Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

[Pepperturbo]

To the OP.. Tom's a worthy contributor here , but he's NOT a beauty queen in a bikini... meaning, his pic is toooooo big.

[wetdogsmell]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1356030546' post='6096637']
Well, it's a simple matter of percentages. If the 20 handicapper doesn't plan on playing a whole bunch of times a years and isn't really bothered about finding equipment to play better golf, then the higher percentage of their time and money should be given to the OTR solution.
On the other hand, if the 20 handicapper aspires to play better golf and lower their handicap, they have a higher percentage chance of doing this by finding equipment better suited to their game. How do they do this? Well, you stand a better percentage of hitting good shot by finding the centre of the club face. Most high handicappers struggle to do this simple task with much consistency regardless of their their swing ability. And you stand a better percentage of finding the centre of the face with a correctly fitted for length and lie golf club. Likewise, the percentages play in your favour if you receive the correct advice on what equipment works best for which person. Percentages and not guesswork. Lessons are great and all, but sometimes all the schooling in the world isn't going to convince somebody that using a teaspoon to shovel snow is just as effective as a snow plough.
[/quote]

A snow analogy! I can relate being in Minnesota!

Your average Minnesota homeowner realizes that a snowblower is the best option for clearing their driveway. Shovel sucks and snowplow is too big. Fill up your snowblower with gas and go for it!

Same with your average golfer. With just a bit of research (without consulting a clubfitter) they know they should be in the Game Improvement section.

Now if you want to fine tune your gear, you might want to get a wider snowblower with a larger engine. Or maybe a smaller more maneuverable one.... Point being you are 95% to your sweetspot when you made the decision to get the snowblower. All other tweaks have a smaller return on investment.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356031394' post='6096705']
To the OP.. Tom's a worthy contributor here , but he's NOT a beauty queen in a bikini... meaning, his pic is toooooo big.
[/quote]

Yah, I agree but Zak from WRX put it up there when he published ny commentary to Kevin's article so I had no say in the matter !

[TomWishon]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356029656' post='6096573']
I still can't wrap my head around this.... What is a club fitter going to put in a 20 handicappers hands that is going to be significantly different than a standard set of clubs? It seems like if you have clubs that [i]roughly [/i]fit your body, the $$ would be much better spent on getting a few lessons to get rid of major swing faults.

I would argue that the focus on gear (both big boys and custom) is "harming" peoples enjoyment of golf. It shouldn't be TMAG vs Wishon it should be Gear vs Lessons.
[/quote]

1. The avg 20 hdcp cannot control a 46 1/2" driver nearly as well as he can one that is substantially shorter.

2. The avg 20 hdcp cannot consistently hit a 3 wood up in the air to fly so he should not even own one. But who tells him that and instead, fits his wood set makeup to be say, a 5w and 7w instead of 3w, 5w, 7w.

3. The avg 20 hdcp cannot deliver the face square to impact with the driver and woods so he slices the ball. More hook face woods reduces the amount of slice without him ever having to change that swing which leaves the face open with a square face wood.

4. The avg 20 hdcp cannot hit the 3, 4, 5 and sometimes even the 6 iron consistently well up in the air because the lofts of so many irons has decreased so much. Because so many retail golf stores insist on selling irons in a full 3-PW set (so they do not get stuck with 3, 4, 5 irons they cannot sell separately) this means the golfer has a bunch of irons he can't hit and should not have bought. But 20 hdcps can typically hit 20, 23, 26 degree high loft woods or hybrids more consistently up in the air so this is what the store should have sold him to go with an iron set that would only be #6 to wedges or #7 to wedges.

5. The avg 20 hdcp usually does not have a very high swing speed so his optimum driver loft is more likely to be higher than 12 or 13 and not lower. But either the store person does not tell him this or he on his own thinks that lower loft means more distance and higher loft means less distance, so he ends up with the 10.5 driver and loses distance.

6. This one goes for ALL golfers regardless of hdcp - most of the clubs sold off the rack are made with the same weight shaft, same weight grip so the total weights and the swingweights are pretty much always the same. But what if one golfer is strong with an aggressive swing, the next is weaker with a smoother tempo and others are in between? The golfer's tempo/transition force/strength needs to be matched to the total weight and swingweight so as to help ensure a higher level of shot consistency and on center hit consistency.

7. Few golfers ever get fit for the wedges and putter, but especially so the 20 hdcp player. Proper wedge and putter fitting can help a 20 hdcp get out of the sand more consistently, get chips/pitches a few feet closer to the hole and help them make 2, 3, 4 more putts per round than with just standard wedges and putters.

Anyone who has been in fitting for more than a year soon learns that it is the average golfers who see more dramatic benefit and sooner from proper fitting because these are the golfers who make swing mistakes for which proper fitting can reduce the severity of those swing mistakes on the outcome of the shot.

Please understand in proper fitting, we are not talking about turning 20 hdcps into 7's. We're talking about turning 20 hdcps into 15's or 13's - which if you ask most 20's. "would you be happy shooting scores that are 5 or 7 shots lower", I think they all would say yes. ALL the good fitters have had TONS of 20 hdcps for which they have done this because the avg golfers are where proper fitting really does make the most difference.

