How to become a scratch golfer?

[CSagan]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1364241340' post='6691301']
[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1364235506' post='6690453']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364232707' post='6689945']
Barring any physical issues, if you just have a good coach and want it bad enough i feel like anyone could get there.
[/quote]I am not being negative when I say not a chance, sorry. My question is how many of you commenting are scratch or aspiring to be scratch and extremely close? I've worked towards this goal for years and years and just now feel I actually have the potential to get close. I've played since I was 7! I'm by no means saying it can't be done I'm just saying it takes a very special player to consistantly play this game at a very finite level and thats OK with me now which may ironically be why I'm playing well...BB
[/quote]
CSagan is better than scratch. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see him play in the US Mid Am this year.
[/quote]

Why ty teach.

The more I work with good teachers the easier it seems the game can be taught. Thats why I think anyone barring any unusual limitation can get there eventually. All u need is time, money, a brain and the most important thing is a good teacher.

Imo of course.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1364248553' post='6692507']
[quote name='vman' timestamp='1364246506' post='6692185']
Not everyone can become a scratch golfer,even with desire,determination and good coaching.They may come close with diligent work but it's not the be all and end all.It's a goal for some and hopefully they enjoy trying to get there,Obee made a great post about what's required,but it's certainly not achievable for everyone.This isn't to be negative and trying to get there is admirable but you require some talent,flexibility,hand eye coordination, a good mental approach,a desire and the time to play and practise and a competitive instinct.Follow this up with an ability to strike the ball consistently,while controlling trajectory and add a solid short game and scratch is right around the corner.
[/quote]

The ability to make consistent (near) center-face contact while swinging a golf club at 85 - 100% of one's max clubhead speed is [b]not[/b] something that everyone has the ability to do. To my mind, that's as much of a "fact" as 2+2=4.

Hand-eye coordination is divvied out on a continuum basis, just like every other human skill. Some people are born with the ability to hit stationary and moving targets well, others are not. Some people were born with an abundance of fast-twitch muscle, others were not. I will never run the 40 in under 5 seconds, and I will never be able to slam-dunk a basketball even though I'm 6-foot tall and there are those among us that are 5'6" and can slam dunk a basketball. The 5'6" guy was born with fast-twitch muscle that I simply lack. End of story. Through practice, coaching, hard-work, and determination, I can learn to jump [b]higher[/b], and thereby become the best jumper that I can possibly be, but I will never, ever slam dunk a basketball on a 10-foot rim.

A person with an IQ of 60 will never be able to do calculus (doesn't mean that person can't postively contribute to society in many other ways). Most people do not have the athletic ability to hit a 95mph fastball, irrespective of the amount of time you spend coaching them -- they just don't have the physical tools.

We can all get better, but we also all have a "max ability" in just about everything. Why anyone would dispute this fact is beyond me.

Every amateur golfer that I know that is scratch/below-scratch is a fantastic athlete who plays other sports well. Every single one. Most lettered in one or multiple sports in high school and/or college (other than golf). Most can throw any ball accurately and with "zip." Most can play basketball at a mid to high level. And most can play every single racket sport very well to expertly, yet somehow we think that golf can be "mastered" by anyone.

Nothing could be further from the truth in the sports world. Just look around you at the millions of golfers out there and ask yourself why most are so miserably bad at the game. It has nothing to do with coaching -- it's due to the fact that the game is damn difficult to master.
[/quote]

I agree...see my previous post. There is a minimum level of natural physical ability that one must possess to get to scratch even with excellent coaching and thousands of hours of highly focused practice.

[johnnymac2201]

Obee, those last posts of yours are great. I think scratch golf, even when doing everything right, is going to be, I don't want to say impossible, but improbable, for most golfers.

On the other hand, I think with good fundamentals, and the time to play and practice, most golfers should be able to get into single digits.

John

[redhead]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1364235804' post='6690529']
I first played golf at 16 years old. Played maybe a dozen rounds from 16 to 19. Hurt my shoulder playing baseball in college and took up golf seriously at age 20. Was a low single digit player in two years. Was scratch by 25. Was consistently below scratch at 30. Took another couple years after that to become a truly competitive amateur where I could take my "country club game" into big tournaments and compete with the best amateurs in the country.

I'm 45 now, and while I can still hit all the shots I hit ten years ago, I'm going through a very difficult time with anxiety and yips with my putting an chipping/pitching right now. Trying to work that out. I'm now just a 0 to +1 player, and that's just not good enough to seriously compete at the elite mid-amateur level.

Here's an article I wrote quite a few years ago:


[center][b]Advice for the Low Handicap Golfer[/b][/center]
[center][b]On Taking His Game to the Next Level[/b][/center]

My initial advice to most golfers who want to become better [i]players[/i], is to actually [i]play[/i] more. After all, we play Golf, not “Golf Swing.” You get no points for the prettiest or most “technically sound” golf swing. You win or compete by getting the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible, and the list of world-class players with unorthodox golf swings is long and getting longer every year.

If you are reading this, then you are most likely already an accomplished golfer. What you need to learn is how to get the most out of your game – not how to have the swing of a PGA Tour pro. There are very few miracles in life, meaning few (if any) people who have been playing 2-handicap golf for 10 years will ever miraculously find the key to the perfect golf swing and start playing as a +4 to +5 index (which converts to a course handicap or +6 to +8), which is about where you need to be to compete on the Nationwide or PGA Tour level. That kind of swing change just isn’t going to happen.

