Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

[Breaker999]

Fitting has not caught up with the golf club selling business. I fit clubs myself through trial and error and through results on the course. This takes time and effort.

I don't go to a fitting center or the local fitter at the golf superstore b/c no one will know my swing and game better than me. That means I have to learn basic club making skills and utilize research abilities. Thankfully there is a wealth of information on the internet.

Technology, competition, demand, and the resulting lower prices of clubs has helped the average consumer like me learn more about clubs. I'm not in the golf industry and or any type of repair profession. I taught myself the game, so there's no knowledge base to work from. Experimenting with an array of equipment is how I'm able to figure out what suits me. I couldn't do this 20 years ago when golf clubs were not plenty and accessibility was limited.

People have to learn more about clubs and that is not necessarily the club manufacturer's job to teach it. The resources and materials are available. It's how much people want to know and invest.

[boston blackie]

I was fitted by a guy who was a Wishon system user, and listed on the Wishon website, when I got back into golf three seasons ago. In my opinion, i might just as well have opened his door, thrown a couple of hundred dollars in, and walked away.

For my money I got a few pages of statistics that may as well be trigonometry (which I failed). Maybe better communication would have helped who knows.

[secretmidam]

[quote name='boston blackie' timestamp='1356392436' post='6113437']
I was fitted by a guy who was a Wishon system user, and listed on the Wishon website when I got back into golf three seasons ago. In my opinion, i might just as well have opened his door, through a couple of hundred dollars in, and walked away.

For my money I got a few pages of statistics that may as well be trigonometry (which I failed). Maybe better communication would have helped who knows.
[/quote]
What made you feel lacking from the fitting experience. Spending a few hundred you should leave feeling you gained information but also with clubs fit to you.

[chuckyz2]

[quote name='smackygolf' timestamp='1356359839' post='6111411']
[quote name='1puttwoods' timestamp='1356281733' post='6108077']
Unfortunatly most true "club Builders" I know are no longer in business. I actually have a world renowned club maker currently working as my fitter. He had to close his shop due to not enough sales. The Golfwrx community represents about one hundreth of 1% of the golfing population or even less. The problem I see is that nobody wants to buy equipment which no one has ever heard of, while paying 2-3 times what an average set of OEM clubs sells for. Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that, making their $900 set of clubs now a close to $2000. I can see competitive players maybe doing that but the average player??? No way!!!
[/quote]

"Who is going to take their brand new Taylormade Rocketbladez irons and get them retro fitted with new shafts get them moi matched, frequency matched, spine them AND pay another $700+ for that,"

Hopefully, no one. Frequency matching, MOI matching, and spining are the $300 HDMI cables of the golf business. There is not a single person who can honestly show qualitative proof that ANY of that matters to a GREAT player, let alone a hack shooting 93.
[/quote]

I did. Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. It also also improved them on dispersion, distance, distance control and repeatable golf shots. The better shafts I tuned and installed bettered all those a little more. Itsnot a minimum gain. Its huge.

[station2station]

[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356396319' post='6113595']
Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. …. It's not a minimum gain. Its huge.
[/quote]

Huge? Spining your shafts made your irons better on a HUGE level? Interesting. Even some major manufacturers have called the concept "murky" at best.

If your game is THAT much better after the process in your estimation, that's all that matters.

[boston blackie]

[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356392913' post='6113455']
[quote name='boston blackie' timestamp='1356392436' post='6113437']
I was fitted by a guy who was a Wishon system user, and listed on the Wishon website when I got back into golf three seasons ago. In my opinion, i might just as well have opened his door, through a couple of hundred dollars in, and walked away.

For my money I got a few pages of statistics that may as well be trigonometry (which I failed). Maybe better communication would have helped who knows.
[/quote]
What made you feel lacking from the fitting experience. Spending a few hundred you should leave feeling you gained information but also with clubs fit to you.
[/quote]

That didn't happen.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356367598' post='6111845']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356366629' post='6111781']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356350488' post='6111079']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356326120' post='6110623']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.
[/quote]
Sell you up? Thanks for your informed and fact based answer. It was an actual question that I asked.
[/quote]

It's statement that infers that indy custom club builders have belief systems that rely heavily on generating revenue thru the minutia of voodoo - "options" that they strongly upsell that doesn't really affect anything real in your golf game. I used shaft puring as an example. There are many. To use the phrase that Smackygolf used above, "this is the $300 HDMI cable of the industry,"

If you want honest answers it's best not to start calling people "bud" on here. It's derogatory.
[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be derogatory.