TOM

[wetdogsmell]

Tom- Thanks for the detailed response. It has made it perfectly clear what was causing my confusion. I was thinking of a Club Fitter ONLY as someone who tweaked the components of clubs (Loft, lie, length, stiffness etc.). What you described is much more than that. It's almost like a coach or advisor. Previously I was thinking that the fitter kind of worked within a narrow range like picking the right shaft for that 3-PW set or standard driver head. For some reason I didn't think that suggesting hybrids instead of long irons was something that they would do. Which probably just proves your point! If nobody tells them to mix/match their set they likely will just buy the standard set.

I'm glad everyone was patient enough to discuss this without having to punch me

[Alpha9.5]

Wouldn't you want the 20 hdcp's(anybody with inconsistant contact) to get lessons first to improve impact, then get fitted? If he gets fitted first, then improves swing, he will need to be fitted again.

[dmeriwether]

[size=3]
The underlying truth for me from all these good comments is a basic wisdom about club and swing: putting the right club in your grip boils down to working with a pro to fit the individual complex of multiple variables in both club and swing. Spending on clubs at a discount store is putting money in the wrong place. Consulting club and swing professionals is a better investment.[/size]
[size=3]
1. Fixation on changing equipment to improve performance is at best a distraction, at worst a waste of time. Equipment from off-the-shelf requires that a person and swing must conform to a pretty narrow set of parameters. A competent fitter with a combination of expertise, experience, and reliable data will handle the interaction of all the variables better than a golfer reading the hype on the net or suckering for one of the “12 myths that could wreck your game.” [/size]
[size=3]
2. Whether a 24 or a 2 handicap, 4 rounds a week or 6 rounds a year, most golfers wish they played a little better: hit better, managed the course better, putted better, scored better - except of course those who are just resigned to a repetition of bad play and results though years past frustration. What Tom is saying is the player’s goal is inherently contradictory to the mass market golf producers’ goal. Maximizing profit for stock holders is contradictory to focusing on player fit and performance. Some brands are famous for advertising, volume, and lack of quality control. Others spend less on promotion and work harder at quality and personal fitting. But they are all moving to the “adjust to the big-box volume” model as survival is threatened. You want a better game; they want a higher margin. You have an alternative…[/size]
[size=3]
3. Consult the professionals. The focus in the responses to Tom’s remarks here are about club buying. But there is another significant factor to remember. For those who want to improve their game and lower their scores, the primary contributing factor is money-well-spent in lessons on the tee over seasons with a good teaching pro/coach to improve the swing, [i]and[/i] some sessions with a fitter pro who can match a club to that improving swing. How many lessons you could buy for the cost of repeated club buying “fixes”? The alternative is to admit that the fun in golf is having new toys on the tee and a false comfort with bad results by blaming it on the clubs you just traded.[/size]
[size=3]
It’s no new insight to say that golf teaches life lessons: When you don’t know what to do, the best thing is to ask someone who knows more than you do - and preferably a lot more. As always, Wishon’s expertise [and he may define that word on golf clubs] is priceless - and seeing a "pro" for swing and club fit is the best investment in your game.[/size]

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Alpha9.5' timestamp='1356035727' post='6097059']
Wouldn't you want the 20 hdcp's(anybody with inconsistant contact) to get lessons first to improve impact, then get fitted? If he gets fitted first, then improves swing, he will need to be fitted again.
[/quote]

Absolutely. Please understand that we in professional fitting research do NOT believe that fitting is a replacement for lessons. In fact, every year at our fitting center here in Durango, there will be 6 to 10 golfers that we very gently and diplomatically tell them they would be better off if they took some lessons to work on some things and THEN come back to see us.

When I first started in the golf business in 1972, through 1979 I worked as a PGA teaching professional who did a lot of club repair on the side. (obviously the club side hooked me!) I also have stayed up on my swing knowledge and teaching side while I was developing my club engineering side, so I still do know the golf swing and do very much know the value of lessons and proper practice.

I also know from all this experience that unfortunately not very many golfers take lessons. Many don't have the money, the time nor the desire to work that hard to improve their swing. They're not that serious. Of those who are more serious and do take lessons, unfortunately again, many who start taking lessons never put the amount of practice into it and give up way too soon when they do not see immediate improvement after one or two lessons.

So many times, there we are with a 20 who isn't that good. But most 20's get the ball airborne 95% of the time or more, most 20's tend to miss much more in one direction than the other, and most 20's hit the ball off center more often than not. That right there sounds like a bad golfer to you as a good player, but to me and all the other good fitters out there, this is a typical example of a golfer we can definitely help through proper fitting.

Top half the shots, hit both pushes and pulls, rarely ever hit the ball on center - no, this is a golfer we will not fit and advise first to go take lessons to get a little bit better.

One of the other things that golfers need to understand about mid to higher handicap players is that as long as they are consistently inconsistent, fitting most definitely is going to help. And another way fitting helps such players is that when you get less athletically inclined golfers into clubs that are, 1) driver/woods shorter in length; 2) better set makeup that replaces hard to hit low loft irons with high loft woods or hybrids; 3) a total weight and swingweight that at least is a better match to his swing tempo and strength; 4) grips that fit perfectly for comfort - if and when the golfer then takes lessons, they most definitely learn faster. This we have proven with quite a number of British teaching pros.

