Rounds with a Vintage Bag

[HoganApexBlades]

HC, I loved reading about the near "PAR" experience on your back 9 adventure. I felt like your caddie, carrying the bag, reading the greens, tending the pins and watching you plot out strategy while you contemplated your next shot in order to shoot your target of 36. Congrats on a great round of 39-37=76!

[jonnygrouville]

I don't get to brag about the amazing stuff I find in goodwill, so...

Had a couple of rounds up in Scotland with Joe Powell driver, Powerbilt fairway woods, Mizuno blades and Slazenger eaglet putter. Didn't hit it that well around Loch Lomond, but this is a simply stunning golf course...

[attachment=2271633:IMG_3484.JPG]

This was a driver minced down the last, into the breeze. Didn't draw as much as I wanted and left me a two iron in. Managed to sneak it on though and made my par. Very satisfying.

Troon is not only a great golf course I have been lucky to play a few times as well, it is also a great persimmon track. Not everything is a driver and there are some uber-tight driving holes around the turn. Made very satisfying pars at the Postage Stamp and down the Railway hole. Unfortunately lost a couple of balls not missing fairways by very much, so didn't score that great. Fifteen nice pars in there though.

Not exactly a shock that I had fun using old kit around two of the best courses in the world eh?

EOB (End Of Brag)

[ScooterMcTavish]

Only one pic Johnny Jr.?

Us colonialists and commonwealthers need much more than the one admittedly gorgeous looking shot.

Interesting too as we always end up coming back to how much we all enjoy playing vintage kit on vintage courses. Maybe Froth was right last year, and someone needs to go back to making a wound ball (be it covered with balata or urethane).

Hmmmmm.

[oldschoolrocker]

Jonny,
Around here we consider that sharing, not bragging, and thanks for sharing that splendid post.

[super20dan]

i have to ask-did you find the need for a troon grind ram sand wedge while playing there?. is a ultra low bounce sw needed on this course or was the ram troon grind wedge just marketing

[dbuck47]

Thanks for sharing jonny

[ScooterMcTavish]

I have to hand it to Uncle Bob - He called the Burke Coronation (PGA on top) as a sleeper driver.

He was 100% correct.

The driver was the least of my problems tonight at league, and the Burke was fantastic. Like I discussed in a previous post, the vintage is about the median of my modern drivers. Tonight, the Burke was as equal to my modern driver distance-wise, but I played every driver shot from a good location.

Randy, I may not have found Mjolnir, but I found something that puts me in no worse spots than my modern driver does.

I may be having an epiphany.

And I have good karma. Just wish I could hit a proper draw in 30 MPH winds......

[oldschoolrocker]

Scott,
Glad Uncle Bob was able to help you find a proper driver to parlay with your irons.
That wind, she bestows a bit of trickery on a round of golf, but that's part of the charm. Golf rounds are like snowflakes, no two the exact same.

[Blade Junkie]

Excellent stuff Johnny ! 15 Pars in one round, with classic kit on a top course which you've never played before ? You must be one hell of a golfer! Well played indeed !


I have one of those Eaglet putters - came with a very nice leather grip, and original putter cover in red/white/green leather !

Although similar style, it is definitely harder to putt with than a Bullseye or Golden Goose for me ... so respect from the Blade Junkie !

[Soloman1]

My thanks to all of you for the great stories and posts.

[birly-shirly]

Great stuff Johnny. I've had one outing on Troon, and I can match your pars on the Postage Stamp and Railway. Unfortunately, there endeth my brag...

15 pars? That's great shooting. Of course, the members' tees probably haven't moved much if any since persimmon was common currency but I don't imagine the course is playing in any way short, given the spring we've had. Well played sir.

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1402521842' post='9475857']
i have to ask-did you find the need for a troon grind ram sand wedge while playing there?. is a ultra low bounce sw needed on this course or was the ram troon grind wedge just marketing
[/quote]

Funny you ask. I've had this argument a few times with internet experts who push "using the bounce" as a no-exceptions, all purpose, all conditions pitch shot. But in Ram's case, I'm pretty sure they were more interested in the associations with Watson's Open victory at Troon than anything else. Think of the way in which Hogan branded their latter wedges Colonial and Riviera.

The Rams are great clubs though. The only lob wedge I can stand to put in the bag is a Watson grind with maybe 4* bounce and a narrow, narrow sole. Funnily enough, it lives in the spare bag that I keep down in Troon. But ironically, it's not badged as a "Troon" grind.