Which is why I say it’s about learning how to [i]play[/i] the game and not learning some new golf [i]swing[/i]. Start learning how to get the most out of what you already have instead of relying on the pipe dream that some day you will “fix” your golf swing. Does that make sense? If not, then this article is not for you.

A few things before I get into the specifics: Play as much as you can, and play as many tournaments as possible. (I can't emphasize this enough). When you're not playing a tournament, always make sure you are playing a competitive match with someone and make sure you have some money on the line. And make it enough so that if you lose, it stings a bit.

Second, try to learn something from every single experience on the golf course. Pay attention to how you feel, what your tendencies are, and what your self-talk is like. For instance:[list=1]
[*]What did you feel like when you hit that 100 yard sand wedge to 5 feet?
[*]How about before you hit it?
[*]What happened when you dumped that shot into the lake?
[*]How did your state of mind prior to the shot influence the outcome, if at all?
[*]What did you say to yourself prior to shoving that tee shot out of bounds late in that one round when you were 2-under par and about to beat your personal best?
[*]Why did you snap-hook that 3-iron into the water from that ball-below-your-feet lie? Isn’t the ball supposed to right off ball-below-your-feet lies?
[*]Why do I always miss left from uphill lies?
[*]Why do I always miss left from [i]downhill[/i] lies? (Yes, the dominant miss for many good players from uphill [i]and[/i] downhill lies can be a pull, but for different reasons).
[*]Why do I leave so many 50 yard pitch shots short?
[*]Why do I have so much trouble on fast greens? Slow greens? Big breakers?
[/list]
These are just a sampling of the kinds of questions you should ask yourself. However, to even ask them to begin with, you must [b]pay attention[/b] on the golf course. Don't be judgmental – that’s a killer. Just pay attention and learn from yourself without beating yourself up and being overly critical.

As far as I can tell, to become a legitimate regionally or nationally competitive amateur golfer (generally in the +1 to +4 index range month in and month out), you need to master the following:

1) Drive the ball relatively straight and relatively long, so work on the driver. And you should be comfortable on right-to-left holes and left-to-right holes. This is a must. I play with lots of players that can only hit one shot with the driver – this is a recipe for disaster under pressure on a hole that doesn’t fit your eye.

You must, at the very minimum, be able to hit the ball straight when called upon if what you normally do is draw or fade the ball. Too many holes just do not fit a draw or a fade. If you can’t work the ball both ways, at least be able to hit it more-or-less straight when necessary.

2) Hit the ball solidly with reasonable accuracy and repeatability from 130 yards to 179 yards, so work a bit on your ball striking with 6-iron to pitching wedge. But don't get too caught up spending time here. Most players will yield better results by spending your practice time on the driver, full and three-quarter wedges, putting, and chipping/pitching.

3) Be a great full wedge player (80-120 yards). This means when you have gap wedge, sand wedge, or lob wedge in your hands from the fairway, you should expect to get the ball within 30 feet almost every time. Tour average from 75 to 100 yards is 18 feet. If you want to be a scratch player, you should certainly average 25 feet or so, which means [i]eliminating[/i] the horrible wedge shots from your bag. Absolutely zero: chunks, skulls, shanks, or duffs.

You must be rock solid with a wedge in your hands and feel like you have a better chance of knocking it in the hole, than missing the green. Now will you occasionally blade one or chunk one? Sure, but for most scratch and below golfers, that should be a very rare occurrence indeed.

4) Be able to hit the ball solidly from 180 to 220. You certainly don't need to spend much time here, you really only need to be able to make consistent contact such that your [i]distance is repeatable[/i] with the longer clubs. You're not going to hit a lot of greens from this distance, so don't fret when you miss from here. Just use your short game to get up and down, and try to stay away from the short side – especially in tournament play since the rough is usually up in big tournaments.

One thing to add here: Recent (since 2010?) statistical analysis has revealed that one of the biggest differences between top players is their ability on longer shots. While this is true, it does not invalidate my above point, which is: Learn to hit the long clubs [b]solidly[/b], but don’t feel like you have to hit the green every time from 200 yards – even the very best in the world don’t do that. You do, though, need to be able to compress the ball and keep it away from trouble from 180 – 220 in order to play true scratch or below golf.

5) Have a good to great short game. Of course the closer to great you are, the worse other parts of your game can be. I'm only a decent driver of the ball (relatively straight, but on the short side), but I was, for a while, a considerably better [i]player[/i] than most scratch amateurs because my short game was very, very good. Inside 130, I hit the ball very close, and there wasn’t a short-game shot that I wasn’t comfortable hitting. No lie, no pin, no situation ever scared me around the greens, and that’s where you need to get to if you want to play your best.

So how do you get there with the short game?

Spend lots of time on the practice green, and when you’re there, use your imagination! Practice some short pitches and chips, and ask yourself how many different ways there are to play the same shot – then execute each and every one of them. Experiment, and don't be afraid to look bad. Just get creative and do it! High, low, cut spin, go spin, bump it through the fringe, flop it up and stop it on a dime. You name it. If you're good enough to be a 3, you can play all of these shots, but can you play them when it counts? That's the question. If you don't practice them, you don't own them. And to have a great short game, you need to [i]own[/i] all the different shots.

One quick caveat: Do not fall in love with the flop shot. It’s a valuable tool to have in your “golf belt,” but it is over-used by many near scratch players that learn it and then want to use it every time there’s an opportunity. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use the lob wedge – I’m saying don’t use it to flop the ball, unless the situation demands it.

