Match play final.. Was I hustled?

[Soloman1]

Any chance we can stop with quoting the entire internet every post?

[Hstead]

What I like is that we are being told it is not possible and all of these astronomical numbers against the odds, but we have now had quite a few members explain how within the past week or so they themselves did something similar. I guess all of these guys are making it up because if you listen to a couple guys here it is impossible.

The Mercedes challenge was held at our course last week, two man best ball with your strokes and 15 under won. Every single year it is double digits to win that tournament. I guess every year the winners are cheats.

My Sunday game that was comprised of 12 players, 3 foursomes playing as a net total winner take all. 5 under own and I shot 4 under and tied for second.

Right now my handicap is 6 and I can shoot ten under that and have multiple times with my career beat being an 8 under 63 which would be 14 better than my current handicap.

Again, the guy played 13 holes not 18 and the guy used to be. 9. If you think that person is incapable of shooting 1 over thru 13 holes then more power to you but you are foolish.

[arnold palmtree]

I agree thegeekgolfer that it is harder to go 10 below the better you. It would be interesting to see the probabilities on a 59.

However my point remains, the statistics say it is improbable such a high percentage on this forum have bested one in 84,300 odds.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381185098' post='7966997']
What I like is that we are being told it is not possible and all of these astronomical numbers against the odds, but we have now had quite a few members explain how within the past week or so they themselves did something similar. I guess all of these guys are making it up because if you listen to a couple guys here it is impossible. [/quote]

The fact you have to misrepresent the opposing argument should be an indicator that you should reconsider your argument.

[Hstead]

So all of these members are either lying or cheats?

[TheGeekGolfer]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381185162' post='7967009']
I agree thegeekgolfer that it is harder to go 10 below the better you. It would be interesting to see the probabilities on a 59.

However my point remains, the statistics say it is improbable such a[b] high percentage on this forum[/b] have bested one in 84,300 odds.
[/quote]
Yes, but you have to remember ONE THING... the people that are replying to this post are the ONES THAT HAVE DONE IT or experienced it. It's not a poll of ALL GOLFERS or even ALL WRX MEMBERS. You are much more likely to reply to this post with anecdotal evidence that it happened to you, if it did in fact happen to you! If it didn't happen to you, you may just skip the post entirely or not bother joining in, because you have nothing to add. Odds mean nothing in this case.

[Hstead]

Check out the other thread where Instant Offense, a Club pro that runs tournaments etc says it happens at his club and he explains it quite well. Go tell him he is either making it up, has a bunch of cheaters, or knows not if what he speaks.

How many people is it going to take to explain it to you that it is possible,?

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='TheGeekGolfer' timestamp='1381186458' post='7967135']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381185162' post='7967009']
I agree thegeekgolfer that it is harder to go 10 below the better you. It would be interesting to see the probabilities on a 59.

However my point remains, the statistics say it is improbable such a[b] high percentage on this forum[/b] have bested one in 84,300 odds.
[/quote]
Yes, but you have to remember ONE THING... the people that are replying to this post are the ONES THAT HAVE DONE IT or experienced it. It's not a poll of ALL GOLFERS or even ALL WRX MEMBERS. You are much more likely to reply to this post with anecdotal evidence that it happened to you, if it did in fact happen to you! If it didn't happen to you, you may just skip the post entirely or not bother joining in, because you have nothing to add. Odds mean nothing in this case.
[/quote]

This would be a better argument if this thread was titled, "click on this thread if you've beaten your handicap by 10 strokes"

The odds of the percentage of posters reading this thread who have done so would surely he minuscule.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381186712' post='7967155']
Check out the other thread where Instant Offense, a Club pro that runs tournaments etc says it happens at his club and he explains it quite well. Go tell him he is either making it up, has a bunch of cheaters, or knows not if what he speaks.

How many people is it going to take to explain it to you that it is possible,?
[/quote]

Are you seriously this dense?

I've said numerous times the likelihood of him doing so is 0.002%.

[Hstead]

There seems to be way more people that are as dense as I am then because the overwhelming majority on both threads have agreed with me and not you. I think you have two guys now that agree with you. Way to go.

[Pepperturbo]

A friend plays to 17/18 and he's had a 1 over through 9 too. But try this perspective on for size. There is a discrepancy in this discussion when it comes to the course the 17 or even the 12 is playing. I do not see a 17 at 1 over through 9 on the courses I frequent. They are too difficult for that likelihood. Could others say its not possible, but basing the likelihood on more difficult courses and yardages? Yardage and difficulty does play a roll in influencing the probability.