[jonnygrouville]

[sub][size=4]Troon is a strong contender in my favourite links list, a truly wonderful course. The first six holes are more technical old school links like Deal, the next six are about placement off the tee as you’re up amongst the gorse, like Aldeburgh (one of the best driving courses you could ever hope to play), then you have the last six opening your shoulders, ripping back to the clubhouse which feel more like Georges with the occasional hint of Rye. [/size][/sub]
[sub][size=4] [/size][/sub]
[sub][size=4]Troon grinds? Marketing, I think. I’ve played lots of seaside golf with lots of different wedges and have never found aggressively ground wedges working better than others. Deep bunkers with sand straight from the beach – I’ll take some bounce thanks. Don’t think my pitching wedge has a lot of bounce and that is the favoured club from off the greens, then anything up to six iron for the crafty veteran running shots.[/size][/sub]
[sub][size=4] [/size][/sub]
[sub][size=4]Driving well off white tees, should be making pars! Popped back to the championship tees for a few around there where they have made changes. Actually like what they are doing in respect of changes for the Open in a few years. [/size][/sub]
[sub][size=4] [/size][/sub]
[sub][size=4]Nice to see they have chosen to play the US Open around an Open course this year! Looks like a British sand-belt course. Still don’t like people going way off line onto pine needles and having a perfectly playable shot, but loving the old school look of the place. Butch Harmon was saying that he preferred seeing rough you could play from. Even with “US Open rough”, they could play from it. And get spin! Pretty sure I am not a sadist, but I like seeing chip outs, I like seeing people punished for poor shots and courses that make hitting fairways a premium. [/size][/sub]

[super20dan]

thanks for clearing that up. i also have had "discussions" about bounce with many here too. for my liking less is more. my lob wedge could double as a razor-lol.

[oldschoolrocker]

Jonny,
As a born and bred southern yank, my how it would rattle the bones of my old southern ancestors to put the words southern and yank side by side, let alone in the same sentence, but I regress:
The old parkland style tree lined fairways that abound in my neck of the woods do put an accuracy on driving to some degree. If one plays it down, fore goes the foot wedge and plays the game as intended, then off the fairway and you will be sure to find yourself a few times stimeyed behind a living oak, or a gaggle of pines.
If you have the guts and guile you may be able to manufacture a shot that advances the ball and if not the wise choice is to take your medicine.
The thorn in my side lies with most of the area around the greens. There are courses that put extra premium it seems on green side bunkers where the term side would be a misnomer because the trap is more of a frontal moat guarding entrance to the castle. This, as you lads are aware limits the choice of playability and shot selection.
Let me go on record that I am not a fan of target golf. I see this more and more in the newer designed courses around the area.
I have gotten off point, ah yes, what I really wanted to say was I disagree with "rough we can play from" and certainly agree with driving accuracy being a lost art. Now, that said, it does give one the chance and challenge of conjuring up a Seve moment if one has the stones and skill to pull it off.
What a great game this enigma called golf.

[dbuck47]

Thanks, Jonny for the great descriptions and OSR for the ode to parkland golf.

Yesterday evening I had an enjoyable nine and shot a 42 in spite of a come-apart 7 on a hole I should par 4 times out of 5. The course is 6338 yards, par 72, 70.4/123. The front which I played, is the easier side, 3092 yards and par 36. Yesterday, it probably did not play quite to the 3092. The tee placements were a little forward, but on the other hand the soft conditions -we have had rain about 5 days out of the last 7--and some of the pin placements off set the shorter tees some.

Weapons of choice yesterday were PING Eye2 3 and 5 woods, Wilson Staff Tour Blade irons, Wilson Staff JP pitching wedge, and a Wilson Geo Low Original 600 putter. I didn't take a driver. A Wilson Staff FG-17 1 iron was along for the ride, but stayed in the bag. The ball was a Titleist DT SoLo which by the way has seen about 36 holes.

Tee to green, I was swinging pretty good for me, and did not feel at all hampered by the vintage kit. I had three 3putts, but they weren't the putter's fault; mostly my inability to adjust to the green speed which was about 10-20% slower in most cases than these greens usually are, due to the soft conditions.

One of my playing buddies yesterday kept commenting on the sound when I hit a good one off the PING 3 wood. It wasn't quite the crack you'd hear echoing through the pines of Augusta during the 86 Masters, but a good sound still, and a reminder of one of the reasons we like these old sticks.

