Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='mukster' timestamp='1356137814' post='6102645']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356026197' post='6096297']
I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.
[/quote]

I for one live in the Vancouver area and I spoke briefly to myspinonit via PM regarding club fitting in this area a while ago. I will go on record as saying that there is no good club fitting readily available. The only fitters that are available will fit what they sell. If I want Titleist, there is a guy. If I want Cally or KZG, there are guys(dunno if the KZG guy is still in business).The local Golf Town fitting is questionable, I have heard a couple of horror stories, and have a few of my own.

So as far as I am concerned, if you are a new golfer wanting to get into the game, unless you play Cally, KZG, Titleist, or you are prepared to gamble at the local Golf Town, it is going to be tough. I want my eclectic golf bag to be fit for me, I would love to try various different shaft options, but no go. So I guess as far as fitting is concerned, unless I want to play a select few brands, in reality there is no club fitting available to me. I appreciate and agree with what Tom has written. However, it is not always that simple, and Google, despite being easy to use, does not always offer satisfactory answers. Try and Google cheap, hot, good looking hookers, for example.

If anyone is aware of a good club fitter in this area that fits any/all brand(s), by all means send me the name, for I have been unable to find that person.
[/quote]

Which proves my point, there are many available, you might not like them, but they are available.

[bluedot]

Another great post; thank you, Tom, for taking the time to do this.

I bought a driver several years ago based on a big box fitting; is was a disaster and an expensive one at that. It could have been a case study for the type of problem you describe. The driver that replaced that one was fitted properly by a master clubfitter, and the difference was extraordinary.

It has to be a little discouraging, though, to read the responses that argue that clubfitting is overrated, unimportant, too expensive, and so on.

The idea that golfer who really cares about their equipment and really wants to play their best would NOT get properly fitted is just stunning to me. The most expensive fittings are a fraction of the cost of a set of clubs, and many (maybe most?) fitters roll the cost of the fitting into the purchase if you buy from them.

The argument about whether to get clubs built vs. buying a fitted set is an interesting and valid argument. Which OEM's fitting system is better is a valid argument. There are other valid arguments to be had about clubfitting as well.

But the idea that clubfitting is anything other than essential if you want to play your best golf is just nuts.

[Sean2]

It depends on what you mean by a "proper" fitting. Blueprinting, etc., for 8 irons can cost approximately $480, the fitting around $125 to $150, the irons $799 to $999, custom shafts (let's say SteelFibers), another $320. So, right there is roughly $1700 for 8 irons. Factor in woods, wedges, a putter and driver and you are talking big dollars.

I had a custom fit and it was very well done. But once I knew my specs I figured I could forgo the fitting and blueprinting in the future, at least for the irons.

It's a tough call for those of us on GolfWRX who like to mess around with new equipment. If you know you're going to keep your equipment forever and a day the custom fitting, as described above, is not a bad way to go, but if you like to try new equipment, going through a custom fitting annually can get very expensive.

[bluedot]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356187502' post='6104115']
It depends on what you mean by a "proper" fitting. Blueprinting, etc., for 8 irons can cost approximately $480, the fitting around $125 to $150, the irons $799 to $999, custom shafts (let's say SteelFibers), another $320. So, right there is roughly $1700 for 8 irons. Factor in woods, wedges, a putter and driver and you are talking big dollars.

I had a custom fit and it was very well done. But once I knew my specs I figured I could forgo the fitting and blueprinting in the future, at least for the irons.

It's a tough call for those of us on GolfWRX who like to mess around with new equipment. If you know you're going to keep your equipment forever and a day the custom fitting, as described above, is not a bad way to go, but if you like to try new equipment, going through a custom fitting annually can get very expensive.
[/quote]

OK, I get that. You are talking about the absolute high end of fitting, and those are big dollars, for sure. I also realize that I'm an outlier on this site; don't have a single club in my bag that is still being manufactured. Everything is fitted to me, and I have zero interest in hitting a different driver just because it is painted white. That's my bias.

But I would assume the purpose of trying new equipment is to see if you can play better than you are playing now, right? Which is also the purpose of getting fitted, right? And if you try very much new stuff, the dollars QUICKLY exceed the dollars for even the most expensive fitting.

And so the question seems to me to be which way is the best way to play the best golf? And the answer seems obvious to me: get fitted by somebody really good, and stay with that equipment. It is the best way, and maybe the cheapest in the long run, to eliminate variables and know that you are equipped properly.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.

[mukster]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356142197' post='6102879']
[quote name='mukster' timestamp='1356137814' post='6102645']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356026197' post='6096297']
I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.
[/quote]

I for one live in the Vancouver area and I spoke briefly to myspinonit via PM regarding club fitting in this area a while ago. I will go on record as saying that there is no good club fitting readily available. The only fitters that are available will fit what they sell. If I want Titleist, there is a guy. If I want Cally or KZG, there are guys(dunno if the KZG guy is still in business).The local Golf Town fitting is questionable, I have heard a couple of horror stories, and have a few of my own.