6) Be a good lag putter, which means controlling distance and seeing the line on longish putts. The longer and tougher a putt is, the more conservative you must be with your line. And when I say conservative, I mean erring on the high side. On many tough putts, you should really visualize the ball slowing down and literally trickling into the hole from the very top of the breaking point.

The reason? Ball coming in from the high side are working [i]toward[/i] the hole, whereas balls on the low side are working [i]away[/i] from the hole. It’s amazing, but this seemingly simple little distinction eludes so many otherwise good players.

7) Be good inside 6 feet with the putter. All I can say here is: Practice, practice, practice. Groove a stroke, and become confident with it. Practice at home, practice at work, practice anywhere you can. There is not “correct” putting stroke, period. Find one that works for you and that you feel comfortable with and groove it. And don’t be afraid to switch to a mid-putter or a long-putter if necessary to fight off the occasional bout with the yips. I’ve done that several times in my life, always with excellent success.

I also highly recommend keeping detailed stats on your rounds. It really helps when you can look back over 40 rounds or more at your strengths and weaknesses, since many of us have a skewed view of our games. For instance, if you think you have a pretty good short game, but you're only getting up and down 45% of the time from inside 30 yards, then you're really not as good as you think. Not saying this is you, just that keeping meticulous, detailed stats will tell you where you really [i]are[/i], not where you [i]think[/i] you are.

Finally, read plenty of stuff on the mental game:

Golf is Not a Game of Perfect
Extraordinary Golf
Pressure Golf
Zen Golf
Going Low
Golf: How Good Do You Want to Be?
et al.

I saved this for last, but at the near-scratch level, developing and improving the mental game is probably the most important. Learning to control your emotions and your mind on the golf course is absolutely crucial to playing your best golf. There are thousands of golfers out there with the ability to compete at the professional or regional/national amateur level that will never know how good they can be, because they refuse to conquer the inconsistent thinking that leads to so many of their poor decisions and shots.

I hope this has been helpful.

David Ober
[/quote]
[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1364248553' post='6692507']
[quote name='vman' timestamp='1364246506' post='6692185']
Not everyone can become a scratch golfer,even with desire,determination and good coaching.They may come close with diligent work but it's not the be all and end all.It's a goal for some and hopefully they enjoy trying to get there,Obee made a great post about what's required,but it's certainly not achievable for everyone.This isn't to be negative and trying to get there is admirable but you require some talent,flexibility,hand eye coordination, a good mental approach,a desire and the time to play and practise and a competitive instinct.Follow this up with an ability to strike the ball consistently,while controlling trajectory and add a solid short game and scratch is right around the corner.
[/quote]

The ability to make consistent (near) center-face contact while swinging a golf club at 85 - 100% of one's max clubhead speed is [b]not[/b] something that everyone has the ability to do. To my mind, that's as much of a "fact" as 2+2=4.

Hand-eye coordination is divvied out on a continuum basis, just like every other human skill. Some people are born with the ability to hit stationary and moving targets well, others are not. Some people were born with an abundance of fast-twitch muscle, others were not. I will never run the 40 in under 5 seconds, and I will never be able to slam-dunk a basketball even though I'm 6-foot tall and there are those among us that are 5'6" and can slam dunk a basketball. The 5'6" guy was born with fast-twitch muscle that I simply lack. End of story. Through practice, coaching, hard-work, and determination, I can learn to jump [b]higher[/b], and thereby become the best jumper that I can possibly be, but I will never, ever slam dunk a basketball on a 10-foot rim.

A person with an IQ of 60 will never be able to do calculus (doesn't mean that person can't postively contribute to society in many other ways). Most people do not have the athletic ability to hit a 95mph fastball, irrespective of the amount of time you spend coaching them -- they just don't have the physical tools.

We can all get better, but we also all have a "max ability" in just about everything. Why anyone would dispute this fact is beyond me.

Every amateur golfer that I know that is scratch/below-scratch is a fantastic athlete who plays other sports well. Every single one. Most lettered in one or multiple sports in high school and/or college (other than golf). Most can throw any ball accurately and with "zip." Most can play basketball at a mid to high level. And most can play every single racket sport very well to expertly, yet somehow we think that golf can be "mastered" by anyone.

Nothing could be further from the truth in the sports world. Just look around you at the millions of golfers out there and ask yourself why most are so miserably bad at the game. It has nothing to do with coaching -- it's due to the fact that the game is damn difficult to master.
[/quote]

I've found a gem right here. Very good explanation. Appreciate what you write here.

[juliette91]

[quote name='redhead' timestamp='1364169229' post='6683015']
I was wondering, is it so unbelievable difficult to reach the last part of this quest? Does it need daily training for instance. Is it lack of time, age factor, swing speed, physical build, mental, etc. Why this so small but important difference exist in your play?

A bit about me: I'm 30 years old now. I've been playing more than 3 years. I started playing relatively late. I regularly shoot low 80s, a couple times high 70s. I play on the weekend (depend on the weather) and doing practice/drill everyday at home.

So to the other scratch players out there, how long do you think it would take me to get to a scratch or somewhat close? Do you have any advice on shooting scratch golf?
[/quote]

My two cents, re read the post by the guy who was a football player and who started at 12-15 and ended up shooting in the 60s many times (for 18 holes). His explanation is credible and points out a couple things. FIrst, greens in regulation. Second, short game. Or it could be the other way around. Either way if you can do both you can become a scratch player, but it takes a lot of practice and it takes some natural ability. You can also increase your swing speed by careful targeted exercise. You can become a very very good putter by practicing it properly and consistently as you can with shots under 60 yards, too. You can't teach speed but you can increase yours by targeted exercise, even from 90 to 100 or higher. I've seen it done by ordinary club players. You can even learn how to become a mental golf giant, takes time, money and practice.