[oldschoolrocker]

Simply brilliant dbuck. Would love to hear more about that fg17 1 iron. Actually, I would love to try and hit it, not sure what the outcome would be.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I've got the ace to complete my' 83 Haigs. It's an underrated club IMO. I can get it up sorta high off the tee, but it takes a heck of a strike to spin it up off the turf, or the right ball I would assume. Mostly it's a nice lay up club off the tee, you can more or less guarantee 200+ and no trouble if you are swinging it half decent. Of course the last round I pulled it a bunch of times and probably got around 300 yards...total combined .

What it's really good at is advancing the ball when you have to keep it low or can't get a full swing.. A couple rounds ago I got one of those magic saves, I had to punch out at 45 degrees and slice it onto the back left of a deep green (back pin) from jail 120+ out. I suppose you could manufacture that shot with another club but I bet it would have been hard to keep the ball down and get it to move like that, at least for me. It really is a great rescue club.

[dbuck47]

OSR,

The fg17 as you know is the successor to my Tour Blades and very similar. I originally got 2-PW and decided I wanted a 1 iron, and that is what I found new at the time.

I can hit it maybe 4 times out of 6, and by hit it, I mean it is in the air and goes in the general direction and distance I intended, ha! I think I have really hit it once-a nice medium height draw that went on target about 240. I usually get 200-215ish. Last year I was at the range and happened upon a Bridgestone ball fitting. I had not signed up, but they had some empty spots, and I used the rep's driver as I had only brought the 1 iron and a couple of other irons. After the fitting, he asked to see the 1 iron, and I asked him if he'd like to hit it. Funny thing, (wink, wink) the balls look a little different coming of the club as opposes to when I hit it! He hit about 6 and they would start out low and rise to a nice apex with a little baby draw.

I posted a pic last year of my Staffs, but the one iron is obscured or missing in the picture. I will try to post one soon.

[dbuck47]

Even though I can't really do it justice, over the years I have hit some of my most pleasing shots with that old stick, though.

[birly-shirly]

I've got to say, the more I play persimmons, the better I like them. It definitely helps to be playing the yellows rather than the whites (which are reserved for sanctioned competitions anyway) at my course - but I snuck in 9 holes yesterday evening and took the Hogans rather than the Titleist 975s. I wasn't hitting the ball especially well. Not in a "passive brag" sense - but a genuine heely cut sense. I'm sure I was losing some distance on the mishits - but what struck me was the accuracy. In 9 holes, I hit 2 balls into the first cut and the rest were in the fairway. I didn't have a single second-shot where I felt I was being harshly penalised in the sense of having to hit from a difficult lie, or an obstructed view of the green. That's just so unusual for me, compared to hitting metal drivers where mishits can soar into deeper trouble - and I generally need 2 hands to count the cost of my driving over 18 holes.

I'm loving the persimmons and will definitely play them more when I'm out on my own, or in social games. I'm still slightly wary of taking wooden woods into a competitive outing - in that I don't want an opponent or playing partner feeling that I'm not taking the match sufficiently seriously. It makes me want to experiment with some of the early, small, steel headed metalwoods. I've got a stash of original Burners and the early Hogan metalwoods. I've got no issues whatsoever with an equipment snob looking down their nose at my bag, and I don't mind anyone thinking that I'm poorly equipped with gear that's past its sell-by date - but any metalwood is probably just the right side of the line that (for most golfers) demarcates the poorly turned out from the downright eccentric or inverted snob.

[oldschoolrocker]

The old wood grows on you doesn't it BS? I know my accuracy has increased markedly since I went to wood and steel. I still have days when no fault of the club I am not as accurate as I wish, but these usually come on the heels of me tinkering with my swing wanting "just a few more yards." When I get the thoughts out of my head and just PLAY and MY tempo is free then I lose nothing in terms of final score by putting the woods in play. I find it so much easier to find my tempo with wood and steel as opposed to graphite and composite. I have taken a 975d head and put it on a. 43.5 inch graphite shaft, added a couple of strips of lead tape to the head and found this to be quite the fairway finder WHEN I swing it with the same tempo as I do using the woods. I don't really gain enough distance to make it that much more of an advantage. Maybe 3 to 5 mph SS difference when I put theory to practice.
Without waxing poetic and getting into a long drawn out dissertation I feel the vintage gear has made me a better all around golfer. I know it has rekindled my love for the game and increased my joy.
Good luck.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1402917751' post='9505051']
[b]I've got to say, the more I play persimmons, the better I like them[/b]. It definitely helps to be playing the yellows rather than the whites (which are reserved for sanctioned competitions anyway) at my course - but I snuck in 9 holes yesterday evening and took the Hogans rather than the Titleist 975s. I wasn't hitting the ball especially well. Not in a "passive brag" sense - but a genuine heely cut sense. [b]I'm sure I was losing some distance on the mishits - but what struck me was the accuracy. In 9 holes, I hit 2 balls into the first cut and the rest were in the fairway. I didn't have a single second-shot where I felt I was being harshly penalised in the sense of having to hit from a difficult lie, or an obstructed view of the green. That's just so unusual for me, compared to hitting metal drivers where mishits can soar into deeper trouble - and I generally need 2 hands to count the cost of my driving over 18 holes.[/b]