So as far as I am concerned, if you are a new golfer wanting to get into the game, unless you play Cally, KZG, Titleist, or you are prepared to gamble at the local Golf Town, it is going to be tough. I want my eclectic golf bag to be fit for me, I would love to try various different shaft options, but no go. So I guess as far as fitting is concerned, unless I want to play a select few brands, in reality there is no club fitting available to me. I appreciate and agree with what Tom has written. However, it is not always that simple, and Google, despite being easy to use, does not always offer satisfactory answers. Try and Google cheap, hot, good looking hookers, for example.

If anyone is aware of a good club fitter in this area that fits any/all brand(s), by all means send me the name, for I have been unable to find that person.
[/quote]

Which proves my point, there are many available, you might not like them, but they are available.
[/quote]

I wasn't aware this was about you proving a point, Thrill. I was indicating the harsh reality of wanting to get fit properly out here in the Vancouver area and the fact that I cannot find anyone to do it for me. Just because there are fitters that show up on a Google search does not mean that it will in any way be of value to a golfer wanting to get fit in real life. Anyway, you have found club fitters in Vancouver, so I guess all of us should be happy out here, being schooled in Google 'n all, despite the fact that the results don't really help any of us
Back to the topic at hand, didn't mean to detract from the OPs post.

[DaveMac]

I have been reading this thread with interest and while I do feel there are problems with the way golf clubs are currently sold and marketed (product volume and performance hype) I don’t think the area of OEM custom fitting is the real issue.

To balance the argument I did a little research on how well 5 OEM’s match up to Tom Wishon’s 13 fitting specifications. You can see from the table below that they match up pretty well.

I realise that there can still be a gap in the range of options available and the quality of fitting provided, but that is the case no matter where the fitting is obtained.

Specifications / Manufacturer	Callaway	Mizuno	Ping	Taylormade	Titleist
Loft	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Lie	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Face Angle *	Y			Y	Y
Length	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Swingweight *
Total Weight *	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Shaft Overall Flex	Y	Y*	Y	Y	Y
Shaft Bend Point	Y	Y*	Y	Y	Y
Shaft Weight	Y	Y*	Y	Y	Y
Set Make-Up	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Grip Style	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Grip Size	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Clubhead Design	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y

The table contains a few asterisks (*’s) which require expansion.

Face angle: I have assumed that this fitting parameter is specific only to the driver and so only the OEM’s who have adjustable or draw model drivers have been acknowledged as capable of meeting this requirement.

Swingweight: None of the OEM’s use swing weight as a fitting parameter but they do have the ability to change club swingweight within a modest range.

Total Weight: Once again OEM’s don’t consider this as an independent fitting parameter but all OEM’s have a wide range of shaft weights which greatly influence club total weight.

Shaft Overall Flex, Shaft Bend Point, Shaft Weight: The majority of the OEM’s have a trial and error method for shaft matching while Mizuno have their own swing DNA shaft load system.

The message about custom fitting is getting through but if customers buy off the rack it is because they choose to do so.

[station2station]

[quote name='DaveMac' timestamp='1356195810' post='6104541']
I have been reading this thread with interest and while I do feel there are problems with the way golf clubs are currently sold and marketed (product volume and performance hype) I don't think the area of OEM custom fitting is the real issue.
To balance the argument I did a little research on how well 5 OEM's match upto Tom Wishon's 13 fitting specifications. You can see from the table below thatthey match up pretty well.
I realise that there can still be a gap in the rangeof options available and the quality of fitting provided, but that is the caseno matter where the fitting is obtained.
[b]Specifications / Manufacturer[/b] [b]Callaway[/b] [b]Mizuno[/b] [b]Ping[/b] [b]Taylormade[/b] [b]Titleist[/b] Loft Y Y Y Y Y Lie Y Y Y Y Y Face Angle * Y Y Y Length Y Y Y Y Y Swingweight * Total Weight * Y Y Y Y Y Shaft Overall Flex Y Y* Y Y Y Shaft Bend Point Y Y* Y Y Y Shaft Weight Y Y* Y Y Y Set Make-Up Y Y Y Y Y Grip Style Y Y Y Y Y Grip Size Y Y Y Y Y Clubhead Design Y Y Y Y Y

The table contains a few asterisks (*'s) which require expansion.

[b]Face angle:[/b] I have assumed that this fitting parameter is specific only to the driver and so only the OEM's who have adjustable or draw model drivers have been acknowledged as capable of meeting this requirement.
[b]Swingweight:[/b] None of the OEM's use swing weight as a fitting parameter but they do have the ability to change club swingweight within a modest range.

[b]Total Weight:[/b] Once again OEM's don't consider this as an independent fitting parameter but all OEM's have a wide range of shaft weights which greatly influence club total weight.

[b]Shaft Overall Flex, Shaft Bend Point, Shaft Weight:[/b] The majority of the OEM's have a trial and error method for shaft matching while Mizuno have their own swing DNA shaft load system.

The message about custom fitting is getting through but if customers buy off the rack it is because they choose to do so.
[/quote]

I firmly believe that as long as you team up with someone at the retailer with reasonable experience the major mfgs can provide all the custom order options you could ever need. Finding that person at retailer A might take some investigation, BUT - if you know anything about golf equipment you will know enough to determine if the person is qualified or full of BS - and then you work together.