So yes, lessons are always better but more times than not, lessons are not going to happen or be that successful so the fitting has to step in to do what it can to help them get a little improvement and more enjoyment.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356022536' post='6096007']
Isn't swingweight more of a personal preference measurement? It's not like without the lead tape the ball will stick to the clubhead. I'm not trying to be abrasive or anything.... I'm a hack and might not understand all the details.
[/quote]

Swingweight fitting is all about finding how much headweight feel the golfer needs to have so that his swing tempo, his transition move can be more consistent and repeatable. Most golfers who get the swingweight too low tend to get too quick with tempo, start the downswing too soon, miss hit the ball more often. Those with an outside in path using too light of a swingweight can get even more over the top and outside in. In general, those using too light of a swingweight tend to keep muttering to themselves, "If I could only just slow it down a little bit. . . . "

When swingweight is too high for the golfer, the obvious reaction is simply that the golfer works harder and labors to swing the club through the ball. Another symptom is pushing shots to the right and coming up off the ball as the golfer has to make more of a physical effort to swing the club.

So yes, it is a matter of feel but most definitely there are tendencies related to golfer strength and swing aggressiveness that have to be observed in swingweight fitting.

TOM

[moonshine]

[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356026572' post='6096331']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356025268' post='6096235']
I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.
[/quote]

Hard for me to consider that "reputable" from the limited info provided. That is not acting like a fitter in my opinion. If he really was a "fitter" with the customer's needs at hand he would adjust your present stuff inf necessary. e.g Decide your current driver head was fine but just change the shaft. Or correct the lie on your existing irons etc. . Does that also mean he wouldn't go back a year later to stuff he sold you and adjust it if your swing or strenth changed? Sheesh!
[/quote]
Reputable as in I found him through Mr. Wishon's web site! I have yet to make the appointment, since his fitting price would be at least $250 for several hours. He is a top 100 fitter by accredited US group that was also linked in thread starter.

[andre112]

Buying golf clubs is like buying running shoes.
You need shoes that fit your feet length, width, arch, and pronation.
However, any marathon champ still can out run you with any shoes or even without shoes, when you have properly fitted shoes.
But your feet won't hurt when you run and it takes less effort to run.
And you are more likely to improve faster without giving up.

Imagine shoes stores only sells size 8, 10, and 12. They come with different insole for "adjustablilty".
That's current retail golf shop is like!

[kloyd0306]

Several comments/responses seem to suggest that TW has an "ulterior motive" - that of promoting fitting to be far preferable to buying off the rack for financial gain.

The so called "business model" of the major OEMs is all about financial gain. In a shrinking market pie (there are more golfers leaving the game than joining) the major manufacturers are simply trying to grab a bigger slice and their marketing practices are all geared towards the product.

The difference in TW's approach is a recognition that all golfers are different and that the equipment should match the golfer - not the other way round.

When manufacturers make tens of thousands of drivers, or fairway woods, or hybrids, or sets of irons, or wedges, or putters - WHO ARE THEY MAKING THEM FOR?

The answer is: They don't know. They are, in fact, merely guessing and basing that guess on some bell curve statistic that a 38 inch, 61 degree #5 iron will fit most players.

Well, here is a provable statistic that NO manufacturer wants you to know. A company I worked for from 2004 to 2007 kept height, wrist-to-ground, in-seam, hip-to-ground, shoulder-to-ground and shoulder width measurements from more than 1600 fittings.

These numbers were applied to the big name brands' standard specifications (remembering that TMAG's and Callaway's standards are not the same as Mizuno's) and the results were very surprising.

ONE GOLFER IN EIGHT FITS STANDARD LENGTH/STANDARD LIE (regardless of brand).

Which ever way you look at those findings - the odds are truly lousy that off the rack irons are a good investment.

Worse - these numbers only involve two variables - length and lie. Add further variables such as shaft flex, shaft weight, shaft material and grip size - the permutations are mind boggling.

The fact is: The major OEMs cannot hope to satisfy all the possibilities so they narrow them down to a handful. Mass production can never hope to cover all the bases let alone satisfy personal wants and desires (such as personalization, colors, etc).

Very early in this thread I commented that golf shops will carry up to five sizes of men's clothing and as many as 14 different sizes of men's shoes yet over in the club department they carry standard length and inch over. The choice is laughable.

As consumers, we get to choose which way we want to buy our equipment. TW makes a strong and valid point that, not only are the major OEMs NOT interested in fitting (it's too difficult for their business model), but that if you choose to go the "off the rack" route, be prepared for continued disappointment or disillusionment. The manufacturer is not interested in taking responsibility for fitting, which is why they leave it up to the retailer.

Therein lies the difference - clubfitters focus on the individual (not the product) AND they take resposibility for their fittings.

As previously mentioned - the manufacturer who can offer a simple, effective, dimesional static fitting method or system (superior to Ping's) will grab a sizeable chunk of a shrinking market and will generate brand loyalty at the same time.

TW's article is a worthwhile step in attempting to separate mass production from personalization. Most golfers would pefer the latter but are perhaps blinded by the huge marketing $$$$$$$ spent convincing us (and apparently succeeding) that we are all the same.

If you believe we are all the same - the next car you buy need not have adjustable seats, adjustable steering wheel or adjustable mirrors.

[Black Label Johnny]

That's why everyone should get irons from Scratch.

[Alpha9.5]

I agree with what you are saying Tom, I didn't mean anything by what I said. I really enjoy reading your post and learning from someone as yourself. Often times you listen to someone who thinks they know and really just use their way to benefit them. Their way is the gospel, so to speak.

