Match play final.. Was I hustled?

[vbb]

I'd be skeptical too. I am usually within 5 strokes of my index either direction, giving me about a 10 stroke spread. I think most people are probably this way. To come up 10 strokes better than your handicap under the pressure of a club championship is so amazing it's a bit unrealistic. I can't out shoot my index by 10 strokes under the most ideal conditions (playing in a low pressure match with some buddies) much less a tournament.

[sheppy335]

I would look at it this way. Be proud you go tot finals, that is something to hang your hat one.

As for loosing to a former 9 Hdcp ehh take it you didn't play your best and he did smile and look forward to next year.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381115037' post='7963253']
I think it is possible. I played yesterday with a guy that was a 12 and he said his best round every on our course was 71, Par is 70. He had a chance on the last hole, middle of the fairway, 100 yards away, and plugged it in a bunker. Made bogey. He said he was bummed. I could see him doing it and I could also see him being a 12. Granted, shouldn't be happening often, but a 12 could be a couple over for 18 holes I think, and if he was once a 9, he for sure could be a couple over for 18. Just because he was 1 over for 13 doesn't mean he didn't have a couple of doubles ahead of him once the choke factor starts coming into play around hole 16 when he realizes he has a chance to shoot his best round etc etc.
[/quote]

lol are you seriously trying to justify this?

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1381119565' post='7963549']
I'd be skeptical too. I am usually within 5 strokes of my index either direction, giving me about a 10 stroke spread. I think most people are probably this way. To come up 10 strokes better than your handicap under the pressure of a club championship is so amazing it's a bit unrealistic. I can't out shoot my index by 10 strokes under the most ideal conditions (playing in a low pressure match with some buddies) much less a tournament.
[/quote]

Exactly.

The odds of a 12 handicap beating his index by 10 strokes is 83,400 to 1.

[QEight]

Ireland is under Congu (I guess) and R&A. Under R&A you can not play stroke play when playing a match. Under Congu, I bet you can not enter match play score for handicap. So that is why the opponent could not have entered his score for HC.

[larrybud]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381143773' post='7963879']
[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1381119565' post='7963549']
I'd be skeptical too. I am usually within 5 strokes of my index either direction, giving me about a 10 stroke spread. I think most people are probably this way. To come up 10 strokes better than your handicap under the pressure of a club championship is so amazing it's a bit unrealistic. I can't out shoot my index by 10 strokes under the most ideal conditions (playing in a low pressure match with some buddies) much less a tournament.
[/quote]

Exactly.

The odds of a 12 handicap beating his index by 10 strokes is 83,400 to 1.
[/quote]

Which doesn't mean it's impossible.

Even someone wins the lotto every once in a while, at 200 million to 1 odds.

Need to look at the guy's scoring history to know what's going on.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381098332' post='7961937']
I played our club match play final today and got beaten 6&5, a shock to the system to say the least. The guy is off 12 so I had to give him 7 shots, he was 9 just last year. Anyway he was +1 gross for 13 holes and beat me out the gate!! 2 bogeys, 1 birdie and 10 pars. I'd have to be -4 to just keep up with that. Should I be annoyed because I feel like I did well to get to the final competing against higher handicap golfers in my previous matches and to only be trounced today by a guy who's clearly better than 12 and said he played the golf of his life. Should I hold my hands up and accept the better player won or be aggrieved with a clearly false handicap player beating me?
[/quote]

Some times you just run into a buzzsaw.

In the World Matchplay in 1998, Mark O'Meara beat Vijay Singh 13&11 in a 36 hole match. O'Meara clearly was not that much better than Singh over the course of their careers...but he was that much better THAT DAY.

The guy clearly had the talent to be a low-handicap player...and if he's a nine (and has fallen back to 12)...then getting hot and shooting +1 13 holes isn't unreasonable. Sounds like you just had the bad luck of being the guy standing in the middle of the road, when that bus came down it.