Every single digit capper I've ever come across knows enough about custom options to figure out what they need. And the 15-25 cappers really don't need more than custom Loft/Lenght/Lie and then go get some lessons. Anyone at the retailer can help you with L/L/L.

I've had bad experiences with independent custom fitters and their belief systems. Their obsession with the minutia sends you down a rathole of fixing things that aren't broken or details that are as important to your game as the as the amount of dust in the air at the course.

[WT Door]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356197914' post='6104627']
I firmly believe that as long as you team up with someone at the retailer with reasonable experience the major mfgs can provide all the custom order options you could ever need. Finding that person at retailer A might take some investigation, BUT - if you know anything about golf equipment you will know enough to determine if the person is qualified or full of BS - and then you work together.

Every single digit capper I've ever come across knows enough about custom options to figure out what they need. And the 15-25 cappers really don't need more than custom Loft/Lenght/Lie and then go get some lessons. Anyone at the retailer can help you with L/L/L.
[/quote]

Amen.

[myspinonit]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356197914' post='6104627']
[quote name='DaveMac' timestamp='1356195810' post='6104541']
The message about custom fitting is getting through but if customers buy off the rack it is because they choose to do so.
[/quote]

I firmly believe that as long as you team up with someone at the retailer with reasonable experience the major mfgs can provide all the custom order options you could ever need. Finding that person at retailer A might take some investigation, BUT - if you know anything about golf equipment you will know enough to determine if the person is qualified or full of BS - and then you work together.

Every single digit capper I've ever come across knows enough about custom options to figure out what they need. And the 15-25 cappers really don't need more than custom Loft/Lenght/Lie and then go get some lessons. Anyone at the retailer can help you with L/L/L.

I've had bad experiences with independent custom fitters and their belief systems. Their obsession with the minutia sends you down a rathole of fixing things that aren't broken or details that are as important to your game as the as the amount of dust in the air at the course.
[/quote]

You both make good points. However...

I'm the 15-25 capper. I've never had someone in a big box store offer to check lie, loft, length and adjust something off the rack I was interested in buying. Or offer a custom option from the OEM. Or seem to be particularly interested in looking for a loft or flex of a particular club I wanted to try that was not in stock, other than [u]maybe[/u] seeing if another store of their chain in the area had it.

One of the Golfwrxers in Canada told me he recently went to that big box chain to see about trying or getting a specific TEE club. Guess what? They no longer have an account with TEE so no can (would) do it.

I'm sure you have known or seen people go into the big box and say "sell me your best (or most forgiving) driver"...and walk out with it 10 minutes later. Marvelling to his buddies how far he hits that 46" driver. And he probably does- once out of three or four times straight.

I understand it's caveat emptor. And I understand that the consumer should be doing research. But many average joe's don't have the time, the knowledge olr interest to learn a lot about swingweight, loft etc. They also place trust in the supposed expert selling them the product.

I started being a regular reader and participant on Golfwrx because I had been given some poor advice (or none) for suitable clubs in the past. And needed to do research for some shaft tweaking and driver length (then SW) adjustments after a real custom fitting last year. I don't know any of my friends who have that interest. Maybe they are in the right clubs for them, or maybe it doesn't matter to them.

But I will tell you that it is thoroughly unlikely that any of them had Lie Loft or Length checked for any club they have bought. Unless their experience was different than the other big box transactions I've witnessed.

I'm going to agree with you also that lessons rather than equipment changes are probably the most beneficial for my cap range. But you need have the equipment that is generally the right weight length and lie and flex to help you hit the centre of the face most of the time. I also agree those lessons can adjust what the club/shaft requirements are over time.

Just my additional 2 cents that the average joe mid to high handicap who probably is in the most need to be provided proper assistance and options in LLL and shaft flex when he goes shopping isn't likely to get it.

I'm not trying to beat this last point to death, but as mukster and I have tried to point out, sometimes evern those wanting to pursue custom options have difficulty sourcing a local clubmaker or fitter with whom they are comfortable to get the appropriate options.

[farmer]

I agree with Peppers questions about only 1 in 8 fitting the OTR clubs. Maybe 1 in 8 is accurate as far as being an exact fit, but I bet something like 5 or 6 out of eight are pretty darn close. Really, does one degree up or down make a huge difference? Or being an exact fit for a grip 1/32 off stock? I agree with Station that you could wander off into minutia that might be exact, but not relevant.

[gvogel]

[quote name='Black Label Johnny' timestamp='1356048555' post='6098049']
That's why everyone should get irons from Scratch.
[/quote]

Golf is such an interesting game because, over time and through trial and error, we as players learn how to fit ourselves.

The perfect wrong way is to go to a big box store and hit clubs inside.

The right way is to try as much as possible outside, and then see if it actually works on the course. For example, when featherweight irons came on the scene, I could hit them fine on the range after working into a decent swing tempo. But they were way too hard to sync on the course. That was a learning experience.

A store that is situated on an outdoor range has advantages over one that doesn't, especially if it has a broad selection of shafts and knowledgeable sales persons.

