How to become a scratch golfer?

[johnnymac2201]

I've seen a lot of the videos that Geoff has of his students on YouTube. Seems like most, if not all, are young, fit, and athletic looking. I think working with such students is going to get you a high rate of success. Just like the video Flopper has of Hans, who was already a PGA pro.

Flopper claims, though, that all we have to do is believe and put in the work, and of course, use his method, and we'll all be hitting 350 yard drives and breaking par like nobodies business.

Slicefixer would claim that us middle-aged, overweight guys, have physical limitations, I guess. Even though theres plenty of middle-aged, overweight scratch golfers.

I've met a lot of scratch golfers, who I ended up thinking after playing with them, that the best part of their game was their scorekeeping. Now they could help someone get down to scratch, guaranteed.

[Obee]

CSagan,

You were an 8 - 10 and you think that you weren't born with some hand-eye coordination gifts that others are lacking? Are you kidding me? That swing that you took in the top video is a pretty darn solid--and athletic--golf swing.

There was a guy at my club who used to be a 16ish handicap. Had a pretty awful golf swing. Didn't seem to be terribly coordinated. He dedicated his life to the game for two years. Took lessons from a top instructor, put in the blood sweat and tears. Really was committed. He got down to a 3.5. I know that [b]great[/b] improvement is possible in this game. No doubt.

However, my ten year old daughter could, literally, not bounce a tennis ball on the ground and hit it with a tennis racket, while other kids do it with ease the first time. Could my daughter get better at tennis? Of course. Could she become a "scratch" tennis player? Not a chance. Could she become a scratch golfer? Not a chance.

People gravitate to what they're (relatively) good at, so trotting out stories of someone who is an 8 and becomes scratch isn't proof of anything whatsoever. An 8 handicap is a damn good golfer! Just to get there you have to have some skill. You would never, ever hear me say that getting from 8 to scratch isn't possible. Hell, 12 to scratch is definitely possible -- we all have to start somewhere.

But that's not what this "argument" is about. It's about taking "anyone" to scratch, not someone who already loves the game and has been able to get himself to play better golf than 90% of the world all by himself (or with some coaching).

I challenge any golf instructor to take someone who, [b]as an adult[/b], struggles to catch and throw a ball, and turn that person into a scratch golfer. There are lots and lots of adults who struggle with simple catching and throwing. They lack gross motor control. Many golf instructors can go their entire lives and never have a single pupil that is truly uncoordinated come their way -- because people who are truly uncoordinated rarely attempt to play sports because they are not good at them. It's the old "self-selecting sample" problem. Golf instructors teach people who are a self-selecting group to begin with!

And the left-handed example is a perfect one to demonstrate that excelling at golf is largely aptitude-based. Are there people who can play close to scratch golf both left and right-handed? Yes there are, but anyone who thinks that [b]everyone[/b] is capable of playing scratch golf both left and right-handed is ... well ... deluding themselves.

Finally, I'm coming at this as a [b]macro[/b] discussion about inherent ability and its correlation to golf achievement. On a [b]micro[/b] level, everyone is best served by believing that anything is possible when it comes to their own achievement. I believe I am capable of amazing things in my own life, but I also gravitate to things that I know that I have an ability to do fairly well. I believe I can write a best-selling golf book some day; I believe I can win the U.S. Mid-Am (if I can fix my putting!); I believe I could be a great actor (if I set my mind to it). I believe that we can all do great things -- in our areas of skill.

We do not all, however, have [b]equal[/b] [b]apptitude[/b] in all areas. I challenge anyone to put forth a case disputing that hand-eye coordination is any different than sprinting ability or jumping ability, or ability to do high-level math. If you believe that the hand-eye coordination necessary to play scratch golf is somehow inherent in all of us, and that the right coach can bring it out in anyone, do you also believe that anyone could be a college-level sprinter? That anyone can do college calculus? That anyone six-feet tall can slam dunk a basketball?

If not, why not? If so, why do you believe that when it's (to my eyes) demonstrably false?

[johnnymac2201]

Obee, another world class post. I agree, after reading your posts, you could definitely write a best selling golf book.

[vman]

Obee another well written piece,followers of this thread should read through your posts as they're about all that needs to be said.Good work.

[CSagan]

Obee your daughter is 10 and you already think she could never make it to scratch? Have a little faith lol.