Unless you have specific evidence that he was padding his handicap, let it go, and move on.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381143773' post='7963879']
[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1381119565' post='7963549']
I'd be skeptical too. I am usually within 5 strokes of my index either direction, giving me about a 10 stroke spread. I think most people are probably this way. To come up 10 strokes better than your handicap under the pressure of a club championship is so amazing it's a bit unrealistic. I can't out shoot my index by 10 strokes under the most ideal conditions (playing in a low pressure match with some buddies) much less a tournament.
[/quote]

Exactly.

The odds of a 12 handicap beating his index by 10 strokes is 83,400 to 1.
[/quote]

I shot my first sub-80 round as a 13 index....and beat my index by 10 strokes.

Low probability is NOT the same NO PROBABILITY.

Especially since this is a guy who has already shown he could play to a lower handicap than where he is currently.

[vtnerf]

He also had 6 holes to blow up and "get back" to his typical 12 handicap. Over 18 holes, a 12 is going to post some pars and even a birdie here and there. He's also going to have some blow-up holes. Just so happened that he strung them together in the first 13 on that day. Maybe he would have continued and posted a career round, maybe he would have blown up and gotten close to his typical low-mid 80's.

[TripleSingle]

I think you would have to look at his previous performances to know whether he's lying about his 12 or not. It's not so much about the score he's posting, but what i'm wondering is how does this guy from from a 9 last year to 12 this year. Are the handicaps determined by the clubhouse or the players. Was he in some sort of a slump to go up 12, but happened to just have a really good day.
And more importantly, how did he get the +1 after 13 holes? Was he hitting GIRs and tapping in for pars, or did he get lucky and sink in a couple 20-footers, maybe a chip-in for par, etc? But regardless whether a guy is playing off a 5, 9, or 12, you still got to give him credit for being +1 after 13 holes. I'm not surprised anyone who plays between a 9-12 can be +1 over 13 holes, no different than a 5 handicapper can be +8 after 13 holes.

[Hstead]

I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1381150156' post='7964089']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381143773' post='7963879']
[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1381119565' post='7963549']
I'd be skeptical too. I am usually within 5 strokes of my index either direction, giving me about a 10 stroke spread. I think most people are probably this way. To come up 10 strokes better than your handicap under the pressure of a club championship is so amazing it's a bit unrealistic. I can't out shoot my index by 10 strokes under the most ideal conditions (playing in a low pressure match with some buddies) much less a tournament.
[/quote]

Exactly.

The odds of a 12 handicap beating his index by 10 strokes is 83,400 to 1.
[/quote]

Which doesn't mean it's impossible.

Even someone wins the lotto every once in a while, at 200 million to 1 odds.

Need to look at the guy's scoring history to know what's going on.
[/quote]

lol

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381154491' post='7964389']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.
[/quote]

Ok, I will go ahead and start a thread and ask the question then what guys handicaps are and what their career low is. I know I have a bunch of golf buddies that have career lows at least ten shots better than the handicaps, especially when their handicaps are on the high side by a couple shots like this guys was. My dad played mostly as a 10, lowest he ever was in his life was a 7 and highest was probably 12, and his career low was 69, 3 under. Like I said before, the guy had 5 more holes to go to which you seem to want to ignore. I will link to the thread and we can see what the results are. Maybe I will be wrong?

[indyvai]

[quote name='Greenie' timestamp='1381104923' post='7962429']
[quote name='Yepyukon' timestamp='1381103808' post='7962309']
What did he shoot to beat the others to get to the final with you? If he was putting up 1 overs every match, then yes you were hustled. If he squeaked by the other matches and then had a career round, congratulate him and tell him you will see him next year.
[/quote]

I agree with this^^^^^^....I play off a 15. I had 7pars,1birdie, and a triple bogey on the back nine yesterday. It was just a casual round but I can get hot that way. I can get even hotter when I am playing for something. For me I think it is a focus thing. I can shoot an 80 or 105 on any given day.
[/quote]

If you figure out how to eliminate the triple let me know... Every great nine slips in a triple for me too!