Remember that fitting is part art, part science.

[MtlJeff]

I never know what side to take in these arguments. On the one hand i [i]hate [/i]the current marketing strategies employed by most of the top golf companies, and probably 20% of my posts on this side are sarcastic comments in threads here on that topic. Marketing by the top OEMs and one in particular (no need to name names here) i believe is largely based on misinformation/misdirection and packaged to the masses as the greatest thing that will completely re-invent your golf game. There are a lot of clever ways to get around outright lying to people, and that's why they employ several highly paid executives to come up with strategies designed to tell you the club that isn't too different from the one a year ago is suddenly much longer and straighter then it's predecessor. They tell you this despite enormous evidence at the highest levels that distance and accuracy hasn't changed all that much in years. They use new terms, new slots, new weight placements so that early adopters can say "the slot [i]really [/i]makes a difference people! it's [i]not [/i]just marketing hype!", and then 3 months later that same guy is hitting the same drives he always has and looking for the next thing. We're conditioned to do this because 80% of consumers are complete slaves to marketing even though they don't realize it. You don't need to look hard in any thread here to see that

But when does consumer responsibility kick in? As Thrillhouse pointed out there are tons of options to get fit, the same manufacturers that lie to you, also offer a lot of clubs that you actually can customize with the shafts you want or the loft/lie angles. Heads are adjustable now too which has been fantastic for me because i can close the faces on clubs i hit well which i couldn't do before. There are still plenty of small companies out there despite the dominance of the big guys. You don't need to look further then my own bag to see Xcaliber shafts for example, which are cost competitive and perform. There are tons of options out there if you really want to look and put effort into it

This is the same debate as smoking, or fast food advertising that have been had over the years. If there is evidence that something is wrong for you and you choose to be swayed by marketing. How bad should people feel for you? My Darwinian side always kicks in here

[station2station]

[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356208150' post='6105109']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356197914' post='6104627']
[quote name='DaveMac' timestamp='1356195810' post='6104541']
The message about custom fitting is getting through but if customers buy off the rack it is because they choose to do so.
[/quote]

I firmly believe that as long as you team up with someone at the retailer with reasonable experience the major mfgs can provide all the custom order options you could ever need. Finding that person at retailer A might take some investigation, BUT - if you know anything about golf equipment you will know enough to determine if the person is qualified or full of BS - and then you work together.

Every single digit capper I've ever come across knows enough about custom options to figure out what they need. And the 15-25 cappers really don't need more than custom Loft/Lenght/Lie and then go get some lessons. Anyone at the retailer can help you with L/L/L.

I've had bad experiences with independent custom fitters and their belief systems. Their obsession with the minutia sends you down a rathole of fixing things that aren't broken or details that are as important to your game as the as the amount of dust in the air at the course.
[/quote]

You both make good points. However...

I'm the 15-25 capper. I've never had someone in a big box store offer to check lie, loft, length and adjust something off the rack I was interested in buying. Or offer a custom option from the OEM. Or seem to be particularly interested in looking for a loft or flex of a particular club I wanted to try that was not in stock, other than [u]maybe[/u] seeing if another store of their chain in the area had it.
[/quote]

You didn't ask to be checked? At some point there is a degree of consumer responsibility. You seem to know about these attributes. (no offense to you - just saying). I know you are using yourself as an example.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, Joe 20 capper goes to the Independent boutique fitter for irons and leaves $1500 poorer after being steered into one of the 3 available heads the fitter carries, preached to about by MOI matching, and fooled into shaft "Pure'ing".

I think PING has it right - solid but non-excessive custom fitting at the retail level. Color codes and sample demo shaft lengths. Plenty of options for Joe 20-cap and actually plenty for me at 4hc.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='mukster' timestamp='1356194005' post='6104459']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356142197' post='6102879']
[quote name='mukster' timestamp='1356137814' post='6102645']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356026197' post='6096297']
I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.
[/quote]

I for one live in the Vancouver area and I spoke briefly to myspinonit via PM regarding club fitting in this area a while ago. I will go on record as saying that there is no good club fitting readily available. The only fitters that are available will fit what they sell. If I want Titleist, there is a guy. If I want Cally or KZG, there are guys(dunno if the KZG guy is still in business).The local Golf Town fitting is questionable, I have heard a couple of horror stories, and have a few of my own.

So as far as I am concerned, if you are a new golfer wanting to get into the game, unless you play Cally, KZG, Titleist, or you are prepared to gamble at the local Golf Town, it is going to be tough. I want my eclectic golf bag to be fit for me, I would love to try various different shaft options, but no go. So I guess as far as fitting is concerned, unless I want to play a select few brands, in reality there is no club fitting available to me. I appreciate and agree with what Tom has written. However, it is not always that simple, and Google, despite being easy to use, does not always offer satisfactory answers. Try and Google cheap, hot, good looking hookers, for example.