My mom retired a few years back and took up golf. She has probably played 10 times in her life. She has a bad back, neck problems and would whiff the ball like 5 times per round. She's also the most uncoordinated person I've ever seen. Zero hand eye skill.

She has worked with a good teacher for a couple years now and carries a 9 handicap. She can carry her driver over 200 yards thats the best part of her game. Her putting terrible and if she fixes that she could probably drop a couple more shots off her handicap.

So if a 55 year old woman can pick up the game with physical limitations and get to a 9, then I thinj y'all are overthinking the game.

Going pro is the special point imo. A scratch golfer is pretty mediocre conpared to a pga pro.

But whatever, we all think differently....obviously scratch is hard to get to ...but it shouldn't be touted as nearly impossible.

[Obee]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1364323846' post='6699749']
Obee your daughter is 10 and you already think she could never make it to scratch? Have a little faith lol.

My mom retired a few years back and took up golf. She has probably played 10 times in her life. She has a bad back, neck problems and would whiff the ball like 5 times per round. She's also the most uncoordinated person I've ever seen. Zero hand eye skill.

She has worked with a good teacher for a couple years now and carries a 9 handicap. She can carry her driver over 200 yards thats the best part of her game. Her putting terrible and if she fixes that she could probably drop a couple more shots off her handicap.

So if a 55 year old woman can pick up the game with physical limitations and get to a 9, then I thinj y'all are overthinking the game.

Going pro is the special point imo. A scratch golfer is pretty mediocre conpared to a pga pro.

But whatever, we all think differently....obviously scratch is hard to get to ...but it shouldn't be touted as nearly impossible.
[/quote]

My daughter is 21 now. :-)

Regarding your mom: Clearly you got your genes from her! You both are coordinated and athletic, your comments about her "uncoordinatedness" notwithstanding!!

;-)

[CSagan]

Haha fair enuff!

[MountainKing]

I was a scratch and better back in high school into my early 20's. It's a great goal, but it takes a ton of work on the range and even more work on the putting green & short game. Heck getting to a 1-2 handicap is difficult without the practice (but it can be done) and the difference between that and scratch is huge. There's really no other way to get there other than a lot of practice and playing and really pushing yourself. It's a heck of a goal to shoot for tho.

[ricar1610]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1364232373' post='6689881']
I hate giving an honest assesment in these threads only to run into people who haven't actually been at that level who say "YOU'RE JUST BEING NEGATIVE!"

I'm not being negative, I'm telling you the truth. If you want a bunch of smoke blown up your @ss about how anyone can do anything regardless of aptitude then how bout you put that in the thread title so people like me don't waste our time?

If all you had to do was want it really bad then there would be a hell of a lot more than 50,000 scratch golfers in the united states.
[/quote]

I agree with this. I started playing as a kid and played for fun through high school and college (baseball was the game for me then) and after college my buddy and I caught the "bug". We played everyday after work. I was 24 at the time and was at about a 16 HC (did not keep one then) - basically high 80's low 90's consistently. Just kept playing all the time with no goals in mind.

I started playing in small tournaments and Men's league stuff and got down to about a 6 or 7 when I was 31 or 32.

Then I started playing in State AM events, etc. when I got down to a 4-5.

I slowly got better but tournament play was always inconsistent.

I am 40 now and my HC just dipped below 1 (it is .9)

I just shot my 1st ever UNDER par round in a legitimate tournament - the Phoenix City Amateur...I was +7 for 54 holes. THis is the best I have ever played. I have shot under par many times but never in a tournament of this caliber.

My point - I play and practice all the time. I have good natural athletic ability and hand eye coordination. I play in 10-12 legitimate tournaments a year. I coach HS golf and get to play and hit balls all the time. I still have not broken the ZERO barrier. It is really hard. I am getting there, but it has taken 16 years of playing a lot of golf.

Can it happen for everyone - no it can't. For some it can but to go down really fast - especially at a 5 HC is really hard.

To be a scratch you basically cannot make many - if any - mistakes during a round. And if you do you have to have the ability to make 2-3 more birdies. Again - really hard - especially if you are pressing...

I don't think it is negative to say that some people just cannot get to a scratch - and that is ok.

My baseball coach at the UofA used to say about playing professional baseball - "if it was easy everyone would do it."

Aptitude is a huge factor and the timing of the golf swing - to be a scratch - is such a finely tuned thing.

