Need SHAFT advice..... Should have realized this before...

[mattbbaker]

First a little background....

1. Been playing seriously since I was 12

2. Been scratch or round about since I was 16

3. Never really looked at launch monitor numbers...picked a driver by the the sound and feel of the head and face upon impact

4. Swing speed 113

5. Current driver Titleist 910 d3... Diamana white board + 72 g STIFF

 

This is the first driver I have played in a long time with a STIFF shaft as I normally play X in driver to prevent the hook....however when I tested different shafts out the X felt too "boardy" and I couldn't tell where the head was in the swing...I felt like I loaded this shaft better at the top...but again I never looked at launch monitor numbers...

 

As of late though I keep seeing all these pros post their numbers and I realize I'm much less efficient after going to check my numbers...(p.s I have BS and MS in physics so I understand the dynamics of what is happening but I need more practical advice based on experience)

 

I have a slight down angle of attack with the driver which I'm trying to work on but that is just naturally my swing....nevertheless with the setup above I'm avg about 3500 rpm back spin with a 13 degree launch angle avg 275 carry and 287 total...I saw rorys numbers on twitter yesterday (1700 rpm backspin)...he is getting 30 yds more carry with only 4mph more club head speed...this is due to my spin rate...

 

Now, what shafts have any of you had success with in extremely lowering spin rate? I know this is a highly subjective qst with several variables but playing in FL when it's windy I start to notice that guys I normally fly it by without wind are boring it past me bc my ball spins up a bit more..it's not like I'm hitting it 230 but I'm losing quite a bit of yardage and roll...please feel free to PM me if you have good insight..cost of the shaft is not really a concern bc I can demo one And it works...I'll pay.. Thanks guys for any help !

 

Matt

[jaskanski]

I hate to break the news to you, but your perceived lack of distance has nothing to do with spin. Rory has a positive angle of attack and a near perfect smash factor - combined with an extra 4mph of speed, these factors alone are worth the added distance achieved.
if you want to play with the numbers yourself, you can do it using the flightscope trajectory optimizer here:
http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html
If you do, you will see that spin rate has nothing to do with it - in actual fact, your spin rate may even be of benefit given your launch characteristics.
I really wish people would stop blaming spin as the "bad guy" and look into the whole picture as to why they can't produce similar results to (let's face it) one of the best players in the world. You may well have a BS and MS in physics, but you're not understanding basic common sense. Perhaps you need a rethink - and a fitting session.

[Mob]

If you are hitting your driver 287 yards and hitting fairways, you are above the PGA tour average by 10 yards. I wouldn't change anything. You may end up changing things and being worse off. If you can demo different shafts, try a Motore Speeder VC 6.2 Tour Spec shaft it plays very stiff.

[mattbbaker]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1360516598' post='6399907']
I hate to break the news to you, but your perceived lack of distance has nothing to do with spin. Rory has a positive angle of attack and a near perfect smash factor - combined with an extra 4mph of speed, these factors alone are worth the added distance achieved.
if you want to play with the numbers yourself, you can do it using the flightscope trajectory optimizer here:
http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html
If you do, you will see that spin rate has nothing to do with it - in actual fact, your spin rate may even be of benefit given your launch characteristics.
I really wish people would stop blaming spin as the "bad guy" and look into the whole picture as to why they can't produce similar results to (let's face it) one of the best players in the world. You may well have a BS and MS in physics, but you're not understanding basic common sense. Perhaps you need a rethink - and a fitting session.
[/quote]

You are right about one thing...I do need a legitimate fitting session unlike the standard golf galaxy or Edwin watts Simulators.....however, spin is a huge factor in maintaining the proper trajectory....the flight scope equations do not factor in air density or dynamic drag and friction vortices caused by spin. Their spin factor only builds into the flight path for height and subsequently impact angle and "roll". Furthermore, these factors are calculated the moment directly after impact which is not fully representative of actual ball characteristics.....the overall goal would be to flatten my swing at achieve a more positive angle of attack to get the absolute optimal results. These monitors are great at comparing isolated components between different clubs but it is not on an absolute scale. For me, reducing the spin rate will bring my launch down slightly (bad) but flatten the trajectory (good). I have a high enough ball flight to where this change would help the issue. Again, I'm more concerned about this during windy conditions. Lastly, this is not meant in any way to discredit your opinion or be disrespectful but even the "expert" fitters do not understand the full concept behind the dynamics of golf ball flight. They know how to optimize the numbers produced on a machine.