I have played with my buddy enough to ask him what tees and course was he playing. Turned out white tees, 6000yds, sloped under 119 and easy. When he's playing with me, its Blue tee's and courses are rated 131-140; far more difficult. His scores show it too. No way could he be at 1 over through 9 @"37", more like a 48+.

[Hstead]

Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]

[Sean2]

I now feel bad for the guy who was suspended from our club a couple of years ago. He was a mid-handicapper who always shot well below his HI in tournaments. I now know he was just having a good day during tournaments.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you man. You're arguing that anecdotal evidence is more sound that the statistical evidence the USGA publishes.

I can't make you accept the truth. All I can do is give it to you.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you man. You're arguing that anecdotal evidence is more sound that the statistical evidence the USGA publishes.

I can't make you accept the truth. All I can do is give it to you.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381189320' post='7967409']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you man. You're arguing that anecdotal evidence is more sound that the statistical evidence the USGA publishes.

I can't make you accept the truth. All I can do is give it to you.
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you, but the guy was a 9, played 13 holes not 18, and was +1 just like a million other guys have done. Sorry you have never experienced that. Like so many guys that agree with me and have chimed in, including a Club Pro that runs tournaments, it could easily be done. All I can do is give you the overwhelming majority of people here who have done it, seen it, and agree with me. I wish we could all be as smart as you.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381189816' post='7967447']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381189320' post='7967409']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you man. You're arguing that anecdotal evidence is more sound that the statistical evidence the USGA publishes.

I can't make you accept the truth. All I can do is give it to you.
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you, but the guy was a 9, played 13 holes not 18, and was +1 just like a million other guys have done. Sorry you have never experienced that. Like so many guys that agree with me and have chimed in, including a Club Pro that runs tournaments, it could easily be done. All I can do is give you the overwhelming majority of people here who have done it, seen it, and agree with me. I wish we could all be as smart as you.
[/quote]

Oh I've certainly shot 10 below my handicap. The problem was the handicap wasn't reflective of my actual ability.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381190193' post='7967483']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381189816' post='7967447']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381189320' post='7967409']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you man. You're arguing that anecdotal evidence is more sound that the statistical evidence the USGA publishes.

I can't make you accept the truth. All I can do is give it to you.
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you, but the guy was a 9, played 13 holes not 18, and was +1 just like a million other guys have done. Sorry you have never experienced that. Like so many guys that agree with me and have chimed in, including a Club Pro that runs tournaments, it could easily be done. All I can do is give you the overwhelming majority of people here who have done it, seen it, and agree with me. I wish we could all be as smart as you.
[/quote]

Oh I've certainly shot 10 below my handicap. The problem was the handicap wasn't reflective of my actual ability.
[/quote]

Blasphemy. You haven't played 90,542 rounds yet. So, you could have never done it more than once. No way. you would have had to have played 358, 413 rounds which is impossible for a man that is not at least 92 years old.

And there is no way possible you have ever played even better than that for 9 holes or 13 holes, no way.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381190629' post='7967513']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381190193' post='7967483']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381189816' post='7967447']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381189320' post='7967409']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you man. You're arguing that anecdotal evidence is more sound that the statistical evidence the USGA publishes.

I can't make you accept the truth. All I can do is give it to you.
[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you, but the guy was a 9, played 13 holes not 18, and was +1 just like a million other guys have done. Sorry you have never experienced that. Like so many guys that agree with me and have chimed in, including a Club Pro that runs tournaments, it could easily be done. All I can do is give you the overwhelming majority of people here who have done it, seen it, and agree with me. I wish we could all be as smart as you.
[/quote]

Oh I've certainly shot 10 below my handicap. The problem was the handicap wasn't reflective of my actual ability.
[/quote]

Blasphemy. You haven't played 90,542 rounds yet. So, you could have never done it more than once. No way. you would have had to have played 358, 413 rounds which is impossible for a man that is not at least 92 years old.

And there is no way possible you have ever played even better than that for 9 holes or 13 holes, no way.
[/quote]

It's just crazy to me how you think this is a legitimate response.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381188669' post='7967345']
Here is what Instant Offense had to say on the other thread. I guess he is just dense?

