golf for 55 years...got as low as a 3 hdcp--67(-5) lowest round--and am now a 12 at 67 and occasionaly break 80..

[bluedot]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356295876' post='6108809']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356290545' post='6108545']
Look, it's ok if YOU don't care if you shoot 84 or 81. But to say that there is no "qualitative" difference is incorrect at best.
[/quote]

A better word would have been "categorical". Someone who typically shoots 81 and someone who typically shoots 84 are both the same type of golfer. Not very good players but not out-and-out awful either. My point is, the differences between a good golfer and a not very good one have nothing to do with how well or poorly their clubs are MOI matched or frequency matched to their swing. Or between an not very good 84 shooter and an flat-out awful golfer who is lucky to break 100 once in a while, for that matter. Getting fitted clubs probably make a similar magnitude difference in our 81/84 shooters game as a couple of bunker-play lessons or a few hours practicing putting.
[/quote]

I would agree with you that the difference between me and Tiger Woods is NOT the degree to which our equipment is optimized. That isn't the issue, though, is it?

The issue is whether ANY golfer, from a tour pro to the 81/84 shooter to the guy who is lucky to break 100 once in awhile could be better using properly fitted equipment. And the answer is, "Of course!"

To echo Tom Wishon, it is even MORE important for the 81/84 guy or the 100 shooter than the tour player (except that he is playing for his house!) A tour player is so talented that they can adapt to almost anything, and pretty quickly. The 81/84 player really can't, and the 100 shooter has no chance whatsoever with the wrong equipment.

As to your last paragraph, if I take the bunker play lessons and spend significant time working on my putting (I do both...) what then? Is it only then that I should play proper equipment?

[bluedot]

[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1356300735' post='6109049']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356290830' post='6108563']
[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1356267455' post='6107423']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356264702' post='6107357']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

If you have thrown $20 in the pot for the weekend points/skins game, the difference between 81 and 84 could be worth a LOT of money, especially if the three stroke difference is due to a couple of birdies. If you are playing in a club tournament, the difference between 81 and 84 could mean winning your flight vs. not being a contender. To me, those ARE qualitative.

But I agree with you to this extent; if a golfer simply doesn't care what they shoot, then getting properly fit equipment isn't important.
[/quote]


....in my experience the difference between an 81 and an 84 will always be found in the short game and NOT the equipment...
[/quote]

I have no idea why you say this. The difference between an 84 and an 81 could easily be a couple of penalty strokes vs. keeping the ball in play off the tee, or missing a couple of greens that you would have hit with proper equipment.

So if you miss the fairway, then miss the green, then don't get up and down from a deep greenside bunker after shortsiding yourself, is that a short game problem or could it be an equipment problem that led to the missed fairway and the missed green in the first place?

In MY experience, until you have proper equipment you'll never know if the problem is short game or the equipment! That's the whole point of getting fitted.
[/quote]

.....i said " in MY experience"..

yours is obviously different.

PS..i have been playing golf for 55 years...got as low as a 3 hdcp--67(-5) lowest round--and am now a 12 at 67 and occasionaly break 80..
[/quote]

I'm only 60, so I'm not unfamiliar with the effect of age on my game. But I still play to a 5 (+/-), play competitively, and intend to do so for a number of years to come. One of the ways I do that is by making sure my equipment is right for me.

Rationally, I suppose that I should hope that most if not all of the people I play against will have your attitude about optimizing their equipment; makes it that much easier to compete and maybe win. I'll opt to be the 81, and let you take the 84...

But I don't feel that way; I like seeing other people play as well as they can, probably due to spending 39 years (and counting...) as a high school basketball coach. I like seeing improvement, and can't quite understand people who don't want to do everything possible to get there. But that's just me...

[secretmidam]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356210880' post='6105229']
[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356208150' post='6105109']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356197914' post='6104627']
[quote name='DaveMac' timestamp='1356195810' post='6104541']
The message about custom fitting is getting through but if customers buy off the rack it is because they choose to do so.
[/quote]

I firmly believe that as long as you team up with someone at the retailer with reasonable experience the major mfgs can provide all the custom order options you could ever need. Finding that person at retailer A might take some investigation, BUT - if you know anything about golf equipment you will know enough to determine if the person is qualified or full of BS - and then you work together.