If anyone is aware of a good club fitter in this area that fits any/all brand(s), by all means send me the name, for I have been unable to find that person.
[/quote]

Which proves my point, there are many available, you might not like them, but they are available.
[/quote]

I wasn't aware this was about you proving a point, Thrill. I was indicating the harsh reality of wanting to get fit properly out here in the Vancouver area and the fact that I cannot find anyone to do it for me. Just because there are fitters that show up on a Google search does not mean that it will in any way be of value to a golfer wanting to get fit in real life. Anyway, you have found club fitters in Vancouver, so I guess all of us should be happy out here, being schooled in Google 'n all, despite the fact that the results don't really help any of us
Back to the topic at hand, didn't mean to detract from the OPs post.
[/quote]

I don't understand why you feel the need to be so abrasive about this. There are plenty of fitters available in your area, but you don't like them because they don't offer enough brands for your liking. Duly noted.

I thought people in BC were supposed to be laid back and friendly. Guess you're proving that's not the case.

[jaskanski]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356211654' post='6105261']

I thought people in BC were supposed to be laid back and friendly. Guess you're proving that's not the case.
[/quote]

More like up tight and picky. Which further goes to prove the point of people not willing to venture out of their comfort zone to find a decent fitting solution to the equipment that is the most suitable. In an ideal world, Joe Kwok would be airlifted into your home course with every conceivable head and shaft combo for you to try. But in the real world, that's not really the case - hence you have to make a bit of an effort.
Besides, even if JK was on hand to provide his services at the drop of a hat, somebody would probably complain that they couldn't make it on the weekend and could only find time on a wednesday containing a full moon between the hours 11:32 and 12:45. As long as it's not raining. And nothing is on TV.

[myspinonit]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356210880' post='6105229']

You didn't ask to be checked? You seem to know about these attributes. (no offense - just saying). I know you are using yourself as an example.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, Joe 20 capper goes to the Independent boutique fitter for irons and leaves $1500 poorer after being steered into one of the 3 available heads the fitter carries, preached to about by MOI matching, and fooled into shaft "Pure'ing".

I think PING has it right - solid but non-excessive custom fitting at the retail level. Color codes and sample demo shaft lengths.
[/quote]

Also very good points.

No offence taken. I should have added to my own post that when I had purchased clubs before, I was that average joe trusting guy. I didn't even know to consider those attributes to any degree or to have them checked.

My game was interrupted for 15 years, and I started back into the new world of graphite shafts less than five years ago when I retired. Thinking I might play just once or twice a month (wrong!!), knowing nada about today's clubs. Thought I was going to get some good advice and walked out with a full set of Adams. That happened more than once with various replacement pieces as my game re-evolved.

Strange, as I am generally a thorough researcher for any type of product I will buy.

I then became the second guy in your post. Wish it had only been $1500. So yeah, this whole thread is very close to home.

But I got introduced in that "boutique fitting" to mostly suitable clubs in several varied makes, and the Aerotech shafts fixed my arthritis pain, that was job 1 getting that advice.

I've been on Golfwrx since that fitting and now I research first!!

[enduro]

The fact that there is an abundance of choice and that clubs can be bought cheaply and conveniently has been nothing but beneficial to golf. A scenario where golfers would only buy clubs through a clubmaker is unrealistic and unneccesary for so many reasons.

1. Where are all the qualified clubmakers going to come from? There are very few as it is with the craftsmanship and swing knowledge necessary for the the precision of fittings mentioned.
2. How many people would even start golfing if they had to spend 1 or 2 hours consulting and another week or more to get the clubs versus walking into a store .
3. What additional fitting options are there that aren't already be adequately covered by any number of decent OEMs already?
4. Is the degree of fitting even necessary or beneficial for most golfers. Given that grip size, shaft feel, head shape preference are all highly subjective anyways ,what more can be added if the basic fitting parameters are met.

[mukster]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356211654' post='6105261']
[quote name='mukster' timestamp='1356194005' post='6104459']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356142197' post='6102879']
[quote name='mukster' timestamp='1356137814' post='6102645']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356026197' post='6096297']
I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.
[/quote]

I for one live in the Vancouver area and I spoke briefly to myspinonit via PM regarding club fitting in this area a while ago. I will go on record as saying that there is no good club fitting readily available. The only fitters that are available will fit what they sell. If I want Titleist, there is a guy. If I want Cally or KZG, there are guys(dunno if the KZG guy is still in business).The local Golf Town fitting is questionable, I have heard a couple of horror stories, and have a few of my own.

So as far as I am concerned, if you are a new golfer wanting to get into the game, unless you play Cally, KZG, Titleist, or you are prepared to gamble at the local Golf Town, it is going to be tough. I want my eclectic golf bag to be fit for me, I would love to try various different shaft options, but no go. So I guess as far as fitting is concerned, unless I want to play a select few brands, in reality there is no club fitting available to me. I appreciate and agree with what Tom has written. However, it is not always that simple, and Google, despite being easy to use, does not always offer satisfactory answers. Try and Google cheap, hot, good looking hookers, for example.