Luckily there is a TM PI about 30 minutes from where I'm temporarily staying in NJ for work (just found this 30 mins ago) so I think I may drop the $150 this weekend!!

[jaskanski]

[quote name='mattbbaker' timestamp='1360518483' post='6400087']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1360516598' post='6399907']
I hate to break the news to you, but your perceived lack of distance has nothing to do with spin. Rory has a positive angle of attack and a near perfect smash factor - combined with an extra 4mph of speed, these factors alone are worth the added distance achieved.
if you want to play with the numbers yourself, you can do it using the flightscope trajectory optimizer here:
[url="http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html"]http://www.flightsco...-optimizer.html[/url]
If you do, you will see that spin rate has nothing to do with it - in actual fact, your spin rate may even be of benefit given your launch characteristics.
I really wish people would stop blaming spin as the "bad guy" and look into the whole picture as to why they can't produce similar results to (let's face it) one of the best players in the world. You may well have a BS and MS in physics, but you're not understanding basic common sense. Perhaps you need a rethink - and a fitting session.
[/quote]

You are right about one thing...I do need a legitimate fitting session unlike the standard golf galaxy or Edwin watts Simulators.....however, spin is a huge factor in maintaining the proper trajectory....the flight scope equations do not factor in air density or dynamic drag and friction vortices caused by spin. Their spin factor only builds into the flight path for height and subsequently impact angle and "roll". Furthermore, these factors are calculated the moment directly after impact which is not fully representative of actual ball characteristics.....the overall goal would be to flatten my swing at achieve a more positive angle of attack to get the absolute optimal results. These monitors are great at comparing isolated components between different clubs but it is not on an absolute scale. For me, reducing the spin rate will bring my launch down slightly (bad) but flatten the trajectory (good). I have a high enough ball flight to where this change would help the issue. Again, I'm more concerned about this during windy conditions. Lastly, this is not meant in any way to discredit your opinion or be disrespectful but even the "expert" fitters do not understand the full concept behind the dynamics of golf ball flight. They know how to optimize the numbers produced on a machine.

Luckily there is a TM PI about 30 minutes from where I'm temporarily staying in NJ for work (just found this 30 mins ago) so I think I may drop the $150 this weekend!!
[/quote]

Like I said, you're probably missing a bit of common sense.

[scottvw13]

[quote name='mattbbaker' timestamp='1360518483' post='6400087']

You are right about one thing...I do need a legitimate fitting session unlike the standard golf galaxy or Edwin watts Simulators.....however, spin is a huge factor in maintaining the proper trajectory....the flight scope equations do not factor in air density or dynamic drag and friction vortices caused by spin. Their spin factor only builds into the flight path for height and subsequently impact angle and "roll". Furthermore, these factors are calculated the moment directly after impact which is not fully representative of actual ball characteristics.....the overall goal would be to flatten my swing at achieve a more positive angle of attack to get the absolute optimal results. These monitors are great at comparing isolated components between different clubs but it is not on an absolute scale. For me, reducing the spin rate will bring my launch down slightly (bad) but flatten the trajectory (good). I have a high enough ball flight to where this change would help the issue. Again, I'm more concerned about this during windy conditions. Lastly, this is not meant in any way to discredit your opinion or be disrespectful but even the "expert" fitters do not understand the full concept behind the dynamics of golf ball flight. They know how to optimize the numbers produced on a machine.

Luckily there is a TM PI about 30 minutes from where I'm temporarily staying in NJ for work (just found this 30 mins ago) so I think I may drop the $150 this weekend!!
[/quote]

Wow Matt. I am analytical to a fault, but I think you may be over thinking this a little.

Remember, we don't play launch monitor or golf swing. We play golf, and driving is just one part of the game.

Now if you were one of those long drive guys...

[jay65]

Jaskanski is quite right once again, with a negative angle of attack, having that spin rate may actually be helping you. Yes, you could lower the spin rate by having a Motore 7/6.2 Tour spec, to knock some spin off, but this could be at your detriment, as with a negative AoA, the ball flight could be adversely affected and no gains would be seen. You are obviously a very competent player, so as Jaskanski says, working on that negative AoA would be the first port of call if I were you, and a decent fitter. Good luck, I'm sure you will be successful.