I think it is great to try, but don't kill yourselves over getting to a scratch. It's just a number.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1364291769' post='6696201']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1364289942' post='6696171']
So if anyone with enough determination and hard work or 10,000 hours of focused practice can be a "master" at anything, could we all do the same thing left handed?

[/quote]

[b]Its off topic[/b] but still people seldom respect golf forum rules anyhow:
Yes.
If you belive otherwise you wont make it.
You already set a limitation for yourself even before you started doing it, I call that stupid.
If aptitude was a requisite it would be the case but there are several who been able to play both ways scratch level and some even better.
so the answer is yes and just shows how much prejudice and ignorance there is out there especially for golf.
Its hilarious how silly golf conversations are.

10.000 hours with deliberate practice knowing what to practice and how to go about it is a guideline, for some its 2000 hours and for others 30000 hours.
and you can do it from the left side if you want.
aptitude aside.

[b]On topic:[/b] Consistency is the key measurement and making scratch is about that, cant afford mistakes and once those are minimized then its more mental than anything else throwing the technique cruch out of the debate.. which then makes everyone uncomfortable as all they do is talk technique when its not about that.
[/quote]

My reply is in no way off topic. We're talking about what it takes to become a scratch and the conversation has evolved into discussing the relevance of aptitude. I'm saying you can't become a scratch without a high level of it and I'm trying to use the left handed situation as an example.

It personally took me 2 months to get to a 6 handicap when I switched to swinging left handed. The reason is because I have a high level of dexterity, not because I put in lots of time or hard work. I was already below scratch right handed when I did this experiment.

Most of my professional buddies are more likely to wiff the ball all together swinging left handed than hit it well. I'm just a freak that way. I just have high aptitude swinging either way.

Not recognizing that natural ability plays at least some part is out right delusion in my opinion.

Why does this argument apply to everything else in life but for some reason, people think golf is different. A 60 IQ CANNOT get into Harvard. A 4 foot tall man cannot slam dunk, a hairy troll cannot win Miss Universe.

We all have our strengths and the trick is finding out what you're naturally good at and THEN put in all of the time and hard work to get better. You can't just decide to be great at something. If you're average, hard work and effort will make you better than average. It won't make you great.

[juliette91]

What an interesting discussion. Passions run high, we all love the game. I've played with many many different people throughout a long golf
involvement and I don't see why there is a big argument about this idea that pretty much anyone can get to scratch with the right teachers, equipment and time.
I know one of the threads on the web is this guy who is trying to do just that. Never played golf at all in his life, wasn't an athlete, etc. and now is a 5-7 handicapper
with eyes on scratch and better. All this in about a year I think.

Still, when you look at his first videos you can see he has athleticism if not any technique. In my opinion there has to be some core competence, whether you want to call it a sense of balance,
hand/eye coordination or something else, because I've seen many many people whose swings are just so god awful that getting them to shoot under 80 would be a miracle.

Of course there's no agreement on a baseline measurement that would in and of itself settle this issue. So onward we go...

[Sean2]

Okay, given what you gentlemen have articulated, then why are most golf courses set up to play AS IF everyone is a low handicap golfer? I see more people walking off the 18 green dejected than smiling. The average golfer feels compelled to play from further back then he should, facing a layout that is riddled with hazards, forced carries, and par 4's he has no chance of getting to in regulation with a well struck drive and a 3-wood.

Even if our intrepid golfer moves up, the game is still riddled with hazards both figurative and literal. Laugh at me if you want, but it is my contention that if the average male drives the golf ball around 200 yards, then he should probably be playing a course no longer then 5700 yards. Even then, many of today's modern set-ups will present a challenge.

However, if you throw in aptitude (and let's say our average golfer is a bit lacking there...which most of us are...what chance does he have have against a course at 6500 yards and a slope of 135?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard: "I hate this game." "I suck." "Why did I even come out today," and the like, I'd be wealthy.

WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY for a lot of golfers. Because, as some of you said: aptitude.

I don't know gentlemen, I think the game could be a lot more fun for a lot more people and it has nothing to do with aptitude. I think courses could be designed to be less difficult (older courses can still be played "on the ground". I think the PGA, USGA, PGA professionals, and Touring pros alike could make a seriously concerted effort to encourage people to Tee it Forward. Where there is no "shame" associated with playing from 5500 yards or what have you. Where it's actually seen as the smart thing to do.

What are the benefits?