[b]If anyone is aware of a [u]good [/u]club fitter in this area that fits any/all brand(s), by all means send me the name, for I have been unable to find that person.[/b]
[/quote]

Which proves my point, there are many available, you might not like them, but they are available.
[/quote]

I wasn't aware this was about you proving a point, Thrill. I was indicating the harsh reality of wanting to get fit properly out here in the Vancouver area and the fact that I cannot find anyone to do it for me. Just because there are fitters that show up on a Google search does not mean that it will in any way be of value to a golfer wanting to get fit in real life. Anyway, you have found club fitters in Vancouver, so I guess all of us should be happy out here, being schooled in Google 'n all, despite the fact that the results don't really help any of us
Back to the topic at hand, didn't mean to detract from the OPs post.
[/quote]

I don't understand why you feel the need to be so abrasive about this. There are plenty of fitters available in your area, but you don't like them because they don't offer enough brands for your liking. Duly noted.

I thought people in BC were supposed to be laid back and friendly. Guess you're proving that's not the case.
[/quote]

Lol, I am pretty laid back and friendly. I am sorry you perceived the reply to be abrasive, that definitely was not the case, but maybe you should read your last reply, that came off a bit rough and scratchy . I don't believe you read my answer properly. Just because an internet search provides a list of clubfitters, it does not mean that they offer good club fitting or appropriate fitting for me. All I was saying is that if anyone has the name of a good club fitter, please inform me of that person. I would like to go see someone that will fit me despite what brand I choose to play. I have highlighted that in case you missed it. Us Wet Coasters read the posts of people doing this with great envy on a regular basis. It would be great to be able to have such a service available to us.
Anyhow, I am not going to get involved in an internet p****ng contest about this, wishing you well out East.

[Thrillhouse]

@ Mukster

Start a thread here that asks for a fitting in vancouver and say that you want to get all your existing gear reshafted and fit for you. You'll find you have several options, youll pay $250 for a full fitting, and drop about $1500 on new shafts and grips and walk away happy as a clam.

Done.

[jmvargas]

i have been following this thread from the beginning and here are my conclusions:

1) if you have the means and desire for custom-fiited clubs and honestly feel that your golfing ability will benefit from it...go for it!!

2) if not but you still want to have well-fitting clubs and you feel you know what you want you can take the route of getting the closest off the rack clubs to your specs and tweak it from there---i took that route..

custom-fitted clubs do not guarrantee any improvement but at the very least it will give you some confidence that it is not the arrow anymore but perhaps it's the indian..

custom-fitting, however, is not recommended until your abiilty deserves it..

...but whatever route you choose i hope you enjoy it!!!

PS..i would also be curious to know if anyone here has undergone a fitting session with more than one custom clubmaker--a 2nd opinion so to speak-- and what the results were..

[Petethreeput]

I very much respect Mr. Wishon, and would simply add this is not just a golf issue. It is a new business model for most everyone.

The idea is as follows. These corporations assume the consumer more information than they have ever had before (and this is most certainly true), ie internet search, shopping online for deals, etc then ask them to do the shopping.
Examples, when I was a kid, my family had a travel agent they trusted. Now I log onto Kayak and search for the best deal.
I used to ask about stereo equipment, now I know what I want when I walk in.
Same thing today in golf. Think about this forum... which is best for my SS, Hgt, Wgt, etc. By the time a golfwrx'er gets to the store they have as much information as they feel they need, and if the sales person says something contrary, then the shopper is in a quandary, so either the salesman is genius or ignoramus.

While I am confident Mr. Wishon would be a much fitter than my local pro, my pro takes the time to fit me, and then sells me clubs. Not too much more expensive than if I bought them off the rack. The question for me is, when does supposed knowledge of the customer actually do a disservice to those who have spent their lives in the business? And is the focus on equipment more prevalent because the customer already knows what they want.

This is one reason why price has become the selling point. With an absence of value, which would include expertise in products (which the consumer already feels they have), price is the only concern. So in reality, we have seen the enemy, and it is us.

[bluedot]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

If you have thrown $20 in the pot for the weekend points/skins game, the difference between 81 and 84 could be worth a LOT of money, especially if the three stroke difference is due to a couple of birdies. If you are playing in a club tournament, the difference between 81 and 84 could mean winning your flight vs. not being a contender. To me, those ARE qualitative.

But I agree with you to this extent; if a golfer simply doesn't care what they shoot, then getting properly fit equipment isn't important.

[bluedot]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356197914' post='6104627']
[quote name='DaveMac' timestamp='1356195810' post='6104541']
I have been reading this thread with interest and while I do feel there are problems with the way golf clubs are currently sold and marketed (product volume and performance hype) I don't think the area of OEM custom fitting is the real issue.
To balance the argument I did a little research on how well 5 OEM's match upto Tom Wishon's 13 fitting specifications. You can see from the table below thatthey match up pretty well.
I realise that there can still be a gap in the rangeof options available and the quality of fitting provided, but that is the caseno matter where the fitting is obtained.
[b]Specifications / Manufacturer[/b] [b]Callaway[/b] [b]Mizuno[/b] [b]Ping[/b] [b]Taylormade[/b] [b]Titleist[/b] Loft Y Y Y Y Y Lie Y Y Y Y Y Face Angle * Y Y Y Length Y Y Y Y Y Swingweight * Total Weight * Y Y Y Y Y Shaft Overall Flex Y Y* Y Y Y Shaft Bend Point Y Y* Y Y Y Shaft Weight Y Y* Y Y Y Set Make-Up Y Y Y Y Y Grip Style Y Y Y Y Y Grip Size Y Y Y Y Y Clubhead Design Y Y Y Y Y

The table contains a few asterisks (*'s) which require expansion.