[i][b]Handicap- +4.3
Career Low- 60 on par 71 with course rating of 70.1

As for the subject. I make teams for our members literally every day I work and I see the scores come in. I have saw a ton of 14 handicaps play 13 holes at +1. We have a senior golfer who is at minimum a 13 and he has posted a two under 69 in the last year. His average score is more like 85. It's not something that should happen a lot, but it does happen. Not all 14 handicaps are created equal. [/b][/i]
[/quote]

I could be wrong, but this sounds as though he's taken a passive position, accepting it as reality in his club. Doesn't sound right to me, and I've been on the BOD of two clubs.

[dirthead]

I got taken by a guy I play with regularly, who is a 12. I'm a 2. He wanted to play a Nassau with me giving him 5 shots a side. I was busy and not really paying attention when he offered, so I accepted. Lesson learned. I normally shoot anywhere from 69 to 78. He shoots from 74 to 89. The problem is that his scores really go up because he can make several doubles, triples, or even quads. He makes lots of pars and a few birdies. If we were playing stroke play, 10 shots might be ok, but not match play. If he shoots 85 and has 2 triples, well that's only 2 holes. In match play, the large numbers that screw up your total score don't hurt you nearly as much. A high handicapper that has the ability to shoot a low round can be very dangerous in match play. I learned my lesson. For match play, something like 50% of handicap differential would be a little more realistic than 100%.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381183316' post='7966857']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1381183059' post='7966837']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381182691' post='7966805']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381182251' post='7966775']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381181734' post='7966721']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381172488' post='7965957']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381171000' post='7965837']
I think Eye2+ is getting his 84,300:1 odds from here: [url="http://popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html"]http://popeofslope.c...gging/odds.html[/url]

These are based on the US system. If this guy was playing in Ireland under CONGU, then it wouldn't necessarily apply. His handicap might be slow to catch up to an improvement.

That said, it should be fairly obvious if someone is fibbing about their handicap. A couple of bladed chips that clatter the flag and drop in the hole, combined with a couple of drives into the trees that kick out are the kind of freak occurrences that make up for the 84,300:1 odds. For the record by the way, what those odds mean is that for every 84,300 rounds played by a 12 handicap, you would expect on average that one of those rounds would be -10 or better. It might be none of them and it might be two or three of them. It might also be one of them. Unlikely to be many though. 84,300 rounds equates to 231 years of playing every day. That means anyone who genuinely shot -10 from a 12 handicap was VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY lucky indeed. Or is lying, or mistaken. Or, just had a lesson and had something click and actually improved from the 12 handicap, but their handicap hadn't caught up yet.

I've shot -10 to my handicap several times in my life. All of them when I was new to the game, playing in the UK where my ability outran my handicap for a while and it took a long time for my handicap to catch up. That's a very different reason from being once in four lifetimes lucky or cheating.

As an aside, things with very long odds happen all the time. Take a deck of cards and shuffle them. Properly. Now look at them. The odds that that deck of cards ended up in that particular arrangement are around 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000:1 against. But it just happened. It's not that impressive, because one of them was going to occur and there were 8x10^67 possible outcomes. Likewise, if you took 100,000 players and had them play every day for a year, some of them would shoot -10. That is a far cry from someone shooting -10 playing against you in the final of your club championship
[/quote]

Just like your example with the cards....it happens.

...and there is always someone around WHEN that round happens.

I imagine that there are PLENTY of zeroes behind the odds of a professional golfer shooting a 59 in competition. But yet six people have done it...and the guy who was playing alongside Jim Furyk when he shot his, didn't have any idea that he was going to see history that day.
[/quote]

Mickelson has been as high as a 7.2+ and most pros would be above a +3. Shooting a 59 would be fewer than 10 shots better than their handicap.

Only 6 guys have ever done it.

Yet 5/6 of this thread have pulled off this feat...
[/quote]

[i]So you're accusing me of being a liar now, too?[/i]

Dude. [i]Put down the shovel, and climb out of the hole you're digging. [/i]

On a forum like this you are dealing with a self-selected SUB-POPULATION golfers from around the world. Not a random selection of a handful of recreational golfers.

I'm not surprised at the numbers here...and if you understood the limits of the math here, you wouldn't be either.
[/quote]

I'm seriously struggling to comprehend your stream of consciousness here.

[b]We were discussing pga pros vs this forum.[/b]
[/quote]
I don't think so......have you read the title? Or the OP? If not I can understand how you are struggling to comprehend.....You're in the wrong forum.......
[/quote]

Just stop replying if all you want to do is troll. Or either join the conversation and read the preceding posts before you make nonsensical replies.
[/quote]
I think that if you'd read anything but your own posts, you'd find that I have been on topic all the way through this thread. Enough so that others have quoted all or parts of my posts, either in agreement or not. None of them have called anyone a liar or intimated they were cheaters, except for yourself.You seem quite adept at it. For a guy with just 119 posts under his belt, you seem to be well on your way toward alienating yourself. I hope that changes. It's always good to have someone else contributing solid opinions presented well.