How is shaft pureing not helpful? (which I believe SST Pureing isn't voodoo). I just felt your statement on pureing was somewhat incorrect. What other options do you feel club builders try and upswell to generate revenue. That's an honest question.
[/quote]

SST Pureing is, IMO, comparable to magnetic bracelets commonly worn on tour. Aside from no scientific proof for either, we get promotional marketing material. Yet, a great many pros wear those bracelets, and some have shafts Pured, if not for any reason, but superstition, maybe hope, and or they get both for nothing.

After hitting a PX 6.0 shaft in a test head, I had it SST pured, opted for distance vs control and had it reinstalled. There was no noticeable difference. IMO, with better shafts, manufacturing materials, techniques and tolerances, by design pure the shaft.

[Super Tuna]

[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356358835' post='6111353']
Blue, do you feel a fitter should give swing suggestions, or leave that to a PGA Teaching Professional?

Thanks!
[/quote]

Not Blue, but my take and the guy I help out is that we're not teaching pro's. We fit the swing you have, not the one you want. If you want to change something in your swing, we're quite happy to recommend a number of pro's that might be able to help out (stressing to research them yourselves so you know what you'll get from them) and help you later. Some fitters are also PGA teaching pro's though and sometimes you'll get both sides of it during a fitting/lesson.

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356366629' post='6111781']
It's general statement that infers that indy custom club builders have belief systems that rely heavily on generating revenue thru the minutia of voodoo - "options" that they strongly upsell that doesn't really affect anything real in your golf game. I used shaft puring as an example. There are many. To use the phrase that Smackygolf used above, "this is the $300 HDMI cable of the industry,"

I've never been to an Indy fitter whose belief system didn't threaten to destroy my bag. One guy wanted to remove my DG Tour Issue shafts because they were taper tip and he said "Nobody on tour uses taper tip - the only reason they exist is for ease at the point of manufacturing - all tour players bore their hoses parallel and tip their shafts to get it just right. I'll bore out your Mizuno heads - they'll be ready next week". WOAH WOAH wait a minute. I just came to you for help with tweaking my woods.

Another fitter I went to had a strong belief that every amateur golfer plays shafts that are too stiff in their irons - and he softens their flex FCM dramatically- but doesn't like to tell them the new frequency he builds because it would get in their head. Suffice it to say at the time I was playing X100 SSx1 and he wanted gave me a demo club to try over the weekend that was 4.0. Didn't fit me at all and his response? "You're just so used to your X100 that you need to retrain yourself on how you release the club." ADIOS!
[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that many independant shops have their own idea's about how to do things. That being said, don't tarr us all with the same brush. I understand you have had a couple bad experiences but that doesn't mean all of us have weird idea's or want to do crazy things to your clubs.
Maybe it's the type of business model though. The shop I help out looks at it more like he's a consultant. You pay for his time, whether that's fitting, suggestions or club work rather then charge by the task like most shops.

[Myherobobhope]

This whole conversation has been fascinating... it's amazing that there isn't a true scientific way to measure the improvement given from a certain club... I guess it goes to show when you add the human element into something, it becomes MUCH harder to measure.

Personally, I think a proper fitting with a good builder is an awesome idea. it allows you to get the best set possible for your swing.

The problems come with the costs and hassles around a custom fitting.

1. There is no gaurantee the off the rack clubs don't "work" for you... or that any improvements will be immediately noticeable. The more athletic a person is, the easier a time they have making new clubs work. I had an interesting time playing with borrowed clubs over the weekend... the irons were great, even at a standard build, but I could not control the driver to save my life... way to light for my swing. A custom fit driver would have been ideal, a heavier driver would have been fine.
2. Custom club fitting is expensive, and there is no great option for it. You can't get an OEM club custom fit without paying through the nose, and if you go to a specialty custom fitter, it's still expensive and your choices are limited. I want to play Wishon clubs, so it's not much of a problem for me... but that brings up the last major problem
3. Good clubfitters are hard to find. Since results aren't easily measured, snake oil salesmen compete with actual, legitimate clubbuilders... They also have to spend alot of time building the clubs, which makes the process more expensive and takes away the instant joy of buying clubs and going out and hitting them.