[Hstead]

Here is the link. This should be fun anyway to see what guys career low is compared to their handicap and who has the biggest gap. I guess my "gap" would be 16 shots.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/917915-what-is-your-handicap-and-what-is-your-career-low/

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381154492' post='7964391']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.
[/quote]

You gave your opinion on the subject, and now that people disagree with you you're yelling it louder and louder as though the loudest guy in the room is somehow "correct." Nobody is "ignoring reason," they just don't agree with you.

[vbb]

Nobody is saying there's definitive evidence that the OP got hustled. Of course there's not. Maybe the guy had a career round. Maybe the guy had a bogus handicap. We'll never know for sure. What I (and Eye2 and a few others) are saying is that the odds are more likely that the guy had a bogus handicap than a career round going.

I have had 9-10 hole stretches where I'm out of my mind, and then crashed back down to reality on the last 8-9 holes. I can see it being possible that this guy was out of his gourd for 13 holes... but the odds are against him, that's all.

[Craglyboy]

Yeah it's way too hard to sandbag really here only way is if he stopped playing at one course waited a year and jpined somewhere else and got a new handicap and did crap in qualifiers and only turn it on in the matchplay. Your handicap can only ever go up by 0.1 regardless of how bad you do under CONGU.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Craglyboy' timestamp='1381155457' post='7964457']
Yeah it's way too hard to sandbag really here only way is if he stopped playing at one course waited a year and jpined somewhere else and got a new handicap and did crap in qualifiers and only turn it on in the matchplay. Your handicap can only ever go up by 0.1 regardless of how bad you do under CONGU.
[/quote]

See this is way different than in the states. I am not nearly as familiar with CONGU, but in the states guys can go up and down 3 strokes in three months if they are playing bad. From what I do understand about CONGU is it is much more based on tournament rounds correct?

[TripleSingle]

The way I see it, just give the guy credit for going +1 over 13 holes regardless of his handicap. We all have our good days and dog days. Anyone who is an ex single digit handicapper is capable of going +1 over 13. Who cares what the odds are, what are the odds we shoot 10 over our handicap? I don't think any of us go out on the golf course thinking about odds. I'm sure we've all been in situations where we have 3 birdies the first 5 holes and end up shooting +12, and some days where we got +5 the first 3 holes and still end with +5 after 18.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381154782' post='7964413']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381154491' post='7964389']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.
[/quote]

Ok, I will go ahead and start a thread and ask the question then what guys handicaps are and what their career low is. I know I have a bunch of golf buddies that have career lows at least ten shots better than the handicaps, especially when their handicaps are on the high side by a couple shots like this guys was. My dad played mostly as a 10, lowest he ever was in his life was a 7 and highest was probably 12, and his career low was 69, 3 under. Like I said before, the guy had 5 more holes to go to which you seem to want to ignore. I will link to the thread and we can see what the results are. Maybe I will be wrong?
[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to use anecdotal evidence to argue with math?

[somaplr]

Your club championship is handicapped? That's bushleague.

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1381107924' post='7962725']
[quote name='mantan' timestamp='1381107493' post='7962667']
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I am positive you got hustled. Match play finals, a high pressure event and a guy is on pace to shoot 10 shots below his handicap? That's not a guy just being 'on' for a day. I don't buy it for a minute.

The icing on the cake is that a match play event can end on the last hole and the guy doesn't have to post the score. And the fact he didn't want to speaks volumes about the situation.
[/quote]

I agree. And, if I were playing so well, I know I'd want to finish the round, even if the match was over.
[/quote]

I totally agree, Sean. I've played in several matches (or been a witness to) that finished on the 13, 14, or 15 hole with the winner on pace to shoot a great round. Never have I heard "hey guys, let's just head in to the clubhouse. I really don't feel like finishing the potentially best round of golf for me this year".

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1381155236' post='7964437']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381154492' post='7964391']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.
[/quote]

You gave your opinion on the subject, and now that people disagree with you you're yelling it louder and louder as though the loudest guy in the room is somehow "correct." Nobody is "ignoring reason," they just don't agree with you.
[/quote]

That is a very inaccurate description of the situation.