[Joe26]

When i was a 19 I shot 39 on the front.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Joe26' timestamp='1381192144' post='7967665']
When i was a 19 I shot 39 on the front.
[/quote]

Sure you did Joe. Was this your 84,000th round?

[arnold palmtree]

I kindly asked you to stop replying if you were just going to troll and not stay in topic.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381192279' post='7967689']
I kindly asked you to stop replying if you were just going to troll and not stay in topic.
[/quote]
Let me put it another way. Three years ago, I was a twelve handicap. Par on our course is 35 - 36 - 71. I shot 33 - 39 - 72. It was one of those days. Perhaps you can explain that, because I can't. The first time I broke 90, I shot 81. The first time I broke 80, I shot 72. I can't explain that, either. Perhaps you can? But I can assure you, that is all true. I didn't make it up. But it sure does mess with the odds you suggest are unassailable, doesn't it?
These things happen to people everywhere, very often. I've seen it, I've done it and others have either seen it or done it, Odds be dam*ed.
BTW, is anyone who criticizes you or disagrees with you a troll? If so, believe me when I tell you this. There are a lot of us, then.

[GWD]

How about this...and everyone will be satisfied and go on to other threads. I think it was already mentioned once.

The perp doesn't practice golf much for a few months and his handicap jumps from 9 to a 12. Then, with the tournament coming up, he practices daily for a couple of weeks...HDC still 12 but with the practice he is actually playing to a 5 or 6 with better and more consistent ball-striking. A 9 is pretty good to begin with and anybody that good should be able to shave a few strokes with a lot of practice.

I can see that happening without it being a stretch. See how easy it is to compromise...now just tell the Dems and Reps.

Oh, one other thought (also already mentioned). We don't know what was given in match play. I hit two shots OB and one in the water so give my opponent the hole after his drive. Does he card a 2 on a par 4? Nice eagle.

How about he has a 60 foot putt, you are out of the hole, and give it for a birdie? There are all sorts of possibilities about which we don't know the specifics.

[SatelliteGuy]

My point in all this is simple...

Possible.... Sure...

Is it PLAUSIBLE a 12 HDCP shoots out of his mind during an actual tournament....

Tournament rough...

Tournament greens...

Tournament tees...

Tournament pressure...


I said it once and I'll say it again, the amount of condescending remarks and implied labels of stupidity is ridiculous when we are all discussing AN OPINION...

My OPINION is that a 12 HDCP doesn't shoot out of his mind in a Tournament.

I truly hope before we get another reply implying how stupid or dense I am... That we can at least distinguish the difficulty in this feat between a casual round and a FLIPPIN TOURNAMENT.


Note: I capitalize for emphasis, not volume or emotion.

[Yepyukon]

I kind of equate this to when I was on a bowling league a few years ago. I had a 133 average (I am a golfer, not a bowler) and one game during one match of the entire season, I bowled a 235. Received a watch congratulating me for my 100 pins over average score. I assure you I did not cheat and I am not really sure if you can cheat in bowling. Just a fluke that happened and I believe that is all this post is, a fluke.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='jabrch' timestamp='1381182292' post='7966779']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1381115037' post='7963253']
I think it is possible. I played yesterday with a guy that was a 12 and he said his best round every on our course was 71, Par is 70. He had a chance on the last hole, middle of the fairway, 100 yards away, and plugged it in a bunker. Made bogey. He said he was bummed. I could see him doing it and I could also see him being a 12. Granted, shouldn't be happening often, but a 12 could be a couple over for 18 holes I think, and if he was once a 9, he for sure could be a couple over for 18. Just because he was 1 over for 13 doesn't mean he didn't have a couple of doubles ahead of him once the choke factor starts coming into play around hole 16 when he realizes he has a chance to shoot his best round etc etc.
[/quote]

I'm a 17. Just yesterday I was 1 over through 9. 5 over after 13...then pulled three triples in a row. Ended up 16 over. Still a tremendous round of golf for me - but it is certainly not impossible for a 12 to be 1 over after 13... [u][i][b] Just kinda odd if it happens regularly with the same guy only in tournament play.[/b][/i][/u]
[/quote]

[i][b]We have a winner. [/b][/i]