[stage1350]

[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356048153' post='6098017']
...ONE GOLFER IN EIGHT FITS STANDARD LENGTH/STANDARD LIE (regardless of brand)...
[/quote]

Is that American standard or Japanese standard?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1356048153' post='6098017']
Several comments/responses seem to suggest that TW has an "ulterior motive" - that of promoting fitting to be far preferable to buying off the rack for financial gain.

The so called "business model" of the major OEMs is all about financial gain. In a shrinking market pie (there are more golfers leaving the game than joining) the major manufacturers are simply trying to grab a bigger slice and their marketing practices are all geared towards the product.

The difference in TW's approach is a recognition that all golfers are different and that the equipment should match the golfer - not the other way round.

When manufacturers make tens of thousands of drivers, or fairway woods, or hybrids, or sets of irons, or wedges, or putters - WHO ARE THEY MAKING THEM FOR?

The answer is: They don't know. They are, in fact, merely guessing and basing that guess on some bell curve statistic that a 38 inch, 61 degree #5 iron will fit most players.

Well, here is a provable statistic that NO manufacturer wants you to know. A company I worked for from 2004 to 2007 kept height, wrist-to-ground, in-seam, hip-to-ground, shoulder-to-ground and shoulder width measurements from more than 1600 fittings.

These numbers were applied to the big name brands' standard specifications (remembering that TMAG's and Callaway's standards are not the same as Mizuno's) and the results were very surprising.

ONE GOLFER IN EIGHT FITS STANDARD LENGTH/STANDARD LIE (regardless of brand).

Which ever way you look at those findings - the odds are truly lousy that off the rack irons are a good investment.

Worse - these numbers only involve two variables - length and lie. Add further variables such as shaft flex, shaft weight, shaft material and grip size - the permutations are mind boggling.

The fact is: The major OEMs cannot hope to satisfy all the possibilities so they narrow them down to a handful. Mass production can never hope to cover all the bases let alone satisfy personal wants and desires (such as personalization, colors, etc).

Very early in this thread I commented that golf shops will carry up to five sizes of men's clothing and as many as 14 different sizes of men's shoes yet over in the club department they carry standard length and inch over. The choice is laughable.

As consumers, we get to choose which way we want to buy our equipment. TW makes a strong and valid point that, not only are the major OEMs NOT interested in fitting (it's too difficult for their business model), but that if you choose to go the "off the rack" route, be prepared for continued disappointment or disillusionment. The manufacturer is not interested in taking responsibility for fitting, which is why they leave it up to the retailer.

Therein lies the difference - clubfitters focus on the individual (not the product) AND they take resposibility for their fittings.

As previously mentioned - the manufacturer who can offer a simple, effective, dimesional static fitting method or system (superior to Ping's) will grab a sizeable chunk of a shrinking market and will generate brand loyalty at the same time.

TW's article is a worthwhile step in attempting to separate mass production from personalization. Most golfers would pefer the latter but are perhaps blinded by the huge marketing $$$$$$$ spent convincing us (and apparently succeeding) that we are all the same.

If you believe we are all the same - the next car you buy need not have adjustable seats, adjustable steering wheel or adjustable mirrors.
[/quote]

I agree with your basic premise, however, not with what appears to be critical expectations, like limited club setups in LGS. Shoe, socks, gloves, etc have minimal flooring costs. Diverse sets of clubs that offer unique specs makes no practical business sense due to outlandish inventory costs to the LGS.

As for your odds of one in eight fitting, that's a stretch, and TW's assertion about OEM not wanting to do fitting, that's correct. But its a stretch to say what's found in the LGS is not worthy of most golfers. I bought clubs off the rack and took them to a builder friend, thinking that was prudent. Then in 2007 I walked into my LGS to test some clubs, bought my current clubs off the rack, and still enjoying them as stock. I am of the mind, most golfers benefit from proper fitting during the learning phase. Once the swing is grooved, presuming they are somewhat normal in stature, their chances of effectively using off the rack clubs increase. Knowledge and quirks lead to fine tuning... like my wedges.

I agree - club fitters "attempt" to focus on the individual, but most of them sell custom clubs. TW is in a unique position offering perspective and advice, which is not comparable to the average Joe club builder that's trying to make a living off selling components with fitting. TW can afford to approach the subject from a broader overview, even idealistic. Not Joe club builder that's working out of his garage or in small store front, trying to pay the bills. Later Joe fitter is more then likely to sell the naive buyer what's in stock, then fit it as best he can, before dealing true custom this or that. I've seen it many times, and experienced it more then once in CA & AZ.

As for adjustable seats, adjustable steering wheel and mirrors; not much different than changing the channel on the radio, and loft, lie and grips on clubs. You're really stretching it to suggest those are some how custom tailoring. Custom tailoring is pulling the driver head, drilling a hole and position rat glue in the right place to make sure head design isn't tampered with, yet swing weight is adjusted to exactly what the user wants. Custom is my E0 sw LW.

[Arnie]

 

Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

 

By Tom Wishon

 

GolfWRX Contributor

 

You hit the nail on the head with these words," the golf equipment industry has become a commodity business."

 

Thanks for your wisdom!

Any product traded as a commodity sinks to the levels you have described.

[jmvargas]

....very interesting topic and a lot of valid points raised..

....bottom line is it is a personal choice--ie--custom-fitted clubs or not..

IMHO there is no amount of marketing that will convince someone who does not have the desire and means for custom-fitting equipment and vice-versa..

let the best man--or manufacturer--prevail!!...