I don't think everyone needs to get custom fitted and I think the benefits of a custom fitting vary across the board... I also don't think we have a sophisticated enough tracking system to determine the benefits of club fitting. There are too many variables in a round of golf to say "hey, I hit 3 less shots because I was in custom fit clubs".

Golf is a mental game more than anything. Good enough equipment will work 99% of the time... the question becomes what is the 1% worth to you?

In my experience, I can get a custom set of Wishon cast irons built for ~$50 a club... This is at the local clubfitter, who I'm not sure how I feel about.

The shop I WANT to go to, the price jumps up to something like $125 a club, but they are forged clubs... I'm sure I could get the cast for 90-100 a club.

How much difference there is between the 2 clubfitters, I have no idea. How much they will improve my game, I have no idea... I want to go just to try it. I don't think it will make me a touring pro. I do think it will improve my enjoyment of the game, if not the score. That is worth the cost to me. It might not be worth the cost to others...

It's not a black and white issue. It's a matter of whether you have the money and desire to get fit, and can find the right person to fit you... Hell, I feel the same way about suits. If I ever manage to get back into shape, I'm getting a custom suit built for ~$800. I'm not sure it will look better or feel better, but it's my reward for getting into shape. I could walk into a department store and get a suit for $500 dollars (with free tailoring) that would fit almost as well and have no noticeable difference to an outside party. The difference in price is worth it to me...

[chuckyz2]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356396747' post='6113615']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356396319' post='6113595']
Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. …. It's not a minimum gain. Its huge.
[/quote]

Huge? Spining your shafts made your irons better on a HUGE level? Interesting. Even some major manufacturers have called the concept "murky" at best.

If your game is THAT much better after the process in your estimation, that's all that matters.
[/quote]

Every single pro does it. I can tell if I am hitting an aligned shaft. Out of my new RBZ's I knew the 8 was the only one that was close and tuning proved it.

I got the same results from previous sets and the same feedback from others that I helped. Murky? I think not.

One guy had a driver issue. Was a great golfer. Had a hard time finding the fairway consistantly. I did a driver for him and now he has a hard time missing the fairway and it lowered his handicap from a 5 to a 2. One shaft tweek! Murkey?

I changed the shaft in an old steelhead plus that was a junk club. I check the spine in the old shaft and it was off a lot. I had another that was a great club. The spine was on the money. Both clubs are money now. Murkey?

My hc is dropping like flys. This word murkey, it is a good word, no?

[station2station]

[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356636251' post='6124717']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356396747' post='6113615']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356396319' post='6113595']
Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. …. It's not a minimum gain. Its huge.
[/quote]

Huge? Spining your shafts made your irons better on a HUGE level? Interesting. Even some major manufacturers have called the concept "murky" at best.

If your game is THAT much better after the process in your estimation, that's all that matters.
[/quote]

Every single pro does it. I can tell if I am hitting an aligned shaft. Out of my new RBZ's I knew the 8 was the only one that was close and tuning proved it.
[/quote]

1. Not every single pro does it. I know 4 pros. 2 on the PGA Tour, 1 LPGA, and 1 Futures. 3 of them do not do it for certain - and the fourth one I have my doubts. But you were likely told that they do it by whoever sold you the service.

2. If I handed you a 2 identical clubs and one was spined, you may or may not know the difference. There is no guarantee and the fact that you state that that you can tell simply invalidates you.

3. Nobody's handicap drops "like flys" from the process of aligning the spine. The fact that you believe this invalidates your argument. Maybe you're just adapting to your BRAND NEW "Rocketbladez" irons. You know this takes time as well. Likely you are confusing your improvement with another issue.

[sblack5]

I honestly think that at the root of everything is that we all have different expectations of how a fitting should work.