--More fun
--Pace of play
--Lower scores
--Growth of the game?

Just some random thoughts from a low-middle HI with little aptitude (except short-game and putting). :-)

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1364321019' post='6699337']
[color=#0000ff]Statements like that need to be taken with a grain of salt when they come from someone who makes their living off teaching. Its not right or wrong, it's just a sales pitch like any other.

As far as me not knowing better, I played D1 golf just like he did (although not on as good a team as he did), I played the mini tours just like he did, I've played with tour players just like he has, and I've worked with multiple top 100 teachers just like he has.

Yes he's older, and yes he continued his career in golf after deciding not to pursue a playing career any longer where I chose to do something else, but to suggest that he's all knowing and I'm I'm no position to dispute his sales pitch is a complete fallacy.

Can he get people to play better? I have no doubt that he can. Is he the only teacher capable of that? Far from it. Can he get anyone who comes to see him to play to a "championship caliber?" no, I don't believe that he can. I think that there are a lot of people out there for whom simply shooting in the 80's would be an enormous accomplishment. I don't think it's fair to minimize that accomplishment by running around yelling "ANY IDIOT CAN GET TO SCRATCH AS LONG AS THEY GO TO THE RIGHT TEACHER AND BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND PUT BLUEBERRIES IN THEIR OATMEAL EVERY MORNING!"

This whole thing from slicefixers followers on this site continues to be way out of hand. I think you need to tone it down in this thread. Wanna share an opinion of what every golfer can do? Fine, I have no problem with that. But if you want to keep screaming a baseless and unquantifiable opinion that you are presenting as fact at the top of your lungs at me I'm gonna take issue with it.[/color]

Hey Thrill, not sure why your panties are in a bunch? I am a Slicefixer guy and I have agreed [u][i][b]with you [/b][/i][/u]throughout this thread. Are you ignoring my posts?
[/quote]

Not ignoring you at all, the comments you quoted to are in response to my resolved debate with Csagan, nothing more than that.

I'm not trying to disrespect slicefixer, or Csagan for that matter, I do respect the work he's put in to improve.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='doglover72' timestamp='1364317823' post='6698835']
Read Paper Tiger. Terrific book. Author spends a year trying to make it to Q School and goes from a 12 or so to a plus handicap in that time. Of course he had no other obligations besides golf, the best coaches, equipment, etc. And even with that plus handicap I seem to recall that when he took it to tournaments he still shot in 80s. Playing to a low handicap or scratch on your home course with friends is one thing - doing so in a tournament where you have to putt everything is another.
[/quote]

I read the book a long time ago but If I'm not mistaken, the golfer was previously a low single-digit and had given up the game for a few years. (That's the book about the guy who worked with Suttie, correct?)

[sethdavidsdad]

Interesting comments about the euro Ryder cup captain just now on golf channel tavistock cup coverage. Said Paul was a six handicap that walked on to a small college in San Diego. Sad he couldn't beat anybody and they never thought he would amount to anything. Fits this conversation perfectly. Hard work and dedication can make you better.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1364352331' post='6703677']
Interesting comments about the euro Ryder cup captain just now on golf channel tavistock cup coverage. Said Paul was a six handicap that walked on to a small college in San Diego. Sad he couldn't beat anybody and they never thought he would amount to anything. Fits this conversation perfectly. Hard work and dedication can make you better.
[/quote]

Absolutely hard work/dedication, etc are all vitally important...but so is aptitude...Paul clearly had some aptitude and we don't know what kind of "6" he was...meaning...some people are at a 6 and are 90% of the way to their max potential...some people are at a 6 and are raw and have only used 10% of their potential....so it's kind of hard to know with Paul, but nonetheless, there are a ton of "6" HC's who are decent HS players and never do much better than that...

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1364352692' post='6703737']
[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1364352331' post='6703677']
Interesting comments about the euro Ryder cup captain just now on golf channel tavistock cup coverage. Said Paul was a six handicap that walked on to a small college in San Diego. Sad he couldn't beat anybody and they never thought he would amount to anything. Fits this conversation perfectly. Hard work and dedication can make you better.
[/quote]

Absolutely hard work/dedication, etc are all vitally important...but so is aptitude...Paul clearly had some aptitude and we don't know what kind of "6" he was...meaning...some people are at a 6 and are 90% of the way to their max potential...some people are at a 6 and are raw and have only used 10% of their potential....so it's kind of hard to know with Paul, but nonetheless, there are a ton of "6" HC's who are decent HS players and never do much better than that...
[/quote]

I would throw being teachable in with aptitude. If you aren't willing to listen and change you aren't going to get there. Most aren't willing to lose their $2 weekend game long enough to improve their game. Others are just to stuburn to listen. That's why you hear of these 12-20 handicappers saying they took a lesson but the guy just screwed me up. That's why they don't get better. They arent teachable or wiling to change.