[rsj1360]

+1 over 13 holes for a 12 hcp does not seem unreasonable. I've seen my friend, who is about a 12, get hot over a bunch of holes and be very close to even par.

That being said, does not mean you were not hustled.

[Pepperturbo]

If you're going to play in tournaments of any kind, there will be people with questionable history. Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. Forget it and move on. If you dwell however, that could suggest why he beat you; getting in your own way will give others the edge.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381157298' post='7964627']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381154782' post='7964413']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381154491' post='7964389']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.
[/quote]

Ok, I will go ahead and start a thread and ask the question then what guys handicaps are and what their career low is. I know I have a bunch of golf buddies that have career lows at least ten shots better than the handicaps, especially when their handicaps are on the high side by a couple shots like this guys was. My dad played mostly as a 10, lowest he ever was in his life was a 7 and highest was probably 12, and his career low was 69, 3 under. Like I said before, the guy had 5 more holes to go to which you seem to want to ignore. I will link to the thread and we can see what the results are. Maybe I will be wrong?
[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to use anecdotal evidence to argue with math?
[/quote]

So far not a single person has agreed with you on this thread or the other thread, and a lot of people have given examples of guys shooting better than the handicaps by +10, and especially better for a shorter duration of holes, like 9 or 13. So you can do your math, of which I am not certain where or how you came up with your math, but evidently everyone but you is incorrect. It is getting a little ridiculous really. You accused me of "ignoring reason" yet when dozens of guys have agreed and given examples, we are all "anecdotal" to your math? Have you looked at the other thread. You are batting .000 so far.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381158929' post='7964781']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381157298' post='7964627']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381154782' post='7964413']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381154491' post='7964389']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381153952' post='7964339']
I was going to defend my remarks about a 12 possibly going +1 over 13 holes but a bunch of people seemed to have beat me to it. So yeah Eye2+, it is more than possible. I am certain if we asked the question of all of the 12 handicaps on this site what their career low round is, many are going to be close to par, not to mention the guy still had 5 holes to play, which is a lot of golf left. Not to mention, the guy was a 9. My handicap has fluctuated more than 3 shots over a one year period in my golfing career, trust me that too is easily done when you are having a bad run and then turn it around. Happened to me this year while going through some swing changes. My career low is 63 and my handicap was 7 not all that long ago. A 12 could be +1 over 13 quite easily. The question is, as many others have asked, was this the "norm" at other events etc or not?
[/quote]

I gave you the odds. One in 83,400 rounds. With those odds you are more likely to never beat your index by 10 strokes than to do it once in a lifetime.

I can't help it if you choose to ignore reason.
[/quote]

Ok, I will go ahead and start a thread and ask the question then what guys handicaps are and what their career low is. I know I have a bunch of golf buddies that have career lows at least ten shots better than the handicaps, especially when their handicaps are on the high side by a couple shots like this guys was. My dad played mostly as a 10, lowest he ever was in his life was a 7 and highest was probably 12, and his career low was 69, 3 under. Like I said before, the guy had 5 more holes to go to which you seem to want to ignore. I will link to the thread and we can see what the results are. Maybe I will be wrong?
[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to use anecdotal evidence to argue with math?
[/quote]

So far not a single person has agreed with you on this thread or the other thread, and a lot of people have given examples of guys shooting better than the handicaps by +10, and especially better for a shorter duration of holes, like 9 or 13. So you can do your math, of which I am not certain where or how you came up with your math, but evidently everyone but you is incorrect. It is getting a little ridiculous really. You accused me of "ignoring reason" yet when dozens of guys have agreed and given examples, we are all "anecdotal" to your math? Have you looked at the other thread. You are batting .000 so far.
[/quote]

I see this a lost cause.

"I've never seen gravity. Just any of my friends they've never seen gravity either. Therefore gravity doesn't exist."

Good luck with that line of reasoning.