I bought new irons this last summer and the fitting took 5 hours! I hit 3 different heads including the ones i was currently gaming on flightscope, outside on the range and also from various spots on course to get a real feel for what they would do for me. I got to also try out 4 different shafts in each head in all of those situations. I got to see both through LM data and outside ballflight what different combinations would do for me and that way i knew how they would better my play BEFORE I okayed the order. Based not only on my ss, but also my Aoa and transition tempo and overall timing of how i load and unload the club, we searched the wishon database of shafts for what matched my called for butt, mid, and tip stiffness as well as weight

I also got a spec sheet of each club listing the weight of each component, the final lengths, lofts, and lies of all the clubs, what frequency each shaft was, and the swingweights of all the sticks as they were moi matched.

I SPENT TIME educating myself on all the variables and after 6 weeks I was the proud owner of sticks that made me confident that the harder i worked the better i could be without worrying about equipment being the problem.
In my opinion this should be the standard practice.......my clubfitter wasnt a coach.....all he does is build clubs and tinker......awesome experience

[KDMullins]

[quote name='boston blackie' timestamp='1356392436' post='6113437']
I was fitted by a guy who was a Wishon system user, and listed on the Wishon website, when I got back into golf three seasons ago. In my opinion, i might just as well have opened his door, thrown a couple of hundred dollars in, and walked away.

For my money I got a few pages of statistics that may as well be trigonometry (which I failed). Maybe better communication would have helped who knows.
[/quote]

I know some of the guys on the lists Mr. Wishon provided, and likewise, I have not been impressed...at all. I've lost all confidence in "club fitters." Every time I've made any attempt to "get fitted" I get no more information that I could conclude myself if you just left me alone with the clubs and machine. Inevitably, I ask a very simple question about equipment, the availability of a shaft, etc., I get a blank stare, and then I spend the rest of the time trying to find a way to politely leave. I once went so far as to let one of these gentleman rebuild my irons. After keeping my clubs for what I considered an unreasonable amount of time, I got back clubs that were incorrect lengths, swingweight, and with shoddy ferrule work (a telltale sign of a lack of attention to detail IMO). Granted, I know more about clubs than most, but I don't like paying for somebody's "expertise" when they are little more than a computer reader and a glue man.

[Myherobobhope]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356658095' post='6126429']
[quote name='boston blackie' timestamp='1356392436' post='6113437']
I was fitted by a guy who was a Wishon system user, and listed on the Wishon website, when I got back into golf three seasons ago. In my opinion, i might just as well have opened his door, thrown a couple of hundred dollars in, and walked away.

For my money I got a few pages of statistics that may as well be trigonometry (which I failed). Maybe better communication would have helped who knows.
[/quote]

I know some of the guys on the lists Mr. Wishon provided, and likewise, I have not been impressed...at all. I've lost all confidence in "club fitters." Every time I've made any attempt to "get fitted" I get no more information that I could conclude myself if you just left me alone with the clubs and machine. Inevitably, I ask a very simple question about equipment, the availability of a shaft, etc., I get a blank stare, and then I spend the rest of the time trying to find a way to politely leave. I once went so far as to let one of these gentleman rebuild my irons. After keeping my clubs for what I considered an unreasonable amount of time, I got back clubs that were incorrect lengths, swingweight, and with shoddy ferrule work (a telltale sign of a lack of attention to detail IMO). Granted, I know more about clubs than most, but I don't like paying for somebody's "expertise" when they are little more than a computer reader and a glue man.
[/quote]

I haven't had him built me any clubs, but Conquest Custom Golf in Cincy seems like a good facility. I've spoken to the owner (Bob? Bill?) multiple times and come away impressed.

Granted, that is meaningless until he actually builds me a set, but I'm confident he will do a good job when I eventually give him my business.

[pipelinemow]

Tom, I have respected your knowledge and insight for alot of years, thank you, but no one ever wants to talk to fitters about the quality of customers
they see daily in the big box stores.I know I have work in one since 1996.Let me tell you there are alot more bad golfers then there are good golfers.
The bad golfer that has no athlectic ability, cannot make 2 swings in a row and has a limited budget to buy new clubs but wants to be custom fitted becuase some magazine article says everyone needs to be fitted to play better, and after spending hour or so with these customers explaining to them
that they would be better off spending their money on a golf swing improvment plan(lessons) instead of new clubs, they thank you, pay for thier 299.99
irons and off to the course with thier buddies they go, shoot 110 and b**** and complain that the fitter did a lousy job.