Every single digit capper I've ever come across knows enough about custom options to figure out what they need. And the 15-25 cappers really don't need more than custom Loft/Lenght/Lie and then go get some lessons. Anyone at the retailer can help you with L/L/L.

I've had bad experiences with independent custom fitters and their belief systems. Their obsession with the minutia sends you down a rathole of fixing things that aren't broken or details that are as important to your game as the as the amount of dust in the air at the course.
[/quote]

You both make good points. However...

I'm the 15-25 capper. I've never had someone in a big box store offer to check lie, loft, length and adjust something off the rack I was interested in buying. Or offer a custom option from the OEM. Or seem to be particularly interested in looking for a loft or flex of a particular club I wanted to try that was not in stock, other than [u]maybe[/u] seeing if another store of their chain in the area had it.
[/quote]

You didn't ask to be checked? At some point there is a degree of consumer responsibility. You seem to know about these attributes. (no offense to you - just saying). I know you are using yourself as an example.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, Joe 20 capper goes to the Independent boutique fitter for irons and leaves $1500 poorer after being steered into one of the 3 available heads the fitter carries, preached to about by MOI matching, and fooled into shaft "Pure'ing".

I think PING has it right - solid but non-excessive custom fitting at the retail level. Color codes and sample demo shaft lengths. Plenty of options for Joe 20-cap and actually plenty for me at 4hc.
[/quote]

Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.

[secretmidam]

 

Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

 

By Tom Wishon

 

GolfWRX Contributor

 

Tom Wishon served as Vice President of GolfWorks from 1980 to 1986. From 1986 to 1993, he was president of Dynacraft Golf Products, and from 1993 to 2002 he was Vice President and Chief Technical Officer for Golfsmith International. Wishon started his own company, Tom Wishon Golf Technology, in 2003.

 

I read with great interest the article by Kevin Crook, The Focus on Equipment has Hurt Golf,in which he basically said it’s almost a waste of time to go buy new golf clubs because you have no way of knowing if what you buy is going to help or harm your ability to play the game.

 

The main thing I took away from Kevin’s article is that he is yet one more confused and frustrated victim of the longtime business model of the golf equipment industry. If anything from the golf equipment industry has harmed golf, it is the way that golf clubs are being sold to golfers in a market that is fiercely competitive for sales.

 

Many golf club companies exist to sell their clubs to millions of golfers through thousands of retail golf outlets and websites. The top-5 golf equipment manufacturers now control about 80 percent of the premium golf equipment market with combined annual revenues north of $3 billion. Four out of five of these companies are publicly traded, each with the accompanying pressures from shareholders and financial institutions to grow in revenue, profits and stock price.

 

The only way large golf companies can sell the volume of clubs they must to meet forecasts and satisfy shareholders and executives is to pre-build their clubs to a series of standard specifications so they can be shipped to the thousands of retailers to be put on display and sold off the rack. Demand is driven by massive marketing campaigns that promise improvement and an increase in status upon buying the clubs. Credibility is established by paying professional golfers to play their equipment.

 

After three decades of such fierce competition, the golf equipment industry has become a commodity business. Most retailers are selling the same exact products, so consumers hunt for the best price. Retailers have to discount to get the sale, which results in them making less profit. Making less profit means they do not have the money to hire and retain quality sales people. And retailers can’t afford to allow the sales staff to take more than a few minutes to make each sale, because making money requires that they sell a high volume of products.

 

This is precisely what Kevin has encountered in his frustration with trying to do nothing more than to find the best golf equipment with which to play and enjoy this great game. He’s frustrated because he believes that whoever sells him his clubs should really know what they are doing. Unfortunately, the shortcomings in the current golf equipment business model means the people selling him his clubs do not know much more about golf clubs than he does, and may actually know less.

 

Launch monitors are placed in golf retail outlets to give golfers the impression they are being properly fit for their clubs. Yet little to no training exists to teach sales people how to properly turn the outputs of the launch monitors into the best prescription for clubs for the golfer. Retailers also have inventory to worry about, so it is very common for them to pay a “spiff” to their sales staff to get them to make more of an effort to sell what they need to get rid of.