[/quote]

I'm not sure if I'm poorly turned out, downright eccentric, or an inverted snob (or some combination of the three? lol) but you perfectly summarized why I prefer to play persimmons.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1402917751' post='9505051']
I'm still slightly wary of taking wooden woods into a competitive outing - in that I don't want an opponent or playing partner feeling that I'm not taking the match sufficiently seriously.
[/quote]

Hey B-S, I do suffer from this affliction as well at times. Last year, I started a thread about using vintage on a business outing, and was concerned that bringing vintage may send the wrong message. Not only did I post the lowest score in our group, but one of my playing partners is now enjoying the merits of vintage himself. So I guess it turned into a win/win.

I think that if you play what you like, your partners may look at it as an oddity. However, most also seem to want to give it a swing, and all love the muted crack that it makes when hit. And I find there is even a bit of psychological advantage too...."Wow, you play that?" is spoken, while "Wow, you must be pretty good" is thought.

For me, I enjoyed my 975D as a transition club between my toaster and my persimmon, but I feel that if I can stick to the persimmon, it will make me a better golfer. Plus (as Randy pointed out), it is better for my golfing karma.

[oldschoolrocker]

BS,
I had to look up the differences between your white and yellow tees and figure out why you couldn't play the whites if you were so inclined. What is the usual yardage differential between the two?
Is there a reason that your courses do this bait and switch advertising?
I think in all honesty the majority of players in the states play from tees that are too long for their ability, but, I have yet to see a course mandate where you can tee off from, some recommendations, but no mandates.
Back to the color scheme. Our whites would be considered the member tees, with the yellow (gold) the seniors. There is some disparity between locales as to the blues and blacks as to which is " the championship set."

[dbuck47]

Yep, my home course is like that. Blue is the tips at 7035, white is 6338, gold is 5457, and red is 4849.

The whites are what I play, whether I am using vintage or more modern. It works well for either for me as there are only 2 par fours over 400, and they are seldom set up to full length. There are a couple of par fours that are 295 and 321, but both are hill to hill with about a 25-30 foot drop to the fairway and back up, so no sneaking a drive on for me-it would be all carry due to the slope. I almost always play for the flat part of the fairway regardless of implements in use.

The blues change the character with only 2 par fours under 400, and only 1 par 3 under 190, depending on how they set the tees and pins.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1402929340' post='9506145']

I think in all honesty the majority of players in the states play from tees that are too long for their ability, but, I have yet to see a course mandate where you can tee off from, some recommendations, but no mandates.

[/quote]

Agreed. Last month I was walking 18 by myself when a couple of college kids caught up with me while I was putting out on 14. Since they were in a cart I sat down on the 15 tee and waited to let them thru. Of course, they were hitting from the back tees, 7040 yards with a slope of 143, so I had to get up and move, lol. Both of them swung like Paul Bunyan trying to fell an oak with a single blow. Predictably, each missed the fairway. One hit the cart path and bounded into the next fairway. He cursed and exclaimed that he had already done that 5 other times that day (out of 11 driving holes to that point, mind you).

I recognized one of them at the driving range a few days later I asked him what they shot. He said they both shot in the high 80's but I suspect that if they counted all their strokes neither broke 90.

I remember when you had to get permission from the pro to play the back tees. I guess that went out of style with persimmons.

[birly-shirly]

Hi OSR - I'd say it's pretty common here to have only 3 sets of tees: white (medal) tees, yellow (off the boxes) and red (ladies). At my course, the difference between yellow and white is 230 yards, but at other courses I've seen 300 or 400 yards difference. Occasionally a course will have a set (or maybe just one or two on particular holes) of championship tees.