Pretty much nothing you can't learn how to do with time, energy a bit of ability and money. Go for it! I'd start out reading Beyond Golf to gain perspective on golf in your life.

[Hstead]

I am in the minority here, but for me, and I have been to scratch and will bet my right testi that I will be there by the middle of this summer, 2 now, swing technique is 90% for me. My short game is pretty good but needs improvement, and my putter is better than most. I am strong and can hit it far, so for me it is all about eliminating full swing mistakes.

I don't care how much you play, pay attention to your faults, play to your strengths etc., if your swing is not solid at returning the club relatively square and down your target line, and I am not getting into the ball flight laws etc, you are not going to be the best you can be. If you have a swing flaw, it is going to rear it's ugly head at some point and you are going to be re-teeing and losing 2 strokes, or dropping from a hazard etc. The way I have gotten there before and the way I plan to get there soon is by building a better swing, with fewer moving parts, and less room for errors. I chose to see slicefixer and to be honest is was not right for me and now I am heading to see Dan in two weeks. If you watch Dan's before and afters on his youtube channel, he can make big changes in a players swing to correct those flaws and save you strokes. CSagan's swing is on there so if anyone has any doubts about his HC, just check his swing out. Ray Charles could putt his ball for him and he can still shoot par. I have met CSagan in TXAR and he can hit is ball. He has worked with Dan recently and knows the value of a good coach. Personally, I have found that there are not many good coaches out there, and you have to find one that works for you. I have been to Suttie, Plummer, Sones, Sorrells, Geoff Jones, and Mic Potter over the past 25 years plus a few others. I have only found two that worked for me. Now I am heading to see Dan, as I feel confident he is going to be the third that will help rather than hurt my swing.

Again, please do not flame here as I am saying what works for me. If just playing a bunch of holes gets you better, then more power to you as I am not that talented. I have to work on the fundamentals of the swing so that my ball striking reaches a level that I do not have to worry about chipping much lol. If you hit 14 to 16 greens per round, and you can putt, it is hard to shoot over par. When I have a consistent one way miss, I can play. When I have a two way miss that can creep up at any time, no mental game nor course management can over come that.

There have been quite a few pro's that have lost it and can't break 80 anymore. It's not like they can just go out and play 36 holes per day for a few weeks and get it back. Most of them have some serious flaws in their action that caught up with them and they can't keep their ball in front of them on every shot anymore because of the flaw. Their short games and putters are still fairly good, although the yips get many, but they can't score due to ball striking.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

This is why there is no one answer to this question ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am the complete opposite, Have not been to an instructor since 1994 played to a scratch in high school stopped playing in my early to mid 20's, Then I started playing much more around the time I joined wrx within 18 months I got there again (well 0.09 to be honest) was trending lower then injury killed my game. Now for the 3rd time in my life I am working my way back to the elusive 0.00.

When I was a .09 I did it by playing a ton practicing very little 65 rounds in a year with a full time job and live in girlfriend to deal with. Golf comes pretty natural to me, Learned at a very young age and grooved my swing over the early years by focusing on the basics. One common factor with Hstead is I try and keep my swing simple with few moving parts.

This time around I am spending more time on the range for the fact I need to re train my body specifically my lower body to swing the club. I had both hips replaced recently and over the last couple years my swing became more of a thing of pain avoidance instead of an actual golf swing. So I do go to the range to work on my timing as well as work on golf muscle strength and stamina. Still am really weak after my surgeries.

I had not touched a club for 7 months and in the 11 rounds since my surgeries scores range from 76-86 with an average of 82.27. So clearly a long way to go but off to a much better start than even I thought would happen.

One thing I always tried to focus on was the weakest part of my game, There was no point in me hitting drivers over and over on the range when that was already my strength, instead I worked on scoring clubs then would spend the majority of my pre round warm up on the practice green and short game green. The other part is mental and keeping the focus and drive to play the best you can on any given day.

Can anyone get there prob not, can guys get there that have been low single digit players probably, I see it in some of my friends that play casually, they always talk about getting better but they wont put in the effort it takes to get better. I think we all have a set level of natural ability in this game some better than others, just like the stats show some will get there with the required work, but most will never get there in part due to LOFT and part due to lack of desire, time, $$ effort

[Evil Ecstasy]

My ability in golf seems to be 50% practice, 50% technique. Nothing more nothing less. I think the reason most dont get to scratch (that practice long hours) is bad technique. They cant find a coach that knows how to fix it, or are arent smart enough to fix it themselves.

Whereas I dont think technique is enough to get you on tour. Everyone has superb technique and has praticed their whole lives at that level. At that point it becomes about talent.

[FlemmingMertz]

There is a lot of good stuff in this thread also, for example this post:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/313108-getting-from-single-digit-to-scratch/page__st__30#entry2044995

[isaacbm]

So if anyone with enough determination and hard work or 10,000 hours of focused practice can be a "master" at anything, could we all do the same thing left handed?

I mean, if you're naturally right handed at golf, could you just switch and put in the time and be a scratch that way just as easily? Is aptitude (in this case a players natural dexterity) not relevant?

The difference in ability for a scratch and an average player is the same as the difference between an average player and himself if he suddenly switched and started playing from the other side of the ball.

