Why Don't More Courses Roll Their Greens?

[Holy Moses]

I love putting on rolled greens. Smoother and faster. Probably don't have to cut the grass as short either. But it seems few courses do it. Is it hard on the turf? Time consuming?

[apprenti23]

Extra time (more wages) , added costs (more equipment and equipment maintenance) additional compaction to the playing surface.

Maybe if golfers fixed their ball marks the surface would be smooth enough as is.

Faster greens (which is the only real reason to roll greens) aren't very necessary. If greens are an 8 or 12 it doesn't matter as long as they are consistently an 8 or a 12.

[Socrates]

First let me say there is no reason (absolutely none) for greens faster than 10 but, I really do appreciate courses that roll the green every once in a while. I've played courses where they never rolled the greens and then they started rolling them once a week. Huge difference in the trueness of the putt. The greens roll a little faster, but the biggest improvement is in the roll. I don't think it needs to be done more than once a week.

The drawback is that it ultimately does cost more in equipment and the course might have to aerate just a bit more often, so there is a downside. I know at our course people go out of their way to mention how much better the greens are. They don't know why - just that they're better for some reason.

[Holy Moses]

Is there a machine that mows and rolls?

[redraider1685]

when people talk about stimpmeter speeds and all courses should be around a 10 I start to roll my eyes, a stimpmeter reading is just one way of measuring a green not all greens play the same if they stimp to 12

if you are playing relatively flat greens they should stimp out higher than a smaller more undulated green

playability is the main issue in green speed not stimpmeter readings

also every course should roll their greens it's just not something they can all afford to do, it takes some of the grain out of the green increases the firmness of the putting surface so it can hold up during high traffic and helps with surface drainage

[alange_underpar]

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1384965794' post='8178012']
when people talk about stimpmeter speeds and all courses should be around a 10 I start to roll my eyes, a stimpmeter reading is just one way of measuring a green not all greens play the same if they stimp to 12

if you are playing relatively flat greens they should stimp out higher than a smaller more undulated green

playability is the main issue in green speed not stimpmeter readings

also every course should roll their greens it's just not something they can all afford to do, it takes some of the grain out of the green increases the firmness of the putting surface so it can hold up during high traffic and helps with surface drainage
[/quote]

Very true, and the overall course design as well. There are courses (like the one I've belonged to) where the golfers always talk about the greens needing to be faster, never considering that they shoot 110 on that course from the whites already with the greens rolling 8, and want them to be at 10-11. The course would be damn near impossible to play for your mid to high handicaps and even the lows would be complaining, especially when there are holes, the way they are designed, that wouldn't be able to hold a shot with a green that fast.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Stimp Meter is just a reference point and can't be the end all be all of how a green plays.

[agray94]

For most courses firmer and faster greens translates to longer rounds for the average golfer. Courses have to balance challenge with revenue. If courses start having 5-6 hour rounds then golfers will go someplace else.
Locally courses have cut back/thinned rough, cut back some no-mow areas, slowed greens, removed trees/or branches and simplified pin placements.
It is truly a challenge for greenskeepers to keep course fun for the masses and tough for the top end players. In the end though at most public courses the masses will win out. They have to have the revenue to keep the course going.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Fore(ged)' timestamp='1384965417' post='8177948']
Is there a machine that mows and rolls?
[/quote]
You would think so smart guy would come up with that, but I guess there are reasons why it's not done.

[turfmantim]

How do you know if they are rolling or not rolling?

[Socrates]

[quote name='turfmantim' timestamp='1384988290' post='8180308']
How do you know if they are rolling or not rolling?
[/quote]
If you see one of these... then you know. Otherwise, ask the proshop.
[attachment=1957346:Roller.jpeg]

[farmer]

Another expensive piece of equipment to be bought and maintained. Another person to hire and train.

[larryw]

[quote name='redraider1685' timestamp='1384965794' post='8178012']
when people talk about stimpmeter speeds and all courses should be around a 10 I start to roll my eyes, a stimpmeter reading is just one way of measuring a green not all greens play the same if they stimp to 12

if you are playing relatively flat greens they should stimp out higher than a smaller more undulated green

playability is the main issue in green speed not stimpmeter readings

also every course should roll their greens it's just not something they can all afford to do, it takes some of the grain out of the green increases the firmness of the putting surface so it can hold up during high traffic and helps with surface drainage
[/quote]

It does seem to make the greens roll smoother and takes a little of the break out and I really like it for those reasons.

Is there an industry standard measurement for Playability? Stimpmeter is about all we have other than adding that the greens are 'flat' or 'undulated' which I have noticed some of the golf announcers do as they described the setup for the day.

[turfmantim]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1384996575' post='8180962']
[quote name='turfmantim' timestamp='1384988290' post='8180308']
How do you know if they are rolling or not rolling?
[/quote]
If you see one of these... then you know. Otherwise, ask the proshop.
[attachment=1957346:Roller.jpeg]
[/quote]
So all you're going on is if you see a roller on the course? I'd be willing to bet that most of the courses roll and you don't even know.

[ruascott]

Our club rolls them both sat and Sunday mornings through the year, and often once during the week. They are great on those weekend mornings. Makes a huge difference

[starsail85]

If your club can afford the initial outlay to purchase a greens roller, then the benefits to the playing quality of your greens can be dramatic. It terms of speed and trueness a greens roller is of far bigger benefit than actually mowing the greens. Greenkeepers can raise the height of cut, and reduce the mowing frequency without loosing speed of the greens. this places LESS stress on the greens. There is definitely a mowing culture within greenkeeping, as task that in reality should only be carried out when growth dictates. The best greenkeepers know that slow growing fine grasses, combined with a rolling and brushing program to establish fast true surfaces is much more sustainable and beneficial than relentless mowing

A problem I see in the UK is that greenkeepers tend to use these speed rollers as supplimentary work to increase the speed of the greens, and use them perhaps once a week, before a competition perhaps. In an ideal world ideas would be changed and mowing would be carried out less, and rolling more frequently, which would save money, not cost money, as less mowing requires less fertiliser input to maintain sward density. Compaction would be less of an issue believe it or not, think of a 3 wheeled tripple mower and the pressure each of those tires puts down, verses the spread out weight of a greens roller. if you have a decent aeration program, it wont ever be an issue.