[TomWishon]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356023847' post='6096119']

Will the average golfer (not golfwrx'er) see much difference in performance when it comes to swingweight or shaft characteristics? Besides the shafts being too long for a regular sized person will the minor variances in stiffness/kickpoint etc produce better results when in the hands of a chump like me who doesn't have a reliable swing?

One of the previous Wishon articles on shafts seemed to describe the influence to be somewhat limited and really only for highspeed/late release swings. Again.... Maybe i'm not understanding things properly.
[/quote]

I continue to thank you for asking the questions that you ask so that more people can know all these things that for so long have been cloaked in misinformation and confusion and personal bias.

SHAFT
The WEIGHT of the shaft is very important for every single golfer because it controls the total weight of the club. While there are nuances, the basics are simple - the more aggressive you swing, the more forceful you start the downswing, the more strength you use in hitting the ball, typically the heavier the shaft should be so as to get the total weight to match better to your natural sense of more aggressiveness when you swing. Vice versa, the more passive you swing, the more gradual and smooth you start the downswing, typically the lighter the shaft should be so as to get the total weight to match better to your natural sense of smoothness or less aggressiveness when you swing.

Give a strong, aggressive, forceful golfer a shaft that is too light and he tends to get even more quick with his tempo and struggles to find his best swing tempo control and consistency because he's fighting trying to slow things down. Give a weaker, smoother more passive swinging golfer a shaft that is too heavy and he struggles to find the strength and effort to swing the club.

The shaft's FLEX and BEND PROFILE (aka the overall stiffness and distribution of the stiffness over the length of the shaft) is progressively more of a shot performance element for golfers with a later and later release, and as clubhead speed increases more and more. Now that's not to say the early release golfer with a slower swing speed should use ANY flex. What we're saying is that such early release slower swinging players will not see any change in launch angle or spin from changing flex and bend profile. But what they WILL experience from still being fit for the right stiffness to match their swing speed and release is a more solid feeling of impact when they hit the ball. Playing too stiff of a shaft makes impact feel dead and boardy for ANY GOLFER.

SWINGWEIGHT
I think I covered this one in another post on this thread. Swingweight is somewhat like total weight. You typically want to match strong, aggressive, forceful swinging golfers with higher swingweights. To put such a golfer into a club with a low swingweight means they cannot feel the head enough to help them use that feeling to better control their tempo and timing. And conversely, you typically want to match weaker, smoother, passive swinging golfers with lower swingweights. To put such a golfer into a club with a high swingweight means they struggle with having to make more of a physical effort to swing the club which in turn causes their swing to break down more, usually from using their hands and arms too much to get that extra effort to swing that club with too heavy of a headweight feel.

Hope this helps,
TOM

[Cwebb]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1356028960' post='6096523']
The weakness in Mr. Wishon's post is that back in the day of 43" drivers, wood woods and steel shafts, non-jacked lofts--people didn't hit those clubs worth a damn either. Everybody had 2-pw irons, but it was considered a near miracle to effectively hit a 2 iron. Many, many players in those days hit 3 woods off the tee rather than driver. I have my set of mid-sixties Haig Ultras in the barn, and I assure you that a modern 4 iron is easier to hit than my old Haigs. And I loved those irons. To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.
[/quote]

You're forgetting that the clubheads themselves were more difficult to hit "relatively solid" back when 43-43.5" was the standard length. Is it possible that many players from those decades, should have been using a driver length of lets say 42"? Those who couldn't find that very small area the size of a quarter on the face of a sub 200cc head? No doubt, but many never even considered the option, because the how and why was not readily available.

The point is that with today's driver head technology and the fact that they are easier to hit,... many players "cancel out" a lot of this benefit when they play a length that is too long.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1356028960' post='6096523']
The weakness in Mr. Wishon's post is that back in the day of 43" drivers, wood woods and steel shafts, non-jacked lofts--people didn't hit those clubs worth a damn either. Everybody had 2-pw irons, but it was considered a near miracle to effectively hit a 2 iron. Many, many players in those days hit 3 woods off the tee rather than driver. I have my set of mid-sixties Haig Ultras in the barn, and I assure you that a modern 4 iron is easier to hit than my old Haigs. And I loved those irons. To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.
[/quote]

Back when drivers were 43" and irons were #2-PW sets, the business model of the golf industry was still a standard off the rack with NO custom fitting going on then. Golfers back then still bought clubs made to one series of standards, yet all the golfers were just as different back then as they are today in terms of their size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics.

While the drivers and woods were shorter by a bunch than today, the standard off the rack characteristic of those shorter woods that got in the way of golfers still having some problems was the fact that these woods were all VERY heavy in total weight. All woods back in the 43" driver/42" 3 wood era were made with a 120-125 gram steel shaft so the total weight of these clubs was too heavy for a lot of golfers.

Much lighter weight graphite shafts did not really begin to become part of the big companies' standard specifications until well into the 80s, beyond the time when the standard driver length had begun to rapidly increase.
Now as to the 2 iron - back then the std loft of a 2 iron was 20*. Some companies today are making their 4 irons with about that loft - for most, 20* is the average 3 iron loft these days. So in reality, yes, a 20* iron has always been and will always be a loft that is too low in an iron to hit consistently solid and high.

But the main reason that average ability golfers have ALWAYS struggled with equipment is because the industry has always pursued this standard off the rack, one size fits all manner of offering clubs to a population of golfers who have always been quite different from each other in their size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics.