Give it a try at the range next time, and tell me that aptitude has no relevance in this conversation.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1364289942' post='6696171']
So if anyone with enough determination and hard work or 10,000 hours of focused practice can be a "master" at anything, could we all do the same thing left handed?

[/quote]

[b]Its off topic[/b] but still people seldom respect golf forum rules anyhow:
Yes.
If you belive otherwise you wont make it.
You already set a limitation for yourself even before you started doing it, I call that stupid.
If aptitude was a requisite it would be the case but there are several who been able to play both ways scratch level and some even better.
so the answer is yes and just shows how much prejudice and ignorance there is out there especially for golf.
Its hilarious how silly golf conversations are.

10.000 hours with deliberate practice knowing what to practice and how to go about it is a guideline, for some its 2000 hours and for others 30000 hours.
and you can do it from the left side if you want.
aptitude aside.

[b]On topic:[/b] Consistency is the key measurement and making scratch is about that, cant afford mistakes and once those are minimized then its more mental than anything else throwing the technique cruch out of the debate.. which then makes everyone uncomfortable as all they do is talk technique when its not about that.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1364291769' post='6696201']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1364289942' post='6696171']
So if anyone with enough determination and hard work or 10,000 hours of focused practice can be a "master" at anything, could we all do the same thing left handed?

[/quote]

Its hilarious how silly golf conversations are.

[/quote]

Perfect example.

[RBImGuy]

I solved the consistency which I previously stated.
I dont have the numbers yet for the simple reason that I dont know what the model will produce in scoring, yet (still winter here).
That it will allow anyone to become a scratch player isnt for me to say but there is no indication to contradict that as far.
Since the model is moving into territory unknown for the golf community and as a rule I never discuss theory as I work primary evidence based.

The swing below is Hans Andersson hitting a driver, he is now a 350yard hitter with a 4% dispersion pattern or better with my instruction set in the BMS system.
To compare for some reference in consistency a 4% dispersion is 4% better than the PGA tour average which for a 5i is 8% according to trackman.
For anyone wanting accuracy controlling dispersion is important as its key to then be able to control distance.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxLm4GIOZyY[/media]

Then to compare with his old swing mechanics which 99% of golfers use the modern stuff.
This is from mars 2011. trouble with consistency was not suprising.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhPNtvbiwE[/media]

[johnnymac2201]

Flopper, It's easy to see that Hans was a very good and talented player before he came to see you. The proof is going to be your own handicap. If someone comes on here saying that anyone can get to scratch, and hasn't done it themselves, then you can understand why I have to take your posts with a grain of salt. I wish you the best of luck this coming season, and if you achieve what you beleive you can, then I'll be the first to sign up for lessons.

John

[dolfinack]

[quote name='dmb316' timestamp='1364225974' post='6688673']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1364211934' post='6686869']
[quote name='redhead' timestamp='1364169229' post='6683015']
I was wondering, is it so unbelievable difficult to reach the last part of this quest? Does it need daily training for instance. Is it lack of time, age factor, swing speed, physical build, mental, etc. Why this so small but important difference exist in your play?

A bit about me: I'm 30 years old now. I've been playing more than 3 years. I started playing relatively late. I regularly shoot low 80s, a couple times high 70s. I play on the weekend (depend on the weather) and doing practice/drill everyday at home.

So to the other scratch players out there, how long do you think it would take me to get to a scratch or somewhat close? Do you have any advice on shooting scratch golf?
[/quote]

There are 29,000,000 "golfers" in the USA ([url="http://www.statisticbrain.com/golf-player-demographic-statistics/"]http://www.statistic...hic-statistics/[/url])

5,000,000 have USGA Handicaps

50,000 have handicaps of "0" or better.

1 out of every 600 golfers is a "Scratch" player.

In my 40 years of golf, I have not met a single Scratch golfer who wasn't in the very low single-digits by the time he was 25.

I'm at 6.2 this week. The difference between me and a scratch player, is about the same as the difference between a scratch player and Tiger Woods ... light years.

Anyone who's over the age of 25 and still in double digits, has a better chance of getting struck by lightening twice, than becoming a scratch golfer.

JMOYMMV
[/quote]

just the motivation i need to prove the above statement wrong.. for me
[/quote]

Agreed. This "you're screwed if you're not young" attitude is pure crap.

[dolfinack]

[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1364233460' post='6690127']
[quote name='dolfinack' timestamp='1364216179' post='6687173']
Fair few negative attitudes on here. I say if you want it, you can do it.
[/quote]

I see. If I just want it more, I'll get there? Got it.

Frankly, that is insulting. I'd rather have someone question my talent versus my desire.
[/quote]

Pity you took offence when only friendly encouragement was intended. Can vs will/won't.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1364300640' post='6696589']
I solved the consistency which I previously stated.
I dont have the numbers yet for the simple reason that I dont know what the model will produce in scoring, yet (still winter here).
That it will allow anyone to become a scratch player isnt for me to say but there is no indication to contradict that as far.
Since the model is moving into territory unknown for the golf community and as a rule I never discuss theory as I work primary evidence based.

The swing below is Hans Andersson hitting a driver, he is now a 350yard hitter with a 4% dispersion pattern or better with my instruction set in the BMS system.
To compare for some reference in consistency a 4% dispersion is 4% better than the PGA tour average which for a 5i is 8% according to trackman.
For anyone wanting accuracy controlling dispersion is important as its key to then be able to control distance.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxLm4GIOZyY[/media]

Then to compare with his old swing mechanics which 99% of golfers use the modern stuff.
This is from mars 2011. trouble with consistency was not suprising.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhPNtvbiwE[/media]
[/quote]


Much of this conversation revolves around one's thoughts on human potential...that is where the crux of the argument is...