[sblack5]

^^^^ now that's total reality

[NPVWhiz]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356629373' post='6124109']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356367598' post='6111845']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356366629' post='6111781']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356350488' post='6111079']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356326120' post='6110623']
[quote name='jwclubbie' timestamp='1356321436' post='6110349']
Fooled into shaft pureing? Care to elablorate. Their is no fooling going on. Every builder and fitter has different beliefs, but to say fooled is a stretch bud.
[/quote]

Ok bud. Discount Tire will sell you up on siping your tires too.
[/quote]
Sell you up? Thanks for your informed and fact based answer. It was an actual question that I asked.
[/quote]

It's statement that infers that indy custom club builders have belief systems that rely heavily on generating revenue thru the minutia of voodoo - "options" that they strongly upsell that doesn't really affect anything real in your golf game. I used shaft puring as an example. There are many. To use the phrase that Smackygolf used above, "this is the $300 HDMI cable of the industry,"

If you want honest answers it's best not to start calling people "bud" on here. It's derogatory.
[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be derogatory.

How is shaft pureing not helpful? (which I believe SST Pureing isn't voodoo). I just felt your statement on pureing was somewhat incorrect. What other options do you feel club builders try and upswell to generate revenue. That's an honest question.
[/quote]

SST Pureing is, IMO, comparable to magnetic bracelets commonly worn on tour. Aside from no scientific proof for either, we get promotional marketing material. Yet, a great many pros wear those bracelets, and some have shafts Pured, if not for any reason, but superstition, maybe hope, and or they get both for nothing.

After hitting a PX 6.0 shaft in a test head, I had it SST pured, opted for distance vs control and had it reinstalled. There was no noticeable difference. IMO, with better shafts, manufacturing materials, techniques and tolerances, by design pure the shaft.
[/quote]

I have no proof either, but I'd gently offer that it's hard to make a judgment off just one iron. I've had several full sets of iron shafts pured for my own builds, and the data sheets show that a few of the shafts are grade A....very little asymmetry and very close to the design specs for freq. These don't need puring, and others in the sets only show a little and may not be noticable. I've only had a few sets of irons where all the clubs have felt neutral and well-matched. I don't know if the magnetic thing is the best comparison, as there is no scientific underpinning there, but at least there is a straightforward engineering argument to be made for shaft symmetry...and a straightforward machine that does a very good job at measuring it. If I had a preference, it would be for shafts that didn't need to pured or have any sort of orientation, but I've seen enough of these Pure output/data sheets to know that there are a lot of out-of-round, out of spec shafts out there from many manufacturers...high end and low end. I think of it more as an extra quality control step, rather than some mysterious magical fix.

[NPVWhiz]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356647254' post='6125627']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356636251' post='6124717']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356396747' post='6113615']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356396319' post='6113595']
Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. …. It's not a minimum gain. Its huge.
[/quote]

Huge? Spining your shafts made your irons better on a HUGE level? Interesting. Even some major manufacturers have called the concept "murky" at best.

If your game is THAT much better after the process in your estimation, that's all that matters.
[/quote]

Every single pro does it. I can tell if I am hitting an aligned shaft. Out of my new RBZ's I knew the 8 was the only one that was close and tuning proved it.
[/quote]

1. Not every single pro does it. I know 4 pros. 2 on the PGA Tour, 1 LPGA, and 1 Futures. 3 of them do not do it for certain - and the fourth one I have my doubts. But you were likely told that they do it by whoever sold you the service.

2. If I handed you a 2 identical clubs and one was spined, you may or may not know the difference. There is no guarantee and the fact that you state that that you can tell simply invalidates you.