[b]Face angle:[/b] I have assumed that this fitting parameter is specific only to the driver and so only the OEM's who have adjustable or draw model drivers have been acknowledged as capable of meeting this requirement.
[b]Swingweight:[/b] None of the OEM's use swing weight as a fitting parameter but they do have the ability to change club swingweight within a modest range.

[b]Total Weight:[/b] Once again OEM's don't consider this as an independent fitting parameter but all OEM's have a wide range of shaft weights which greatly influence club total weight.

[b]Shaft Overall Flex, Shaft Bend Point, Shaft Weight:[/b] The majority of the OEM's have a trial and error method for shaft matching while Mizuno have their own swing DNA shaft load system.

The message about custom fitting is getting through but if customers buy off the rack it is because they choose to do so.
[/quote]

I firmly believe that as long as you team up with someone at the retailer with reasonable experience the major mfgs can provide all the custom order options you could ever need. Finding that person at retailer A might take some investigation, BUT - if you know anything about golf equipment you will know enough to determine if the person is qualified or full of BS - and then you work together.

Every single digit capper I've ever come across knows enough about custom options to figure out what they need. And the 15-25 cappers really don't need more than custom Loft/Lenght/Lie and then go get some lessons. Anyone at the retailer can help you with L/L/L.

I've had bad experiences with independent custom fitters and their belief systems. Their obsession with the minutia sends you down a rathole of fixing things that aren't broken or details that are as important to your game as the as the amount of dust in the air at the course.
[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more about "single digit cappers" and their ability to figure out their needs. I see excellent golfers using the wrong equipment all the time who are too stubborn to let a fitter help them.

I play with a couple of buddies every weekend who are good enough to overcome their use of the wrong equipment. One is 6-5 with a ton of lag and a swingspeed around 115; he uses standard lie blades and has a stock S shaft in his driver. He hits it all over the place, but is so good inside 100 yds. that he scores anyway. The other is using a $300 driver shaft that is probably the hottest shaft on the market right now; he bought it because he has seen others use it successfully, but his results are NOT what they were previously.

Tom Wishon has made the point many, many times that low handicap golfers are good enough to overcome improper equipment, and that they often do exactly that. It is actually mid and high handicappers who would benefit the most from fittings, because they lack the ability to manufacture swings that compensate.

[jmvargas]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356264702' post='6107357']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356193580' post='6104437']
I know that new equipment will make zero difference in how I play. Conceivably a perfectly fitted set could save me a couple strokes. At most. Some if us just like trying a new club every few months.

When your handicap is in the double digits you are just quibbling over details if you spend a couple thousand dollars trying to turn that 14.8 into an 11.6 or whatever. The experiences of shooting 81 is not qualitatively different tgan shooting 84.
[/quote]

If you have thrown $20 in the pot for the weekend points/skins game, the difference between 81 and 84 could be worth a LOT of money, especially if the three stroke difference is due to a couple of birdies. If you are playing in a club tournament, the difference between 81 and 84 could mean winning your flight vs. not being a contender. To me, those ARE qualitative.

But I agree with you to this extent; if a golfer simply doesn't care what they shoot, then getting properly fit equipment isn't important.
[/quote]


....in my experience the difference between an 81 and an 84 will always be found in the short game and NOT the equipment...

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Do you guys know of a lot of 14 handicappers who play in unhandicapped comps? Scratch tournaments/dogfights or straight-up matches?

Because if you playing with handicaps, six weeks after our hypothetical improvement of three strokes your net scores will be exactly the sam as they were before the change.

Which is my whole point. Unless you're a competitive player in scratch events, meaning you routinely shoot around or under par, then dinky little improvements of a couple strokes are purely transient. Sure it would be great to suddenly be shooting 81's and 82's when six months ago you were struggling to shoot 84 but it hasn't really changed anything except a number.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Most people would love to see a slightly lower number by their name on the handicap computer. And if they really thing fitted clubs will do it, that's a no-brainer. But it isn't like having a driver that's too long and too little loft and irons that a couple degrees upright and with too heavy shafts is what's standing between a mediocre player and becoming a highly skilled golfer.

[SPY ZINGER]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356268789' post='6107469']
Do you guys know of a lot of 14 handicappers who play in unhandicapped comps? Scratch tournaments/dogfights or straight-up matches?

Because if you playing with handicaps, six weeks after our hypothetical improvement of three strokes your net scores will be exactly the sam as they were before the change.