The white tees are normally reserved for club competitions - that's not a quirk of my home course. The yellow tees, or tee boxes (of whatever colour) are forward and considered the normal tees for regular play. There's no real discretion involved at most courses. I played the ryder cup venue last autumn and I think they offer a range of yardages - but they probably see themselves as catering to a different, and probably tourist, market. I'd guess golf is maybe typically cheaper here - and there's less of a maintenance budget.

Also, I don't know that yardage is a huge issue here. There are junior courses, but I don't think I've ever seen junior tees. Ditto for senior tees. My impressions though are that courses here are generally shorter than many courses in the states. Maybe because we're mostly at sea level. My course is 6000yds off the white tees. That doesn't sound long in internet yards, but the consensus is that the course plays fairly hard relative to other courses in the area, barring the big championship links out on the east Lothian coast. Weather is usually going to be a course's primary defence - and wind and ground conditions will have any given hole playing dramatically different at different times of year, and sometimes from round to round.

[oldschoolrocker]

Yes HC, as have a lot of other things gone out of style in our society these days. I could go on and on, and not all of them related to golf.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1402926287' post='9505797'] [quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1402917751' post='9505051'] I'm still slightly wary of taking wooden woods into a competitive outing - in that I don't want an opponent or playing partner feeling that I'm not taking the match sufficiently seriously. [/quote] [...] I think that if you play what you like, your partners may look at it as an oddity. However, most also seem to want to give it a swing, and all love the muted crack that it makes when hit. [b]And I find there is even a bit of psychological advantage too...."Wow, you play that?" is spoken, while "Wow, you must be pretty good" is thought. [/b]For me, I enjoyed my 975D as a transition club between my toaster and my persimmon, but I feel that if I can stick to the persimmon, it will make me a better golfer. Plus (as Randy pointed out), it is better for my golfing karma. [/quote]

Well, I'm probably overthinking things but if I'm completely honest, I'm sure that part of my reluctance is down to the fineness of the line between "Wow, you must be pretty good." and "Wow, you must [i]think you're [/i]pretty good."

I really like the 975D too - but I feel that for all the good drives that I hit with it, there are too many spectacularly bad shots that go soaring into horrible spots. I want my miscues to go quickly to ground and sit in the first cut, 30 or 40 yards back but not out of play. I've also noticed a shot with the 975 that seems to spin like fury but goes nowhere. I don't recall hitting the equivalent shot with persimmon. Maybe, on equally bad swings, the wood delivers a horrible, barely airborne, diving slice that's too ugly to even consider the spin rate. Or maybe I'd be better with a lower lofted 975, which I suspect both launches and spins higher than the solid blocks.

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1402932232' post='9506479']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1402929340' post='9506145']
I think in all honesty the majority of players in the states play from tees that are too long for their ability, but, I have yet to see a course mandate where you can tee off from, some recommendations, but no mandates.

[/quote]

Agreed. Last month I was walking 18 by myself when a couple of college kids caught up with me while I was putting out on 14. Since they were in a cart I sat down on the 15 tee and waited to let them thru. Of course, they were hitting from the back tees, 7040 yards with a slope of 143, so I had to get up and move, lol. Both of them swung like Paul Bunyan trying to fell an oak with a single blow. Predictably, each missed the fairway. One hit the cart path and bounded into the next fairway. He cursed and exclaimed that he had already done that 5 other times that day (out of 11 driving holes to that point, mind you).

I recognized one of them at the driving range a few days later I asked him what they shot. He said they both shot in the high 80's but I suspect that if they counted all their strokes neither broke 90.

I remember when you had to get permission from the pro to play the back tees. I guess that went out of style with persimmons.
[/quote]

I remember during my high school team golf days when two of the Par 5's at our home course had a separate tee box 40-50 yards behind the normal tees coming out of a chute of trees. We would play them just to get our testosterone flowing. The tee shot looked entirely different from that vantage point and the targeted driving area obviously looked much smaller to the human eye. The holes took on a total transformation and you felt like you needed to hit a booming drive with your wooden "wood" persimmon driver with a balata ball just to reach the fairway. The cracking sound off the face of a persimmon driver was like the sound of a gunshot in the forest. It echoed all around and the sight of a well struck drive rising into the air like it was a fighter jet launching from an aircraft carrier was a sight to behold. The ball would rise in what seemed to be 20 foot elevations till it reached its apex and then ran for 25-30 yards. You just stood there in awe watching what a near perfect golf shot in action looked like. Now, all I see is that 325+ yard pop-up instead of that 275+ yard rising line drive and I all hear is that annoying "clink, clink, clink" noise instead of the sweet "click, click, click" music...

Now you know why I play vintage woods.