 

Add to that the effects of the fierce competition among the golf equipment companies. At the wholesale level, it has resulted in drivers and woods that are far too long for the vast majority of golfers to ever hit consistently, which may or may not actually have the loft that is imprinted on the head.

Lofts in irons have been decreasing as well, as a way of impressing golfers with more distance in their short irons. But this comes at the expense of golfer's not being able to hit their mid and long irons as well.

 

Shafts are a problem, too. Average golfers have no idea how stiff the shafts they purchase actually are because of poor quality control and a lack of industry standards. Add it all up, and it’s no wonder that golfers like Kevin Cook are confused and often end up with the wrong equipment.

 

In truth, the best solution for golfers is to return to the original business model for golf equipment sales prior to the early 1900s, back when the only place a golfer could buy a set of golf clubs was to go see a clubmaker. Back then, golfers visited the clubmaker’s shop, where the clubs were built one club at a time, one set at a time, for one golfer at a time.

 

It’s critical to be honest and tell you that some of today’s clubmakers do not have the fitting knowledge to be able to properly match a golfer with clubs that allow him or her to play to the best of their ability. Just because someone can build and repair golf clubs does not mean they know how to analyze a golfer and choose the best fitting specs to match to the golfer’s size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics.

 

So golfers who decide to visit a clubmaker to end their equipment frustration MUST DO THEIR HOMEWORK to be sure the clubmaker they choose is a good, experienced and knowledgeable. Such clubmaker/clubfitters do exist and they are without question the very best sources for golf equipment and knowledge. They can truly help a golfer improve and play to the best of the golfer’s ability.

 

The best way to find a good clubmaker is from the following resources:

 

The AGCP (Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals): http://www.agcpgolf.com/locator/

 

The ICG (International Clubmakers’ Guild): http://www.clubmaker...uild-google-map

 

If you find a clubmaker from any of these sources, call him/her, visit, and ask how he/she conducts a fitting analysis. Ask for names of other golfers in the area he/she has fit. Call these golfers and ask them about their fitting experience.

 

Do NOT just blindly go see a clubmaker who you have not vetted. The good clubmakers will never mind golfers doing an investigation, because they are confident of their skills and experience.

 

Do this for your next equipment purchase and you will avoid Kevin Cook’s frustration with modern golf equipment. If you do, you will end up with golf clubs that are far better for your game than what you can buy within the golf industry’s current business model.

 

Tom Wishon is a contributing writer for GolfWRX.com. is His views do not necessarily represent the views of GolfWRX.

Tom, great article and very truthful, but what about the other reputable, certified club builders that choose not to join either of the two associations you listed?

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

An improvement of 3 strokes from 84 to 81 equates to less than 4%, however, [b]in relation to par[/b], 3 strokes (12 compared to 9) is an improvement of [b]25%.[/b]

Is being properly fitted worth 25% - I would vote yes.

Puring and shaft profiling: I am not convinced that those features will help the higher handicappers, but getting length, lie, basic shaft flex and shaft weight plus grip size - can help every golfer under the sun - especially length which is THE most commonly misfit dimension.

Fitting for correct loft is usually confined to the longer clubs - drivers, f/ways and hybrids.

Beyond that, ensuring that loft spacing between clubs is consistent, is well worth getting good advice on.

As TW explains in his book - there are different levels of fitting, just as there are different levels of car wash. A wash and rinse cannot be compared to having your car detailed. The puring and shaft profiling is akin to detailing but there is no excuse for using or being fitted into an incorrect length.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356325812' post='6110597']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

An improvement of 3 strokes from 84 to 81 equates to less than 4%, however, [b]in relation to par[/b], 3 strokes (12 compared to 9) is an improvement of [b]25%.[/b]

Is being properly fitted worth 25% - I would vote yes.

Puring and shaft profiling: I am not convinced that those features will help the higher handicappers, but getting length, lie, basic shaft flex and shaft weight plus grip size - can help every golfer under the sun - especially length which is THE most commonly misfit dimension.

Fitting for correct loft is usually confined to the longer clubs - drivers, f/ways and hybrids.

Beyond that, ensuring that loft spacing between clubs is consistent, is well worth getting good advice on.