TOM

[Shambles]

[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356041166' post='6097407']
[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356026572' post='6096331']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356025268' post='6096235']
I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.
[/quote]

Hard for me to consider that "reputable" from the limited info provided. That is not acting like a fitter in my opinion. If he really was a "fitter" with the customer's needs at hand he would adjust your present stuff inf necessary. e.g Decide your current driver head was fine but just change the shaft. Or correct the lie on your existing irons etc. . Does that also mean he wouldn't go back a year later to stuff he sold you and adjust it if your swing or strenth changed? Sheesh!
[/quote]
Reputable as in I found him through Mr. Wishon's web site! I have yet to make the appointment, since his fitting price would be at least $250 for several hours. He is a top 100 fitter by accredited US group that was also linked in thread starter.
[/quote]

I consider such a man disreputable and would think that at the least he is not as much of a fitter as his credentials purport. A condition that you must purchase his brands makes any recommendation from him suspect. Adjusting an existing set is part of a fitter's work even if he has to ask for a waiver from you to bend cast clubs. He sounds more like a salesman pretending to be a fitter. I think you would do better for yourself to keep looking for a fitter elsewhere.


Shambles

[gunmetal]

[quote name='nitram' timestamp='1356019598' post='6095741']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1355985723' post='6094705']
Is fitting beneficial? Of course. Will it make a golfer who isnt completely dedicated to improving their game better? Probably not.


Take a good golfer and give him an off the rack set, and he'll still be good. Give a poor golfer a custom set, and he'll still be a poor golfer.

[/quote]

Bingo

Golf and Marksmanship have a lot in common
[/quote]

Dead wrong. While practice and dedication are unquestionably the first step towards improvement, how many of us can dedicate the time necessary to go from a 25 to a 5? Consider the following: Take a good golfer and give him an off the rack set and he'll likely be able to overcome most of the flaws of the ill fitted equipment to play decently. He'll also comment on how they feel like poop and begin to get frustrated. Take a poor golfer and chop his 46" 50g shaft down to 43.5" and put a 75g shaft and watch his smile light up the room when he discovers what on center contact actually feels like. Custom fit that same poor golfer for hybrids at the proper length and weight through 7 iron and you'll get the same smile. It's strange to think people still think custom fitting only benefits the good golfers. The irony is it benefits the poor golfers more. They just don't like to shell out the clams like the lower handicappers will.

[Shambles]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1356116176' post='6101345']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1356028960' post='6096523']
The weakness in Mr. Wishon's post is that back in the day of 43" drivers, wood woods and steel shafts, non-jacked lofts--people didn't hit those clubs worth a damn either. Everybody had 2-pw irons, but it was considered a near miracle to effectively hit a 2 iron. Many, many players in those days hit 3 woods off the tee rather than driver. I have my set of mid-sixties Haig Ultras in the barn, and I assure you that a modern 4 iron is easier to hit than my old Haigs. And I loved those irons. To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.
[/quote]

You're forgetting that the clubheads themselves were more difficult to hit "relatively solid" back when 43-43.5" was the standard length. Is it possible that many players from those decades, should have been using a driver length of lets say 42"? Those who couldn't find that very small area the size of a quarter on the face of a sub 200cc head? No doubt, but many never even considered the option, because the how and why was not readily available.

The point is that with today's driver head technology and the fact that they are easier to hit,... many players "cancel out" a lot of this benefit when they play a length that is too long.
[/quote]

I doubt those Drivers were all that difficult to hit simply because of size. I thought they were already gigantic when I first looked at them and my first thought back then was to wonder if such a thing could be swung at all. There were difficulties to overcome, mostly mental by my memory. Their cost was significant, for their time and the fear of damaging them to the need for repairs at the pro shop was there. Today's metal at least gives the false impression of indestructibility and even the hope of a touch up at home. Wood showed it's scars unless refinished by a good club smith. Further, the club was heavy and the player needed to work up the strength to be able to use it. Not so difficult but you needed to want to play enough to get there regardless of how big you were.

Today's players are many times better off. Not only do they get better equipment that adhere to standards more closely, they also get much more qualified knowledge at the touch of a button and can watch the best players in the world from home. Granted there are still limitations, they are no longer as many nor as fearsome. The pro of the old days often haunted pro shops looking for clubs that felt right to them and frequently ended up carrying a mixed set into competition. The amateurs had the same problems but many were oblivious to the fact they had a problem and simply thought they were not good enough. The availability of knowledge has been a godsend, albeit, somewhat abused these days.


Shambles

[Shambles]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1356125012' post='6101933']
[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1356116176' post='6101345']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1356028960' post='6096523']
The weakness in Mr. Wishon's post is that back in the day of 43" drivers, wood woods and steel shafts, non-jacked lofts--people didn't hit those clubs worth a damn either. Everybody had 2-pw irons, but it was considered a near miracle to effectively hit a 2 iron. Many, many players in those days hit 3 woods off the tee rather than driver. I have my set of mid-sixties Haig Ultras in the barn, and I assure you that a modern 4 iron is easier to hit than my old Haigs. And I loved those irons. To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.
[/quote]

You're forgetting that the clubheads themselves were more difficult to hit "relatively solid" back when 43-43.5" was the standard length. Is it possible that many players from those decades, should have been using a driver length of lets say 42"? Those who couldn't find that very small area the size of a quarter on the face of a sub 200cc head? No doubt, but many never even considered the option, because the how and why was not readily available.