3. Nobody's handicap drops "like flys" from the process of aligning the spine. The fact that you believe this invalidates your argument. Maybe you're just adapting to your BRAND NEW "Rocketbladez" irons. You know this takes time as well. Likely you are confusing your improvement with another issue.
[/quote]

I know this thing about Pureing has been flogged in other threads, and maybe he overstated the case a bit, but many players that make their living playing golf will tell you that if they have a set of irons made up to their specs...not with shafts that have had any extra QC steps or analysis, but just with a set that gets pulled at random from the big boxes of inventory they have at a place like GolfWorks or Golfsmith, there will be one or two irons in that set that, after a few range sessions, have to go live in the basement. Top players have been doing this type of thing for decades. Years ago you'd see these fabulously mixed bags of irons that players would have with irons pulled from different sets, even different models, but all the same shaft and spec. These days, I think players spend a lot of time putting together a full set and a backup set. No question, there are many professionals out on tour that haven't a clue about equipment beyond DGX100 or PX7.0 and D-3. The players that really hit the ball on the button and make very compact wear spots are the ones I think that can really sense this consistently and can tell you right away if one or two irons in a set are off, for whatever reason. I think the shaft is the culprit in these cases. Pureing is about the only thing available that can give you any data that's useful for evaluating this question.

It seems logical to me that if I were trying to make a living playing golf, I'd have several sets made, and I would spend time on the range working through the sets to find the clubs that were sweet...the ones that felt right, and I'd assemble the set that way. What makes an iron feel dead on solid and just a little off may not be much in the way of shaft symmetry, but I can't come up with any other factor that can account for it. The most consistent sets of irons I've had have been assembled with Pured shafts, and I've never had a set that was as consistent and uniform with builds done "label up" with no orientation or other type of shaft analysis. To each his own as far as I'm concerned on this one. People that can feel it should take advantage of it. Those that can't, no harm in that. It leaves the wallet a little fatter.

[station2station]

[quote name='NPVWhiz' timestamp='1356708174' post='6128769']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356647254' post='6125627']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356636251' post='6124717']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356396747' post='6113615']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356396319' post='6113595']
Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. …. It's not a minimum gain. Its huge.
[/quote]

Huge? Spining your shafts made your irons better on a HUGE level? Interesting. Even some major manufacturers have called the concept "murky" at best.

If your game is THAT much better after the process in your estimation, that's all that matters.
[/quote]

Every single pro does it. I can tell if I am hitting an aligned shaft. Out of my new RBZ's I knew the 8 was the only one that was close and tuning proved it.
[/quote]

1. Not every single pro does it. I know 4 pros. 2 on the PGA Tour, 1 LPGA, and 1 Futures. 3 of them do not do it for certain - and the fourth one I have my doubts. But you were likely told that they do it by whoever sold you the service.

2. If I handed you a 2 identical clubs and one was spined, you may or may not know the difference. There is no guarantee and the fact that you state that that you can tell simply invalidates you.

3. Nobody's handicap drops "like flys" from the process of aligning the spine. The fact that you believe this invalidates your argument. Maybe you're just adapting to your BRAND NEW "Rocketbladez" irons. You know this takes time as well. Likely you are confusing your improvement with another issue.
[/quote]

To each his own as far as I'm concerned on this one. People that can feel it should take advantage of it. Those that can't, no harm in that. It leaves the wallet a little fatter.
[/quote]

I'll agree. But whether it's reality or placebo is up for debate. I've hit iron sets and individual woods that had the shafts "Pured" and I can't ever feel the difference. But if some folks can that's ok. I just won't listen to a guy say his handicap is dropping consistently and in a HUGE fashion based on the SST procedure - Especially on irons that came out a month ago which he couldn't have played more than a few times before having the Pure'd. There is certainly another factor in his rapid improvement.

I'll agree with your take a few posts ago that essentially concludes that it probably does no harm, why not just toss in an extra quality step for good measure. As in "If it might save you one stroke over five 18 hole rounds of golf, why not"

Hey, it's scientifically proven that placebo works. And if it works, who cares about the mechanism by which it works. The human brain is able to overcome some amazing things with belief.

I'll save the few bucks it costs because the mere fact that my driver logo is cockeyed from the address view messes with my swing more than pureing helps. Without question.