As TW explains in his book - there are different levels of fitting, just as there are different levels of car wash. A wash and rinse cannot be compared to having your car detailed. The puring and shaft profiling is akin to detailing but there is no excuse for using or being fitted into an incorrect length.
[/quote]

I think the hangup a lot of people have is that they have been fit in the past and they don't see the 25% improvement so they don't do it again.

I agree that everyone should be fit for L/L/L, get the right shaft and shaft flex in all their clubs, and get the correct grip size (which you can order from all the OEM's at little to no upcharge). Beyond that? I think we spend a lot of time splitting hairs.

[station2station]

[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356326008' post='6110615']
[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356325812' post='6110597']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

An improvement of 3 strokes from 84 to 81 equates to less than 4%, however, [b]in relation to par[/b], 3 strokes (12 compared to 9) is an improvement of [b]25%.[/b]

Is being properly fitted worth 25% - I would vote yes.

Puring and shaft profiling: I am not convinced that those features will help the higher handicappers, but getting length, lie, basic shaft flex and shaft weight plus grip size - can help every golfer under the sun - especially length which is THE most commonly misfit dimension.

Fitting for correct loft is usually confined to the longer clubs - drivers, f/ways and hybrids.

Beyond that, ensuring that loft spacing between clubs is consistent, is well worth getting good advice on.

As TW explains in his book - there are different levels of fitting, just as there are different levels of car wash. A wash and rinse cannot be compared to having your car detailed. The puring and shaft profiling is akin to detailing but there is no excuse for using or being fitted into an incorrect length.
[/quote]

I think the hangup a lot of people have is that they have been fit in the past and they don't see the 25% improvement so they don't do it again.

I agree that everyone should be fit for L/L/L, get the right shaft and shaft flex in all their clubs, and get the correct grip size (which you can order from all the OEM's at little to no upcharge). Beyond that? I think we spend a lot of time splitting hairs.
[/quote]

I was helping my brother put together a set of clubs...he, being of the rather athletic type, had a whole deal of ability, but no clue on flex, length, etc...

So, I help him fit for LLL...get him into a correct ball park shaft flex...and he went from uber beginner and is now down to a 4....if he wants to get better from there, he will need to fine tune a bunch of stuff and may benefit, (at this point) from some advanced fitting stuff to further dial in some shaft selection and maybe some different grinds on his wedges...but really what he needs is to dial in a consistent swing and work on course management..

point to this tangent....the "fitting" I helped him accomplish cost next to nothing and proved quite helpful...the fitting he could employ now would likely be quite expensive and he probably wouldn't see the same return on his investment...

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356326008' post='6110615']
[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356325812' post='6110597']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

An improvement of 3 strokes from 84 to 81 equates to less than 4%, however, [b]in relation to par[/b], 3 strokes (12 compared to 9) is an improvement of [b]25%.[/b]

Is being properly fitted worth 25% - I would vote yes.

Puring and shaft profiling: I am not convinced that those features will help the higher handicappers, but getting length, lie, basic shaft flex and shaft weight plus grip size - can help every golfer under the sun - especially length which is THE most commonly misfit dimension.

Fitting for correct loft is usually confined to the longer clubs - drivers, f/ways and hybrids.

Beyond that, ensuring that loft spacing between clubs is consistent, is well worth getting good advice on.

As TW explains in his book - there are different levels of fitting, just as there are different levels of car wash. A wash and rinse cannot be compared to having your car detailed. The puring and shaft profiling is akin to detailing but there is no excuse for using or being fitted into an incorrect length.
[/quote]

I think the hangup a lot of people have is that they have been fit in the past and they don't see the 25% improvement so they don't do it again.

I agree that everyone should be fit for L/L/L, get the right shaft and shaft flex in all their clubs, and get the correct grip size (which you can order from all the OEM's at little to no upcharge). Beyond that? I think we spend a lot of time splitting hairs.
[/quote]

You could be right about some people being fit and not seeing improvement but that might also be due to poor fitting advice. A retailer is more likely to want to sell what he already has in stock rather than place a special order.

As to your comment that OEMs offer the basic options, again true, but they rely on retailers to do the fitting (see above).

Most OEMs get off lightly, in my view. Most are not really interested. Use the search feature on some OEM sites and type the word "fitting" and you'll likely directed to the hat section!