For those who believe anyone can achieve anything given time/training/determination, etc. I would love to hear more about your thoughts on aptitude. In that, I mean to ask, what role does aptitude play regarding golf achievement, as measured by HC?

[CSagan]

[quote name='johnnymac2201' timestamp='1364304054' post='6696941']
Flopper, It's easy to see that Hans was a very good and talented player before he came to see you. The proof is going to be your own handicap. If someone comes on here saying that anyone can get to scratch, and hasn't done it themselves, then you can understand why I have to take your posts with a grain of salt. I wish you the best of luck this coming season, and if you achieve what you beleive you can, then I'll be the first to sign up for lessons.

John
[/quote]

I am one of the ones saying that anyone can do it again barring physical limitations and having a GREAT coach.

Here's me about a year before I saw slicefixer for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X82gSgjFXTg

As you can see, smooth, effortless and SNAP CITY! I was around an 8-10 handicap in that video.

I saw Geoff in August 2011 for the first time, the next spring I shot 69 in a tourney from 7400 yards. Ty Slicefixer!

Here's my latest swings after a lesson with Dan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI

So in about 14 months I went from 8 to scratch.

There's another guy on here who works with Dan who was a 2 handicap and last year he shot 60 to win a mini tour event. Thats way better than just making it scratch haha.

Of course I studied a ton every week during that time, I practiced a lot and dug it out of the dirt. But the point is, I'm no specially talented person...I suck at basketball...scared of the ball in baseball...terrible at tennis...but I'm good at bowling, pool, golden tee, halo. You just gotta believe and find a good coach and put in the work. Slicefixer himself said anyone (barring physical limitations) can develop a championship caliber swing in 2 years. I think he might know a thing or two about what can be done.

[doglover72]

Read Paper Tiger. Terrific book. Author spends a year trying to make it to Q School and goes from a 12 or so to a plus handicap in that time. Of course he had no other obligations besides golf, the best coaches, equipment, etc. And even with that plus handicap I seem to recall that when he took it to tournaments he still shot in 80s. Playing to a low handicap or scratch on your home course with friends is one thing - doing so in a tournament where you have to putt everything is another.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364315838' post='6698611']
[quote name='johnnymac2201' timestamp='1364304054' post='6696941']
Flopper, It's easy to see that Hans was a very good and talented player before he came to see you. The proof is going to be your own handicap. If someone comes on here saying that anyone can get to scratch, and hasn't done it themselves, then you can understand why I have to take your posts with a grain of salt. I wish you the best of luck this coming season, and if you achieve what you beleive you can, then I'll be the first to sign up for lessons.

John
[/quote]

I am one of the ones saying that anyone can do it again barring physical limitations and having a GREAT coach.

Here's me about a year before I saw slicefixer for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X82gSgjFXTg

As you can see, smooth, effortless and SNAP CITY! I was around an 8-10 handicap in that video.

I saw Geoff in August 2011 for the first time, the next spring I shot 69 in a tourney from 7400 yards. Ty Slicefixer!

Here's my latest swings after a lesson with Dan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI

So in about 14 months I went from 8 to scratch.

There's another guy on here who works with Dan who was a 2 handicap and last year he shot 60 to win a mini tour event. Thats way better than just making it scratch haha.

Of course I studied a ton every week during that time, I practiced a lot and dug it out of the dirt. But the point is, I'm no specially talented person...I suck at basketball...scared of the ball in baseball...terrible at tennis...but I'm good at bowling, pool, golden tee, halo. You just gotta believe and find a good coach and put in the work. Slicefixer himself said anyone (barring physical limitations) can develop a championship caliber swing in 2 years. I think he might know a thing or two about what can be done.
[/quote]

In golf terms you were "specially talented" as a 4 handicap (or 8or whatever you were, youve said both in this thread) compared to the population who plays the game though. You were already pretty good compared to the masses and all that extra work allowed you to chip away at the margins and get down to scratch.

That's what hard work allows you to do, it allows you to chip away at the margins, the big chunk in the middle that makes some of us shoot 80 and some shoot 90 and some shoot 100 largely has to do with aptitude. Hard work is the difference between a 75 shooter and an 80 shooter, it relates to the margin, not what is central to the issue.

Look, I commend the hard work you've put in, but to say that ANYONE who plays the game will get to scratch just as long as they go to see YOUR teacher is a load of crap. The world is full of 35 handicappers who no matter what instruction they get will never break 90 let alone get to scratch.

You keep saying "barring physical ailments" as a cover for what you're saying. I hate to break it to you but not having any aptitude is a physical ailment too.

[CSagan]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1364318254' post='6698891']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364315838' post='6698611']
[quote name='johnnymac2201' timestamp='1364304054' post='6696941']
Flopper, It's easy to see that Hans was a very good and talented player before he came to see you. The proof is going to be your own handicap. If someone comes on here saying that anyone can get to scratch, and hasn't done it themselves, then you can understand why I have to take your posts with a grain of salt. I wish you the best of luck this coming season, and if you achieve what you beleive you can, then I'll be the first to sign up for lessons.

John
[/quote]

I am one of the ones saying that anyone can do it again barring physical limitations and having a GREAT coach.

Here's me about a year before I saw slicefixer for the first time.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X82gSgjFXTg[/media]

As you can see, smooth, effortless and SNAP CITY! I was around an 8-10 handicap in that video.