[mattbbaker]

[quote name='jay65' timestamp='1360519003' post='6400147']
Jaskanski is quite right once again, with a negative angle of attack, having that spin rate may actually be helping you. Yes, you could lower the spin rate by having a Motore 7/6.2 Tour spec, to knock some spin off, but this could be at your detriment, as with a negative AoA, the ball flight could be adversely affected and no gains would be seen. You are obviously a very competent player, so as Jaskanski says, working on that negative AoA would be the first port of call if I were you, and a decent fitter. Good luck, I'm sure you will be successful.
[/quote]

I agree. The negative AoA is not ideal but like I said that is my swing..it is quite a benefit with the irons but I struggle hitting it to the right if I consciously try to hit up on the ball. It's all relative really and depends on your ultimate goal for the game...and yes at times I'm too analytical and it gets me in trouble as I tinker during the middle of the round. However my only goal here was to get practical feedback on shafts used by members with the same experience. Look at address, feel, and playability are still the most important to me!

[jay65]

[quote name='mattbbaker' timestamp='1360519398' post='6400187']
[quote name='jay65' timestamp='1360519003' post='6400147']
Jaskanski is quite right once again, with a negative angle of attack, having that spin rate may actually be helping you. Yes, you could lower the spin rate by having a Motore 7/6.2 Tour spec, to knock some spin off, but this could be at your detriment, as with a negative AoA, the ball flight could be adversely affected and no gains would be seen. You are obviously a very competent player, so as Jaskanski says, working on that negative AoA would be the first port of call if I were you, and a decent fitter. Good luck, I'm sure you will be successful.
[/quote]

I agree. The negative AoA is not ideal but like I said that is my swing..it is quite a benefit with the irons but I struggle hitting it to the right if I consciously try to hit up on the ball. It's all relative really and depends on your ultimate goal for the game...and yes at times I'm too analytical and it gets me in trouble as I tinker during the middle of the round. However my only goal here was to get practical feedback on shafts used by members with the same experience. Look at address, feel, and playability are still the most important to me!
[/quote]

Thats fine. If you take the negative AoA out of the equation, then I would guess, looking at your numbers that you are just about 'maxed out'. But as Jaskanski says quite rightly, its the AoA thats hurting your numbers, not the spin rate as such. I'm not sure what else you would like to know, but your numbers are very good, given that negative AoA.

[TheDominator273]

The spin definitely needs to come down. Even with a negative AoA at your SS/BS ideally that spin would be lower by about 1000 rpms

[play18now]

What's the loft on the driver? Also straight ball speed can have a lot to do with that too. Rory's ball speed is 175-180. You know more about drag than I do, so the numbers obviously be improved, but if you're averaging 287 and hitting a reasonable number of fairways, I don't see what the problem is..

[Dizz]

You can still have very low spin with a negative AoA. The average AoA on the PGA Tour is still negative. On good swings I routinely swing -1 to -1.5 and spin my driver at 2300-2500... the PING Anser driver I had spun under 2000. Also, 4 more mph of club head speed is quite a bit... Rory's ball speed is nearly 180 mph... that's flat out moving it. Most guy swinging in the 113 range would not find X too "boardy" and generally that will drop spin about 300 rpm with the same shaft.

If you're a scratch player I wouldn't go changing your golf swing to hit more up on the ball. I've seen quite a few guys take a step backward trying to play TrackMan and not golf. Find a good fitter that can get you a more efficient setup.

[Rosco1216]

What is a "slight downward" angle of attack? Too get a 13* initial LA you can't have a terribly negative angle of attack. Like J.W. said -1* is still normal for most pros. What is the loft of your driver? You just need to get probably fitted and I'm sure you will pick up 10-15 yards which will put you close to the 300 mark.

[indygolfman]

I always thought that a more positive AoA led to less spin and thus further distance. Am I wrong?

[Dizz]

[quote name='indygolfman' timestamp='1360631163' post='6410059']
I always thought that a more positive AoA led to less spin and thus further distance. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

Not necessarily but its going to be relative to contact location on the club face as well as the CG location of the head. Usually players with a more positive AoA have more efficient numbers on a TrackMan. Also a more positive AoA allows the player to use less loft to achieve optimal numbers...