[Obee]

If they were talking about Paul McGinley being a six, that is an absolute load of crap. I played a Golden State Tour amateur event with him in 1989 or 90ish. He shot 71 at Shadowridge and won the event. He was no damn six at that time. People love to embellish. Unbelievable.

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1364371488' post='6704693']
If they were talking about Paul McGinley being a six, that is an absolute load of crap. I played a Golden State Tour amateur event with him in 1989 or 90ish. He shot 71 at Shadowridge and won the event. He was no damn six at that time. People love to embellish. Unbelievable.
[/quote]

So, your saying dont believe what we hear on TV only what we read on the Internet. Haha

[johnnymac2201]

Sounds to me like Paul was your typical sandbagger.

[iteachgolf]

Sandbagging in events where you don't get strokes? Sandbagging in order to have to walk on a college team?

[johnnymac2201]

If he really had an official, established hcp. of 6, and was playing these kind of tournaments and getting on as a walk on, then yes. Even though it was just meant as a joke, I would have to say anybody winning an event of that calibre, on what was probably a pretty difficult setup with a 71, with a 6 handicap, would be the definition of sandbagger.

I tend to agree with Obee, that the 6 hcp. remark, was probably an embellishment.

[iteachgolf]

How can you sandbag in non handicap events. You can't sandbag in college events either. It's obvious you don't understand how these events or college golf works. In 1990 he would have been 24. He played on the Walker Cup team in 1991. He wasn't a 6 in 1990. Doesn't mean he wasn't a 6 handicap in 1984 at 18 when he would have started college, which is when he would have walked on. 5-6 years makes a huge difference.

[johnnymac2201]

I'm not sure when he started college, do see that he already had a degree in marketing from a college in Dublin before coming to the states. Also, that he won the Irish Amatuer in 89 and the Irish youth amateur in 88. Could also be a case of the way the European handicap system works, maybe the last time he played in a tournament that counted towards his handicap, it was a 6.

There's plenty of sandbagging that goes on away from official golf circles. Plenty of big money guys looking for someone the can back in money games. A player like McGinley, sporting an official 6 handicap, would be a good bet. Don't know how much of that kind of stuff goes on in the States nowadays, but back in the 70's and 80's, there's were big bucks changing hands daily on South Texas courses.

[pingB]

Anyone can be scratch if you practice putting hard core. If you can sink every 6-8 footer thrown at you you can be as good as Tiger.

[Obee]

My recollection was that McGinley was 19 or so when I played with him, but that may not be the case. I think the earliest Golden State Tour amateur events I played in were in 1989, so my recollection is probably off. I only remember Doug Ives (the guy who ran the GST) saying what an impressive player he was. I was paired with him, and I'll never forget that he hit a persimmon driver off the deck on one of the par 5's and knocked it up by the green for an easy up-and-down for birdie.

I practiced that shot at my home course the next two weeks! LOL!

[CSagan]

[quote name='pingB' timestamp='1364399782' post='6706937']
Anyone can be scratch if you practice putting hard core. If you can sink every 6-8 footer thrown at you you can be as good as Tiger.
[/quote]

Haha. I'm sure Tiger will spot you all your putts within 10 feet. Putting helps, but there's a lot of mileage to cover to get to the green.

[rusty cup]

I am not quite at scratch yet (1.2), but the way I approached it was to become a par 3 specialist, as soon as I did that, my handicap really started to improve.

[ej002]

Blades with .5 tipped c-tapers + txxxx tp head with a tipped xx tourspec 8.3 = scratch in no time.

You're all welcome!

[Chafer]

After further review of this topic...here is what i believe it takes to be a scratch golfer. And combination of any four would do.

Be really good at life, in general.
Be really good at golf
Have plenty of time to play
Have plenty of cash to play
Be 18-20
Have 10 years of serious golf under your belt
Eat more pizza. (I added this because not one person would argue the benefits of pizza)

Discuss.