If your club doesnt have one, it would benefit

[lumberman2462]

We have a roller. Improvement in the greens when rolled is amazing.

The problem is that it takes 8 hours to roll the greens.

I've timed the greens keeper multiple times and that's just what it takes....he's not being pokey either.

Augusta National probably has ten rollers in their equipment barn. Small clubs will have one. Roll the green, load up roller and go to next, unload and roll and repeat.

Time consuming.

[dbleag]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385645503' post='8220690']
We have a roller. Improvement in the greens when rolled is amazing.

The problem is that it takes 8 hours to roll the greens.

I've timed the greens keeper multiple times and that's just what it takes....he's not being pokey either.

Augusta National probably has ten rollers in their equipment barn. Small clubs will have one. Roll the green, load up roller and go to next, unload and roll and repeat.

Time consuming.
[/quote]

sounds like your course isn't using a "speed-roller", but a regular heavy roller. speed-rollers, like the one pictured above, take less than 5 minutes per green.

[lumberman2462]

[quote name='dbleag' timestamp='1385647002' post='8220756']
[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385645503' post='8220690']
We have a roller. Improvement in the greens when rolled is amazing.

The problem is that it takes 8 hours to roll the greens.

I've timed the greens keeper multiple times and that's just what it takes....he's not being pokey either.

Augusta National probably has ten rollers in their equipment barn. Small clubs will have one. Roll the green, load up roller and go to next, unload and roll and repeat.

Time consuming.
[/quote]

sounds like your course isn't using a "speed-roller", but a regular heavy roller. speed-rollers, like the one pictured above, take less than 5 minutes per green.
[/quote]

Nope. Nothing speedy about our roller. It does work though.

[starsail85]

I use one at work all the time, 19 greens in less than 3 hours comfortably

faster than hand cutting greens easily

[lumberman2462]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1385657390' post='8221528']
I use one at work all the time, 19 greens in less than 3 hours comfortably

faster than hand cutting greens easily
[/quote]

That's speedy. Hand cutting is slow.

The greens at my club are unique to the area. Bent with a lot of small nuanced undulation. They simply cannot be rolled or mowed quickly.

[starsail85]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385664558' post='8221970']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1385657390' post='8221528']
I use one at work all the time, 19 greens in less than 3 hours comfortably

faster than hand cutting greens easily
[/quote]

That's speedy. Hand cutting is slow.

The greens at my club are unique to the area. Bent with a lot of small nuanced undulation. They simply cannot be rolled or mowed quickly.
[/quote]

Not that thats a bad thing, never had a problem using them on sloped greens, they can loose traction though if the ground is wet and the slope is steep

You can get vibratory attachments that fit on the triple mowers that might help, they are not as effective as the speed rollers but they still work well. usually speed the greens up about half a foot LESS than the speed roller, which isnt bad when you consider that the speed roller can put 2 feet on the stimp right away

[ruascott]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385648651' post='8220870']
[quote name='dbleag' timestamp='1385647002' post='8220756']
[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385645503' post='8220690']
We have a roller. Improvement in the greens when rolled is amazing.

The problem is that it takes 8 hours to roll the greens.

I've timed the greens keeper multiple times and that's just what it takes....he's not being pokey either.

Augusta National probably has ten rollers in their equipment barn. Small clubs will have one. Roll the green, load up roller and go to next, unload and roll and repeat.

Time consuming.
[/quote]

sounds like your course isn't using a "speed-roller", but a regular heavy roller. speed-rollers, like the one pictured above, take less than 5 minutes per green.
[/quote]

Nope. Nothing speedy about our roller. It does work though.
[/quote]

I've only seen the speed rollers....what does yours look like?

Hand mowing and speed rolling.....that's the way to get great greens.

[notredame3950]

[quote name='ruascott' timestamp='1386174037' post='8247357']
[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385648651' post='8220870']
[quote name='dbleag' timestamp='1385647002' post='8220756']
[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1385645503' post='8220690']
We have a roller. Improvement in the greens when rolled is amazing.

The problem is that it takes 8 hours to roll the greens.

I've timed the greens keeper multiple times and that's just what it takes....he's not being pokey either.

Augusta National probably has ten rollers in their equipment barn. Small clubs will have one. Roll the green, load up roller and go to next, unload and roll and repeat.

Time consuming.
[/quote]

sounds like your course isn't using a "speed-roller", but a regular heavy roller. speed-rollers, like the one pictured above, take less than 5 minutes per green.
[/quote]

Nope. Nothing speedy about our roller. It does work though.
[/quote]

I've only seen the speed rollers....what does yours look like?

Hand mowing and speed rolling.....that's the way to get great greens.
[/quote]

Fresh cut, rolled greens are amazing to putt on. My course has the benefit of having a few rollers, they typically roll 2-3 times a week. In the Summer, cutting every day. We've got the benefit of not having crazy undulating greens (though parts of the greens can be). Putting on freshly rolled greens adds speed immediately- most importantly, trueness of putts.

[PreppySlapCut]

We hand cut every day, roll 4 or more days a week. Double cut double roll for tournaments.