As previously posted - if a major manufacturer can outdo Ping with a static, accurate, simple fitting system - they will benefit from the same loyalty that Ping has succeeded in establishing.

[secretmidam]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356326120' post='6110623']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.
[/quote]
Sell you up? Thanks for your informed and fact based answer. It was an actual question that I asked.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

...

[Petethreeput]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356326008' post='6110615']
[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356325812' post='6110597']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

An improvement of 3 strokes from 84 to 81 equates to less than 4%, however, [b]in relation to par[/b], 3 strokes (12 compared to 9) is an improvement of [b]25%.[/b]

Is being properly fitted worth 25% - I would vote yes.

Puring and shaft profiling: I am not convinced that those features will help the higher handicappers, but getting length, lie, basic shaft flex and shaft weight plus grip size - can help every golfer under the sun - especially length which is THE most commonly misfit dimension.

Fitting for correct loft is usually confined to the longer clubs - drivers, f/ways and hybrids.

Beyond that, ensuring that loft spacing between clubs is consistent, is well worth getting good advice on.

As TW explains in his book - there are different levels of fitting, just as there are different levels of car wash. A wash and rinse cannot be compared to having your car detailed. The puring and shaft profiling is akin to detailing but there is no excuse for using or being fitted into an incorrect length.
[/quote]

I think the hangup a lot of people have is that they have been fit in the past and they don't see the 25% improvement so they don't do it again.

I agree that everyone should be fit for L/L/L, get the right shaft and shaft flex in all their clubs, and get the correct grip size (which you can order from all the OEM's at little to no upcharge). Beyond that? I think we spend a lot of time splitting hairs.
[/quote]

Ran into a guy in MT who had just gotten back from Titleist fitting. Paid a ton of money for his clubs and the travel to get there, and was trading them in having used them only twice. I think this is probably true because clubfitters also give pointers to the player. Then when the player gets back to the course and sees the trees, water, bunkers, they revert back to their original swing and the clubs are no longer fitted properly.
Does anyone think this may be a reason for not seeing improvement?

[jmvargas]

[quote name='Petethreeput' timestamp='1356356291' post='6111207']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356326008' post='6110615']
[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356325812' post='6110597']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

An improvement of 3 strokes from 84 to 81 equates to less than 4%, however, [b]in relation to par[/b], 3 strokes (12 compared to 9) is an improvement of [b]25%.[/b]

Is being properly fitted worth 25% - I would vote yes.

Puring and shaft profiling: I am not convinced that those features will help the higher handicappers, but getting length, lie, basic shaft flex and shaft weight plus grip size - can help every golfer under the sun - especially length which is THE most commonly misfit dimension.

Fitting for correct loft is usually confined to the longer clubs - drivers, f/ways and hybrids.

Beyond that, ensuring that loft spacing between clubs is consistent, is well worth getting good advice on.

As TW explains in his book - there are different levels of fitting, just as there are different levels of car wash. A wash and rinse cannot be compared to having your car detailed. The puring and shaft profiling is akin to detailing but there is no excuse for using or being fitted into an incorrect length.
[/quote]

I think the hangup a lot of people have is that they have been fit in the past and they don't see the 25% improvement so they don't do it again.

I agree that everyone should be fit for L/L/L, get the right shaft and shaft flex in all their clubs, and get the correct grip size (which you can order from all the OEM's at little to no upcharge). Beyond that? I think we spend a lot of time splitting hairs.
[/quote]

Ran into a guy in MT who had just gotten back from Titleist fitting. Paid a ton of money for his clubs and the travel to get there, and was trading them in having used them only twice. I think this is probably true because clubfitters also give pointers to the player. Then when the player gets back to the course and sees the trees, water, bunkers, they revert back to their original swing and the clubs are no longer fitted properly.
Does anyone think this may be a reason for not seeing improvement?
[/quote]

...hmmm..you may have a point...

what was this guy's hdcp?

[Spiritomb]

Very good Tom. when I bought my custom irons, I was very happy to get a better product then then the big oems, and I got the shaft that I wanted and the grip I wanted, all for a better price.

[bluedot]

Then that is a very inefficient clubfitter. I've done a number of fittings with several different clubfitters and NEVER had a swing suggestion made by the fitter, not once. And that is NOT because my swing is that good, believe me.