The point is that with today's driver head technology and the fact that they are easier to hit,... many players "cancel out" a lot of this benefit when they play a length that is too long.
[/quote]

I doubt those Drivers were all that difficult to hit simply because of size. I thought they were already gigantic when I first looked at them and my first thought back then was to wonder if such a thing could be swung at all. There were difficulties to overcome, mostly mental by my memory. Their cost was significant, for their time and the fear of damaging them to the need for repairs at the pro shop was there. Today's metal at least gives the false impression of indestructibility and even the hope of a touch up at home. Wood showed it's scars unless refinished by a good club smith. Further, the club was heavy and the player needed to work up the strength to be able to use it. Not so difficult but you needed to want to play enough to get there regardless of how big you were.

Today's players are many times better off. Not only do they get better equipment that adhere to standards more closely, they also get much more qualified knowledge at the touch of a button and can watch the best players in the world from home. In the old days knowledge was filtered by the ignorance of writers. These days we get to see the ignorance of all equally. Granted there are still limitations, they are no longer as many nor as fearsome. The pro of the old days often haunted pro shops looking for clubs that felt right to them and frequently ended up carrying a mixed set into competition. The amateurs had the same problems but many were oblivious to the fact they had a problem and simply thought they were not good enough. The availability of knowledge has been a godsend, albeit, somewhat abused these days.


Shambles
[/quote]

[BirdieBob]

Certainly custom fitting to obtain clubs specs that are best for an individual is the most proper way. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the $ or time to find an excellent fitter to do this job. And as a result we end up in the super golf store with a net and LM. At that point it is trail and error to find the ultimate setup for us. We will find something that seems best, but in the end a much more detailed fitting would likely get us something different and more accurately fit.

I remember watching David Frost on the range at the Players in 1997 trying a bag full of drivers. Pulled one out and hit it about 5-10 times and set it aside; pulled another and same...on and on with what looked like about 10 drivers I guess with different shafts. He finally settled on a driver and it stayed in the bag. For him he knew about what he wanted and had drivers with shafts in the vicinity of what he knew was best based upon his years of trying various models.

I guess for most of us, we will remain in the trial and error golf equipment camp since it the most easily assessible method of finding equipment....just like David.

In addition, while the "Fitter" probably only has a limited selection of OEM clubs (or none?), the super golf store has all the latest and greatest, Nike Covert, TM RBZ Stage 2, Cally RFE, etc. to try....again part of the OEM selling regimine compared to the "Fitter". Tough road for the "Fitters" of the world when they are up against such hype by the OEMs of the world.
And for 95% of golfers what they "find" by trial and error in the super store will be just fine for them...after all they tried 'em.

[b]The Solution: [/b] To have a "Fitter" with [i]Toms credentials [/i]at these golf super stores where all the latest and greatest are located. Then you have best of both worlds! You tell'em that I like the looks of those new xyz woods and abc irons, and they will get you fit perfectly into those....tough to find this available...per Toms credentials anyway.

To demonstrate just how intense this marketing hype is by the OEMs...there actually are people that will pre-order clubs (nobody on the WRX does this of course) just based upon the fact that they are the latest and greatest, ie "longer", "straighter", "softer", "newest", etc. Suppose Tom agrees with this method of obtaining clubs? If you know exactly what you need per Toms measurements then that is probably ok, but most have no clue. To overcome this entrenched method of marketing and getting people to a "Fitter" I highly doubt will ever occur.

[bellairemi]

I disagree strongly that the fitters refusal to rework an existing set of clubs somehow makes him dishonest. If you are guaranteeing as part of your build process exact shafts flexes, etc. you cannot leave yourself at the mercy of clubheads that may be way off weight spec and are probably taper tip. When I fitted and built, I had the same policy as does the fitter I now go to since I am no longer in the business.

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1356122736' post='6101785']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356041166' post='6097407']
[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356026572' post='6096331']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356025268' post='6096235']
I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.
[/quote]

Hard for me to consider that "reputable" from the limited info provided. That is not acting like a fitter in my opinion. If he really was a "fitter" with the customer's needs at hand he would adjust your present stuff inf necessary. e.g Decide your current driver head was fine but just change the shaft. Or correct the lie on your existing irons etc. . Does that also mean he wouldn't go back a year later to stuff he sold you and adjust it if your swing or strenth changed? Sheesh!
[/quote]
Reputable as in I found him through Mr. Wishon's web site! I have yet to make the appointment, since his fitting price would be at least $250 for several hours. He is a top 100 fitter by accredited US group that was also linked in thread starter.
[/quote]

I consider such a man disreputable and would think that at the least he is not as much of a fitter as his credentials purport. A condition that you must purchase his brands makes any recommendation from him suspect. Adjusting an existing set is part of a fitter's work even if he has to ask for a waiver from you to bend cast clubs. He sounds more like a salesman pretending to be a fitter. I think you would do better for yourself to keep looking for a fitter elsewhere.


Shambles
[/quote]

[Shambles]

[quote name='bellairemi' timestamp='1356125941' post='6101995']
I disagree strongly that the fitters refusal to rework an existing set of clubs somehow makes him dishonest. If you are guaranteeing as part of your build process exact shafts flexes, etc. you cannot leave yourself at the mercy of clubheads that may be way off weight spec and are probably taper tip. When I fitted and built, I had the same policy as does the fitter I now go to since I am no longer in the business.