[practicetee]

[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356636251' post='6124717']
[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356396747' post='6113615']
[quote name='chuckyz2' timestamp='1356396319' post='6113595']
Spinne aligning the stock shafts made the clubs feel and play completely different and way better. …. It's not a minimum gain. Its huge.
[/quote]

Huge? Spining your shafts made your irons better on a HUGE level? Interesting. Even some major manufacturers have called the concept "murky" at best.

If your game is THAT much better after the process in your estimation, that's all that matters.
[/quote]

Every single pro does it. I can tell if I am hitting an aligned shaft. Out of my new RBZ's I knew the 8 was the only one that was close and tuning proved it.

I got the same results from previous sets and the same feedback from others that I helped. Murky? I think not.

One guy had a driver issue. Was a great golfer. Had a hard time finding the fairway consistantly. I did a driver for him and now he has a hard time missing the fairway and it lowered his handicap from a 5 to a 2. One shaft tweek! Murkey?

I changed the shaft in an old steelhead plus that was a junk club. I check the spine in the old shaft and it was off a lot. I had another that was a great club. The spine was on the money. Both clubs are money now. Murkey?

My hc is dropping like flys. This word murkey, it is a good word, no?
[/quote]


Sorry I've been on my fair share of tour trailers and have never seen or heard of anyone talking about spining or floing a shaft even once. You're either experiencing a placebo effect or maybe you were just making better swings at the ball.

[Myherobobhope]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356708765' post='6128817']
I'll save the few bucks it costs because the mere fact that my driver logo is cockeyed from the address view messes with my swing more than pureing helps. Without question.
[/quote]

You can save yourself even more money and just buy Arthur Extreme shafts... they are pured with the logo facing up.

[bluedot]

For those of you who seem dead set in the opinion that spining/puring is a some kind of marketing ploy, I'd urge you to watch it done and then see what you think.

Even better, take all of the 5 woods (or whatever) of a particular club in a store and ask them to check the frequency on each and watch it done. Not only will you find the frequencies are all over the place, but you will see shafts that go all over the place on the machine.

My question for you would by why in the world you would think that a shaft that is going in circles while having the frequency checked with a flick of an index finger would NOT be horribly inconsistent when being moved in a 12-15' inclined arc at 90+ mph? Really???

(BTW, the reason you don't hear tour pros talking about it more is that it is done for them automatically by the manufacturers; too much is at stake to leave anything to chance.)

[TomWishon]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356732800' post='6130971']
My question for you would by why in the world you would think that a shaft that is going in circles while having the frequency checked with a flick of an index finger would NOT be horribly inconsistent when being moved in a 12-15' inclined arc at 90+ mph? Really???

(BTW, the reason you don't hear tour pros talking about it more is that it is done for them automatically by the manufacturers; too much is at stake to leave anything to chance.)
[/quote]

I did a lot of the practical research to support Dick Weiss' SST PURE technical concepts of shaft orientation so I have a lot of experience in this matter. It is possible for a shaft to be asymmetrical enough in its bending properties about its circumference so as to cause a shaft induced miss hit. You do not see the severity of shaft asymmetry today among the quality made shafts that you saw back in 1997 when Dick discovered this possibility because most of the quality shaft manufacturers do some form of testing on 100% of their premium shafts to find a stable plane of oscillation. However, it is most certainly possible to find modern shafts which have enough asymmetrical bending properties that a very consistent late release player can experience a shaft induced miss hit and can benefit from PUREing or proper FLO analysis of their shafts.

However, this matter of seeing a shaft oscillate in a frequency machine in a wobbly manner is not really a proper indication of whether it can result in a shaft induced miss hit The reason is that in the golf swing, the shaft only "oscillates" one time - it loads and then unloads just once. In a frequency analyzer, what you are seeing in the shaft's "ovalling or wobbly" oscillation occurs after several oscillations. So that is not an appropriate form of analysis. However, it is true that if you see a shaft oscillate repeatedly in a dead straight manner through several oscillations, you can pretty much say that if you install the shaft in the club so that its stable plane of oscillation is in the direction of the golfer's swing path through the ball, the shaft would not likely cause any form of a miss hit.