I saw Geoff in August 2011 for the first time, the next spring I shot 69 in a tourney from 7400 yards. Ty Slicefixer!

Here's my latest swings after a lesson with Dan.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI[/media]

So in about 14 months I went from 8 to scratch.

There's another guy on here who works with Dan who was a 2 handicap and last year he shot 60 to win a mini tour event. Thats way better than just making it scratch haha.

Of course I studied a ton every week during that time, I practiced a lot and dug it out of the dirt. But the point is, I'm no specially talented person...I suck at basketball...scared of the ball in baseball...terrible at tennis...but I'm good at bowling, pool, golden tee, halo. You just gotta believe and find a good coach and put in the work. Slicefixer himself said anyone (barring physical limitations) can develop a championship caliber swing in 2 years. I think he might know a thing or two about what can be done.
[/quote]

In golf terms you were "specially talented" as a 4 handicap (or 8or whatever you were, youve said both in this thread) compared to the population who plays the game though. You were already pretty good compared to the masses and all that extra work allowed you to chip away at the margins and get down to scratch.

That's what hard work allows you to do, it allows you to chip away at the margins, the big chunk in the middle that makes some of us shoot 80 and some shoot 90 and some shoot 100 largely has to do with aptitude. Hard work is the difference between a 75 shooter and an 80 shooter, it relates to the margin, not what is central to the issue.

Look, I commend the hard work you've put in, but to say that ANYONE who plays the game will get to scratch just as long as they go to see YOUR teacher is a load of crap. The world is full of 35 handicappers who no matter what instruction they get will never break 90 let alone get to scratch.

You keep saying "barring physical ailments" as a cover for what you're saying. I hate to break it to you but not having any aptitude is a physical ailment too.
[/quote]

I was 8 in that vid...got to a 4 before I saw slice the first time.

So you say that Geoff Jones' statement about anyone can be taught a championship caliber swing in 2 years is bs?

[dpb5031]

Love CSagan's swing and admire the improvement...quite similar to my own, but my swing doesn't look nearly as pretty (damn)!

Fact is though, I agree with Thrillhouse. Call it talent, aptitude, athletic ability, hand-eye coordination, body control, whatever...you need minimum amount of "it," combined with discipline, work ethic, and good coaching to get to scratch. If you've got more of "it," you'll get to scratch even easier/faster.

Tour pros tend to have plenty of "it," plus most had the advantage of starting the whole process when they were very young, before those myelin sheaths begin to petrify.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364319091' post='6699019']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1364318254' post='6698891']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364315838' post='6698611']
[quote name='johnnymac2201' timestamp='1364304054' post='6696941']
Flopper, It's easy to see that Hans was a very good and talented player before he came to see you. The proof is going to be your own handicap. If someone comes on here saying that anyone can get to scratch, and hasn't done it themselves, then you can understand why I have to take your posts with a grain of salt. I wish you the best of luck this coming season, and if you achieve what you beleive you can, then I'll be the first to sign up for lessons.

John
[/quote]

I am one of the ones saying that anyone can do it again barring physical limitations and having a GREAT coach.

Here's me about a year before I saw slicefixer for the first time.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X82gSgjFXTg[/media]

As you can see, smooth, effortless and SNAP CITY! I was around an 8-10 handicap in that video.

I saw Geoff in August 2011 for the first time, the next spring I shot 69 in a tourney from 7400 yards. Ty Slicefixer!

Here's my latest swings after a lesson with Dan.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI[/media]

So in about 14 months I went from 8 to scratch.

There's another guy on here who works with Dan who was a 2 handicap and last year he shot 60 to win a mini tour event. Thats way better than just making it scratch haha.

Of course I studied a ton every week during that time, I practiced a lot and dug it out of the dirt. But the point is, I'm no specially talented person...I suck at basketball...scared of the ball in baseball...terrible at tennis...but I'm good at bowling, pool, golden tee, halo. You just gotta believe and find a good coach and put in the work. Slicefixer himself said anyone (barring physical limitations) can develop a championship caliber swing in 2 years. I think he might know a thing or two about what can be done.
[/quote]

In golf terms you were "specially talented" as a 4 handicap (or 8or whatever you were, youve said both in this thread) compared to the population who plays the game though. You were already pretty good compared to the masses and all that extra work allowed you to chip away at the margins and get down to scratch.

That's what hard work allows you to do, it allows you to chip away at the margins, the big chunk in the middle that makes some of us shoot 80 and some shoot 90 and some shoot 100 largely has to do with aptitude. Hard work is the difference between a 75 shooter and an 80 shooter, it relates to the margin, not what is central to the issue.

Look, I commend the hard work you've put in, but to say that ANYONE who plays the game will get to scratch just as long as they go to see YOUR teacher is a load of crap. The world is full of 35 handicappers who no matter what instruction they get will never break 90 let alone get to scratch.

You keep saying "barring physical ailments" as a cover for what you're saying. I hate to break it to you but not having any aptitude is a physical ailment too.
[/quote]

I was 8 in that vid...got to a 4 before I saw slice the first time.

So you say that Geoff Jones' statement about anyone can be taught a championship caliber swing in 2 years is bs? I'm sure you know better.
[/quote]

Statements like that need to be taken with a grain of salt when they come from someone who makes their living off teaching. Its not right or wrong, it's just a sales pitch like any other.

As far as me not knowing better, I played D1 golf just like he did (although not on as good a team as he did), I played the mini tours just like he did, I've played with tour players just like he has, and I've worked with multiple top 100 teachers just like he has.