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1356122736' post='6101785']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356041166' post='6097407']
[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356026572' post='6096331']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356025268' post='6096235']
I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.
[/quote]

Hard for me to consider that "reputable" from the limited info provided. That is not acting like a fitter in my opinion. If he really was a "fitter" with the customer's needs at hand he would adjust your present stuff inf necessary. e.g Decide your current driver head was fine but just change the shaft. Or correct the lie on your existing irons etc. . Does that also mean he wouldn't go back a year later to stuff he sold you and adjust it if your swing or strenth changed? Sheesh!
[/quote]
Reputable as in I found him through Mr. Wishon's web site! I have yet to make the appointment, since his fitting price would be at least $250 for several hours. He is a top 100 fitter by accredited US group that was also linked in thread starter.
[/quote]

I consider such a man disreputable and would think that at the least he is not as much of a fitter as his credentials purport. A condition that you must purchase his brands makes any recommendation from him suspect. Adjusting an existing set is part of a fitter's work even if he has to ask for a waiver from you to bend cast clubs. He sounds more like a salesman pretending to be a fitter. I think you would do better for yourself to keep looking for a fitter elsewhere.


Shambles
[/quote]
[/quote]

Thing is even the home hobby shop can avail of digital scales, swing weight scales and freq machines. Good fitters have all these and much more to be able to quickly take the measure of any single club or set of clubs. Likewise, clubs are no longer as difficult to take apart, measure the components thereof and reassemble. Even the golfer himself can be put on video and put into a computer to measure his swing flow digitally. I know this because I visited such a shop a few years ago and much envied the toys the man had. It's no longer the rough and ready of the old days and new guys have a much better potential for development.

The trick is to match the player to the swing theory that most suits him and hope that he is willing and able to practice enough to make that swing easier for him to do repeatedly but with intellectual consciousness so that he will be able to adapt it to the varying conditions of the fairways and know in advance the effect of those adaptations. There are two people in this dance and if one dancer insists on a mold at step one, I consider it excessively restrictive and definitely not a necessity. It's simply dishonest and tastes like someone getting while the getting is good. The working parts of clubs are very much common to a very small number of molds but the individual biases and preferences of players is very difficult to overcome and not necessarily worth the bother if the fitter has any skill to speak of. The player needs to like what he is looking at when he looks at his bag.


Shambles

[mukster]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356026197' post='6096297']
I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.
[/quote]

I for one live in the Vancouver area and I spoke briefly to myspinonit via PM regarding club fitting in this area a while ago. I will go on record as saying that there is no good club fitting readily available. The only fitters that are available will fit what they sell. If I want Titleist, there is a guy. If I want Cally or KZG, there are guys(dunno if the KZG guy is still in business).The local Golf Town fitting is questionable, I have heard a couple of horror stories, and have a few of my own.

So as far as I am concerned, if you are a new golfer wanting to get into the game, unless you play Cally, KZG, Titleist, or you are prepared to gamble at the local Golf Town, it is going to be tough. I want my eclectic golf bag to be fit for me, I would love to try various different shaft options, but no go. So I guess as far as fitting is concerned, unless I want to play a select few brands, in reality there is no club fitting available to me. I appreciate and agree with what Tom has written. However, it is not always that simple, and Google, despite being easy to use, does not always offer satisfactory answers. Try and Google cheap, hot, good looking hookers, for example.

If anyone is aware of a good club fitter in this area that fits any/all brand(s), by all means send me the name, for I have been unable to find that person.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

How could a stand-alone club fitter offer to do a specific fitting/trial session for to driver, fairways woods, hybrids, wedges, irons, and putters with the golfer getting to choose each of those from 6-10 different OEM brands?

Meaningful fitting means getting exactly the proper length, lie, swingweight, loft, static weight, face angle and appearance at address from a specific clubhead on a specific shaft swung by the specific golfer. He can't "fit" you to a Diamana shaft in a Nike driver and then sell you that shaft in a Ping driver instead, can he? It won't be "fitted" any more.

So now you walk in with your Adams driver (which you had the shaft switched out on), a couple of Ping fairway woods, Taylormade irons (that you special ordered with non-standard shafts), the pair of Scratch wedges you just picked up on BST last month and a custom-made putter that's never set up quite right for you at address. You want him to "adjust" all that stuff to "fit" you perfectly. And while he's at it maybe go ahead and swap the fairway woods for some TEE ones. The guy would have to have hundreds of clubheads and shafts, most of which are not even available except as finished clubs from the OEMs.

I'd think if a fitter/clubmaker offers a reasonable selection of shafts and clubhead and guarantees that he can build you a set that fits you perfectly, that's asking about as much as a standalone business could offer. Or he could specialize in one or two OEM brands but then aren't we back to the same complaint? He is "dishonestly" only offering those two brands? And what the heck is he supposed to do with a set of irons that don't remotely suit your swing or game, with ill-fitting shafts and a loft progression that's way off from your needs? Tear down your two-year-old beat-up irons and turn them magically into the irons you should have bought in the first place? Claiming to do that would be dishonest IMO, not insisting on building you a set that actually fits from the beginning.

Geez, it's no wonder some of you guys get suckered into those places that sell you a $1,000 set of Mizuno irons and charge another $1,000 to tear them down and "blueprint" them with some exotic shaft, then tweak all the lofts and lies a degree or two. They're dealing in wish fulfillment, not fitting. Everybody wants to dream about being a Tour player who gets his preferred OEM to build a set just like the off-the-rack ones they advertise except totally "custom".