TOM

[station2station]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1356734586' post='6131077']
The reason is that in the golf swing, the shaft only "oscillates" one time - it loads and then unloads just once.

TOM
[/quote]

THIS. My swing goes back, and then pauses (hopefully) for a millisecond, the comes back down - that's all. I've never met a shaft that is so out of whack that @100mph will knock my swing off of it's natural plane enough to mishit a golf ball.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

[quote name='station2station' timestamp='1356748459' post='6132117']
[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1356734586' post='6131077']
The reason is that in the golf swing, the shaft only "oscillates" one time - it loads and then unloads just once.

TOM
[/quote]

THIS. My swing goes back, and then pauses (hopefully) for a millisecond, the comes back down - that's all. I've never met a shaft that is so out of whack that @100mph will knock my swing off of it's natural plane enough to mishit a golf ball.
[/quote]

And if you did encounter a shaft that out of whack, wouldn't it be better to swap it out for a a non-defective shaft than to pay someone to align it in a way that minimizes the effect of it being a piece of junk?

As Tom alluded to, the whole industry nowadays knows how to deliver shafts that are very consistent with respect to plane of oscillation. I'd think the rational consumer should just insist on quality and consistency when he pays 50, 100, 200 dollars or more for a graphite shaft.

[station2station]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1356732800' post='6130971']
For those of you who seem dead set in the opinion that spining/puring is a some kind of marketing ploy, I'd urge you to watch it done and then see what you think.
[/quote]

Seen it many times - both spining and Pureing. Seen the rotation device, seen the computer software - watched it being done. Matter of fact we have measured a shaft that had a serious indicated "hard spot" and then installed it intentionally out of kilter with 5 min tour van epoxy and hit it repeatedly. No noticeably improvement in ball contact or flight.

I will grant you that the devices (typically) returns the same data - meaning the machine repeats itself. (although the two types of alignment techniques don't always jive with one each other).

…but my argument is that it doesn't have practical value on the course.

[JCAG]

Tom did say:

[b]However, it is true that if you see a shaft oscillate repeatedly in a dead straight manner through several oscillations, you can pretty much say that if you install the shaft in the club so that its stable plane of oscillation is in the direction of the golfer's swing path through the ball, the shaft would not likely cause any form of a miss hit.[/b]

Is this not reason enough to have it done?

[JCAG]

[quote name='boston blackie' timestamp='1356392436' post='6113437']
I was fitted by a guy who was a Wishon system user, and listed on the Wishon website, when I got back into golf three seasons ago. In my opinion, i might just as well have opened his door, thrown a couple of hundred dollars in, and walked away.

For my money I got a few pages of statistics that may as well be trigonometry (which I failed). Maybe better communication would have helped who knows.
[/quote]

Not all clubmakers are created equal. There is a top 100 club fitter list floating about. I personally/professionally know a good many of them on that list. Of those I know, there are some I would do business with in a heart beat. There are others I would not let change a grip on my club. There are some of the best in the business not even on that list.

[jaskanski]

[quote name='accufitgolf' timestamp='1356794080' post='6133577']
Tom did say:

[b]However, it is true that if you see a shaft oscillate repeatedly in a dead straight manner through several oscillations, you can pretty much say that if you install the shaft in the club so that its stable plane of oscillation is in the direction of the golfer's swing path through the ball, the shaft would not likely cause any form of a miss hit.[/b]

Is this not reason enough to have it done?
[/quote]

But does the club oscillate repeatedly during the downswing phase? No, it only oscillates after impact. What it does prior to impact is to bend in a single plane of the direction of the swing, thus leaving this point on orientation irrelevant. However, it is proven that orientation has an effect on frequency and therefore flex - it is usually advisable for matching iron sets flex. But for head stability during the swing on single club? I don't think it has any more merit than a placebo.

[rgolf06]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1355966695' post='6093549']
I'm average size (black dot in Ping static guide) and I shoot in the mid 90's. I think that the best "bang for the buck" for me is to buy some impact tape and pound dirt until I get consistant strikes. I have a hard time believing that finding the "Perfect flex shaft" or anything else along those lines would be as helpful.
[/quote]
and you are exactly right ......