Which is my whole point. Unless you're a competitive player in scratch events, meaning you routinely shoot around or under par, then dinky little improvements of a couple strokes are purely transient. Sure it would be great to suddenly be shooting 81's and 82's when six months ago you were struggling to shoot 84 but it hasn't really changed anything except a number.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Most people would love to see a slightly lower number by their name on the handicap computer. And if they really thing fitted clubs will do it, that's a no-brainer. But it isn't like having a driver that's too long and too little loft and irons that a couple degrees upright and with too heavy shafts is what's standing between a mediocre player and becoming a highly skilled golfer.
[/quote]
Well said

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

By way of both recapitulating what Tom Wishon has said and interpreting it a bit differently...

It doesn't have to be about scores. The one thing that can be an immediately noticeable improvement that changes the entire experience of golf is when a golfer fights some basic tendency or inability to make even an adequate swing.

For myself it is generally very frustrating not to be able to bring a driver back squarely to the ball. When I use a low-lofted (10.5 is too low for my needs), too long (i.e. 46" or so) and too heavy driver it is physically a wrestling match to do anything but weakly cut across the ball and strike it a glancing, descending blow. This tires me out over course of a round and causes an endless succession of tops, fat shots and weak push-fades. It really just destroys all the fun in the game when every tee shot is a struggle like that.

I can imagine other players having similarly game-ruining issues with iron shots or the wedge game or maybe even putting. Even if the net result is only a loss of a few strokes (in my case, those 170-yard rollers are still playable and don't cause penalty strokes or anything) it feels more like work than a game. When I use a driver that I can actually swing, my scores improve by maybe 5 strokes but the game because 10x more enjoyable.

But here's my different interpretation. Someone far lower on the food chain, fitting-wise, than Tom Wishon can "fit" me into a better club for use off the tee. Even my teaching-pro buddy can point out that teeing off with a 3-wood or buying a lightweight 12-degree driver then chopping a couple inches off the shaft will get me 90% of the way toward solving my particular problem. Once I do that, the further gains from a club that fits me to a "T" (so to speak) is pretty marginal.

So back to Tom's original point. The problem with the OEM's and the Edwin Watts/Golf Galaxy/Dicks way of sourcing clubs for high handicapper is not that their 10-minute launch monitor session is half-hearted, approximate and maybe even incorrectly interpreted. Yeah, that's unfortunate. The problem is for a lot of golfers they don't offer any product that is even approximately in the ballpark of what is needed. Tom Wishon could "fit" me over the phone in 3 minutes for a driver that works better than anything my local Golf Headquarters could possibly sell me. The broad strokes are not brain surgery, just applying common sense to real world issues.

That is, for me, the frustrating thing about the current industry. I know certain players really enjoy getting A Real Fitting of a whole set of clubs. For my part I'll settle for a set that is Not Completely Idiotic yet even that is hard to find among OEM offerings nowadays. And I'm not even a woman or a 75-year-old senior man or a person with some serious physical limitations (other than my crappy golf swing). I ought to be easy pickings.

[1puttwoods]

Unfortunatly most true "club Builders" I know are no longer in business. I actually have a world renowned club maker currently working as my fitter. He had to close his shop due to not enough sales. The Golfwrx community represents about one hundreth of 1% of the golfing population or even less. The problem I see is that nobody wants to buy equipment which no one has ever heard of, while paying 2-3 times what an average set of OEM clubs sells for. Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that, making their $900 set of clubs now a close to $2000. I can see competitive players maybe doing that but the average player??? No way!!!

[bluedot]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356268789' post='6107469']
Do you guys know of a lot of 14 handicappers who play in unhandicapped comps? Scratch tournaments/dogfights or straight-up matches?

Because if you playing with handicaps, six weeks after our hypothetical improvement of three strokes your net scores will be exactly the sam as they were before the change.

Which is my whole point. Unless you're a competitive player in scratch events, meaning you routinely shoot around or under par, then dinky little improvements of a couple strokes are purely transient. Sure it would be great to suddenly be shooting 81's and 82's when six months ago you were struggling to shoot 84 but it hasn't really changed anything except a number.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Most people would love to see a slightly lower number by their name on the handicap computer. And if they really thing fitted clubs will do it, that's a no-brainer. But it isn't like having a driver that's too long and too little loft and irons that a couple degrees upright and with too heavy shafts is what's standing between a mediocre player and becoming a highly skilled golfer.
[/quote]

I know lots of 14's who play in unhandicapped comps! Almost every club in America has a points game and a skins game each weekend and many weekdays. Points games aren't handicapped, and gross skins aren't either.

Of course your net scores will be the same 20 rounds later; that's the whole point of the handicap system. BUT most points games aren't based on handicaps except the first time you play; after that, the points adjust based on performance. And skins games are usually both gross AND net. Almost no club games are net stroke play events, in fact, except club championships; those are generally flighted anyway, and then the difference between 84 and 81 becomes a big deal again.

The importance of this distinction is that the 84 to 81 difference could be worth 3 to 6 points on a given day regardless of your handicap. If one or more of those strokes changed a par to a birdie (gross and/or net) skins could be won, regardless of handicap. There have many, many days at my club where three more points would have won me money, or three less points would have cost me money, or another birdie or two would have been big.

Look, it's ok if YOU don't care if you shoot 84 or 81. But to say that there is no "qualitative" difference is incorrect at best.