Yes he's older, and yes he continued his career in golf after deciding not to pursue a playing career any longer where I chose to do something else, but to suggest that he's all knowing and I'm I'm no position to dispute his sales pitch is a complete fallacy.

Can he get people to play better? I have no doubt that he can. Is he the only teacher capable of that? Far from it. Can he get anyone who comes to see him to play to a "championship caliber?" no, I don't believe that he can. I think that there are a lot of people out there for whom simply shooting in the 80's would be an enormous accomplishment. I don't think it's fair to minimize that accomplishment by running around yelling "ANY IDIOT CAN GET TO SCRATCH AS LONG AS THEY GO TO THE RIGHT TEACHER AND BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND PUT BLUEBERRIES IN THEIR OATMEAL EVERY MORNING!"

This whole thing from slicefixers followers on this site continues to be way out of hand. I think you need to tone it down in this thread. Wanna share an opinion of what every golfer can do? Fine, I have no problem with that. But if you want to keep screaming a baseless and unquantifiable opinion that you are presenting as fact at the top of your lungs at me I'm gonna take issue with it.

[CSagan]

I'm not presenting anything as fact. I stated earlier that this was in my opinion. If a person has two arms and a body and legs..I feel like they can be trained to swing the arms around their body on plane. If the person is an idiot then it probably isn't going to happen....but the blueberries might help!

[dpb5031]

I'm also a Geoff guy. He got me down to scratch from an inconsistent 5-7 hc. I love Geoff (spent last Saturday with him), but I can't completely agree with his statement. If anyone can coach someone to get there, he can, but I still believe that one has to have a certain level of innate physical talent to become a scratch golfer. Some people just don't have the body awareness and control, balance, dexterity, and coordination to be able to get there...period! Especially once they've reached adulthood.

No quantity of lessons, repetitions, drills, or mental coaching is going to get them there, just like no individual with an IQ of 90 is going to be able to become a nuclear physicist. I don't care how hard they study. It is a fact of life, people have limitations. Why would golf be any different?

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364320451' post='6699263']
I'm not presenting anything as fact. I stated earlier that this was in my opinion. If a person has two arms and a body and legs..I feel like they can be trained to swing the arms around their body on plane. If the person is an idiot then it probably isn't going to happen....but the blueberries might help!
[/quote]

No offense but while you made that statement once you haven't been consistent with it in this thread. And your last post to me was presented as a factual statement that you cited so I responded in kind.

In any case if you want to maintain that all you are doing is stating an opinion moving forward I'm willing to shake hands and walk away from this debate at this point. If you want to keep going we can do that too, your call.

[CSagan]

Yes people with physical limitations most likely wont be able to do it. I've said that all along.

[CSagan]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1364320700' post='6699297']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364320451' post='6699263']
I'm not presenting anything as fact. I stated earlier that this was in my opinion. If a person has two arms and a body and legs..I feel like they can be trained to swing the arms around their body on plane. If the person is an idiot then it probably isn't going to happen....but the blueberries might help!
[/quote]

No offense but while you made that statement once you haven't been consistent with it in this thread. And your last post to me was presented as a factual statement that you cited so I responded in kind.

In any case if you want to maintain that all you are doing is stating an opinion moving forward I'm willing to shake hands and walk away from this debate at this point. If you want to keep going we can do that too, your call.
[/quote]

What I said is my opinion and should not be taken as fact. Handshake, no hard feelings...was a good discussion.

[dpb5031]

[color=#0000ff]Statements like that need to be taken with a grain of salt when they come from someone who makes their living off teaching. Its not right or wrong, it's just a sales pitch like any other.

As far as me not knowing better, I played D1 golf just like he did (although not on as good a team as he did), I played the mini tours just like he did, I've played with tour players just like he has, and I've worked with multiple top 100 teachers just like he has.

Yes he's older, and yes he continued his career in golf after deciding not to pursue a playing career any longer where I chose to do something else, but to suggest that he's all knowing and I'm I'm no position to dispute his sales pitch is a complete fallacy.

Can he get people to play better? I have no doubt that he can. Is he the only teacher capable of that? Far from it. Can he get anyone who comes to see him to play to a "championship caliber?" no, I don't believe that he can. I think that there are a lot of people out there for whom simply shooting in the 80's would be an enormous accomplishment. I don't think it's fair to minimize that accomplishment by running around yelling "ANY IDIOT CAN GET TO SCRATCH AS LONG AS THEY GO TO THE RIGHT TEACHER AND BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND PUT BLUEBERRIES IN THEIR OATMEAL EVERY MORNING!"

This whole thing from slicefixers followers on this site continues to be way out of hand. I think you need to tone it down in this thread. Wanna share an opinion of what every golfer can do? Fine, I have no problem with that. But if you want to keep screaming a baseless and unquantifiable opinion that you are presenting as fact at the top of your lungs at me I'm gonna take issue with it.[/color]

Hey Thrill, not sure why your panties are in a bunch? I am a Slicefixer guy and I have agreed [u][i][b]with you [/b][/i][/u]throughout this thread. Are you ignoring my posts?

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1364319988' post='6699187']
Statements like that need to be taken with a grain of salt when they come from someone who makes their living off teaching. Its not right or wrong, it's just a sales pitch like any other.
[/quote]

I'm not aware that Geoff made that claim about ANYONE getting to scratch under his teaching.

And, I agree with you. I've met too many clumsy people that would struggle to become proficient at something basic like throwing or catching a ball. And then there are those who can learn a new sport as easily as I roll out of the bed in the morning.