As to trading clubs that quickly, a player who trades in a set of clubs, or a single club, after using them twice is wildly overestimating his/her ability. I give my self at least 10 rounds plus practice to begin to figure out a new club. As has been discussed before, the higher the handicap the more important this becomes. A whole new set? I'd give them most of a season before I believed I really knew what the clubs were or were not doing for me.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Maybe the guy who traded in his fitted clubs after two rounds was expecting a "25% improvement" in his game just from the fact that they were fitted?

Nah, that's just crazy talk!

[secretmidam]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356357329' post='6111261']
Then that is a very inefficient clubfitter. I've done a number of fittings with several different clubfitters and NEVER had a swing suggestion made by the fitter, not once. And that is NOT because my swing is that good, believe me.

As to trading clubs that quickly, a player who trades in a set of clubs, or a single club, after using them twice is wildly overestimating his/her ability. I give my self at least 10 rounds plus practice to begin to figure out a new club. As has been discussed before, the higher the handicap the more important this becomes. A whole new set? I'd give them most of a season before I believed I really knew what the clubs were or were not doing for me.
[/quote]

Blue, do you feel a fitter should give swing suggestions, or leave that to a PGA Teaching Professional?

Thanks!

[smackygolf]

[quote name='1puttwoods' timestamp='1356281733' post='6108077']
Unfortunatly most true "club Builders" I know are no longer in business. I actually have a world renowned club maker currently working as my fitter. He had to close his shop due to not enough sales. The Golfwrx community represents about one hundreth of 1% of the golfing population or even less. The problem I see is that nobody wants to buy equipment which no one has ever heard of, while paying 2-3 times what an average set of OEM clubs sells for. Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that, making their $900 set of clubs now a close to $2000. I can see competitive players maybe doing that but the average player??? No way!!!
[/quote]

"Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that,"

Hopefully, no one. Frequency matching, MOI matching, and spining are the $300 HDMI cables of the golf business. There is not a single person who can honestly show qualitative proof that ANY of that matters to a GREAT player, let alone a hack shooting 93.

[secretmidam]

[quote name='smackygolf' timestamp='1356359839' post='6111411']
[quote name='1puttwoods' timestamp='1356281733' post='6108077']
Unfortunatly most true "club Builders" I know are no longer in business. I actually have a world renowned club maker currently working as my fitter. He had to close his shop due to not enough sales. The Golfwrx community represents about one hundreth of 1% of the golfing population or even less. The problem I see is that nobody wants to buy equipment which no one has ever heard of, while paying 2-3 times what an average set of OEM clubs sells for. Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that, making their $900 set of clubs now a close to $2000. I can see competitive players maybe doing that but the average player??? No way!!!
[/quote]

"Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that,"

Hopefully, no one. Frequency matching, MOI matching, and spining are the $300 HDMI cables of the golf business. There is not a single person who can honestly show qualitative proof that ANY of that matters to a GREAT player, let alone a hack shooting 93.
[/quote]

Brand recognition sells clubs versus componets the average golfer has not heard of. Would this be a fair statement? Good club builders and fitters that fit OEM clubs the proper way can still make a very nice living. What to you defines a "club builder" versus a guy that sells and fits OEM's? Or is it the process and services they offer? It is a shame that good builders go out of business. other than selling brands average golfers do not know, I wonder what other reasons they do go out of business, how could an average or high hcp. player not want those services!

[Imp]

[quote name='smackygolf' timestamp='1356359839' post='6111411']
let alone a [b]hack [/b]shooting 93.
[/quote]Ok, let's leave the name calling out of this.

--kC

[BirdieBob]

[quote name='smackygolf' timestamp='1356359839' post='6111411']
[quote name='1puttwoods' timestamp='1356281733' post='6108077']
Unfortunatly most true "club Builders" I know are no longer in business. I actually have a world renowned club maker currently working as my fitter. He had to close his shop due to not enough sales. The Golfwrx community represents about one hundreth of 1% of the golfing population or even less. The problem I see is that nobody wants to buy equipment which no one has ever heard of, while paying 2-3 times what an average set of OEM clubs sells for. Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that, making their $900 set of clubs now a close to $2000. I can see competitive players maybe doing that but the average player??? No way!!!
[/quote]

"Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that,"

Hopefully, no one. Frequency matching, MOI matching, and spining are the $300 HDMI cables of the golf business. There is not a single person who can honestly show qualitative proof that ANY of that matters to a GREAT player, let alone a hack shooting 93.
[/quote]



Like getting DG "Tour Issue" shafts that are weight matched instead of the standard DG shafts!
Of course those on the WRX know better than to waste money like that.