[TomWishon]

[quote name='mattbbaker' timestamp='1360512512' post='6399563']


Now, what shafts have any of you had success with in extremely lowering spin rate? I know this is a highly subjective qst with several variables but playing in FL when it's windy I start to notice that guys I normally fly it by without wind are boring it past me bc my ball spins up a bit more..it's not like I'm hitting it 230 but I'm losing quite a bit of yardage and roll...please feel free to PM me if you have good insight..cost of the shaft is not really a concern bc I can demo one And it works...I'll pay.. Thanks guys for any help !
[/quote]

Matt

Please read this

http://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-practical-facts-about-spin-and-shaft-design/

because it will answer your questions.

TOM

[mattbbaker]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1360701048' post='6415159']
[quote name='mattbbaker' timestamp='1360512512' post='6399563']


Now, what shafts have any of you had success with in extremely lowering spin rate? I know this is a highly subjective qst with several variables but playing in FL when it's windy I start to notice that guys I normally fly it by without wind are boring it past me bc my ball spins up a bit more..it's not like I'm hitting it 230 but I'm losing quite a bit of yardage and roll...please feel free to PM me if you have good insight..cost of the shaft is not really a concern bc I can demo one And it works...I'll pay.. Thanks guys for any help !
[/quote]

Matt

Please read this

http://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-practical-facts-about-spin-and-shaft-design/

because it will answer your questions.

TOM
[/quote]


Tom,

Great article that confirms a lot of factors I had considered but had no practical observed experience over a range of golfers. Honestly, I like the shape of my drives ESP when I'm swinging well and I can immediately tell why ball flight has changed when I make an uncharacteristic swing. I appreciate your experience and advice on this matter.


Matt

[indygolfman]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1360632177' post='6410177']
[quote name='indygolfman' timestamp='1360631163' post='6410059']
I always thought that a more positive AoA led to less spin and thus further distance. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

Not necessarily but its going to be relative to contact location on the club face as well as the CG location of the head. Usually players with a more positive AoA have more efficient numbers on a TrackMan. Also a more positive AoA allows the player to use less loft to achieve optimal numbers...
[/quote]

Ah, I see. Thanks hombre!

[mattbbaker]

An update from the OP....since my last post, I have settled back in NC and got to experience some warm weather and practice. My approach to what I did next may have been a little unconventional but it its working...I am still gaming the 906f2 3 wood and 975 5 wood ( I like the small compact head and muted sound, solid feel). Both have UST V2 95 shafts in them (Stiff, though its a stout stiff). More importantly, the shaft is heavy. It makes me feel like I can swing the club with velocity and not worry about going left, which a never do with those clubs. It also has a better feel in the slot and through impact. I, at one time, had the 905R with a UST V2 X 76g shaft. I drove the ball great but the height was not pleasing (it was an 8.5* driver). Nonetheless, putting all this together, I reshafted my 9.5* 910d3 with an Diamana Blueboard (original) 83x (Heavy). I then cranked the loft up to 10.25 or 10.5 (I don't remember the increments). It has been a thing of beauty. The ball doesn't spin up, ever. It is a flat ball flight that carries and runs. It may be a little lower than some but it is beautiful and I have been hitting some bombs. Moreover, it is impossible to hit left. I can swing through it and if I swing to the left (aka Tiger like), I can finally hit a power fade. It may be just a mental thing but it is working like magic at the moment. It took a couple range sessions to dial in the feel and kick point but I cant remember the last time a drove the ball this well. Thinking of dropping a 913d3 head in just to compare.

[Largechris1]

I would be VERY cautious about trying to change to a positive angle of attack with the driver.....

Instruction like clampetts impact zone makes it clear that hitting down slightly on the driver (as mickelson seems to do at the moment) is legitimate..... And is far more consistent with every other club in the bag.....

I realise the trackman optimiser sheets give good results with positive angles and if mcilroy can do that then good for him....

But for mortals I would stick with the same swing for all clubs..... I think you are already suggesting you are struggling with consistency on positive angles..... I foresee only frustration for you in future if you go down that route...