[station2station]

[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356350488' post='6111079']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356326120' post='6110623']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.
[/quote]
Sell you up? Thanks for your informed and fact based answer. It was an actual question that I asked.
[/quote]

It's general statement that infers that indy custom club builders have belief systems that rely heavily on generating revenue thru the minutia of voodoo - "options" that they strongly upsell that doesn't really affect anything real in your golf game. I used shaft puring as an example. There are many. To use the phrase that Smackygolf used above, "this is the $300 HDMI cable of the industry,"

I've never been to an Indy fitter whose belief system didn't threaten to destroy my bag. One guy wanted to remove my DG Tour Issue shafts because they were taper tip and he said "Nobody on tour uses taper tip - the only reason they exist is for ease at the point of manufacturing - all tour players bore their hoses parallel and tip their shafts to get it just right. I'll bore out your Mizuno heads - they'll be ready next week". WOAH WOAH wait a minute. I just came to you for help with tweaking my woods.

Another fitter I went to had a strong belief that every amateur golfer plays shafts that are too stiff in their irons - and he softens their flex FCM dramatically- but doesn't like to tell them the new frequency he builds because it would get in their head. Suffice it to say at the time I was playing X100 SSx1 and he wanted gave me a demo club to try over the weekend that was 4.0. Didn't fit me at all and his response? "You're just so used to your X100 that you need to retrain yourself on how you release the club." ADIOS!

[secretmidam]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356366629' post='6111781']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356350488' post='6111079']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356326120' post='6110623']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.
[/quote]
Sell you up? Thanks for your informed and fact based answer. It was an actual question that I asked.
[/quote]

It's statement that infers that indy custom club builders have belief systems that rely heavily on generating revenue thru the minutia of voodoo - "options" that they strongly upsell that doesn't really affect anything real in your golf game. I used shaft puring as an example. There are many. To use the phrase that Smackygolf used above, "this is the $300 HDMI cable of the industry,"

If you want honest answers it's best not to start calling people "bud" on here. It's derogatory.
[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be derogatory.

How is shaft pureing not helpful? (which I believe SST Pureing isn't voodoo). I just felt your statement on pureing was somewhat incorrect. What other options do you feel club builders try and upswell to generate revenue. That's an honest question.

[jmvargas]

whenever i go over a round i just played wherein i count the"what ifs" where i could have saved some strokes it's always a missed short putt or easy approaches i botched up...

i never think "if only this club or that club fit me better........"

[station2station]

[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356367598' post='6111845']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356366629' post='6111781']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356350488' post='6111079']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356326120' post='6110623']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.
[/quote]
Sell you up? Thanks for your informed and fact based answer. It was an actual question that I asked.
[/quote]

It's statement that infers that indy custom club builders have belief systems that rely heavily on generating revenue thru the minutia of voodoo - "options" that they strongly upsell that doesn't really affect anything real in your golf game. I used shaft puring as an example. There are many. To use the phrase that Smackygolf used above, "this is the $300 HDMI cable of the industry,"

If you want honest answers it's best not to start calling people "bud" on here. It's derogatory.
[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be derogatory.

How is shaft pureing not helpful? (which I believe SST Pureing isn't voodoo). I just felt your statement on pureing was somewhat incorrect. What other options do you feel club builders try and upswell to generate revenue. That's an honest question.
[/quote]

[color=#282828]Ok, then - I took your addressing wrong - no offense.[/color]

[color=#282828]I edited my post above to add some examples. Spining or Purin'g is one of the items (and you may not agree that it's bs and I won't beat this dead horse) but I also have found they will try to overhaul your bag unnecessarily citing the examples above. check out my additions [/color]

[Jamboy72]

I think one of the issues is that for every item of customization (insert long list here....) the consumer can see a relationship between price/cost and potential benefit....however, it seems that there is almost an inverse relationship between cost and visible benefit...shaft puring would be a good example here...