Who forged Ram Tour Grinds?

[@_the_crook]

3-PW. 

[AcePHA]

Does the RED RAM logo have any significance being on the wedges? It seems to be black everywhere until this era.

 

It seems the Tom Watson wedges should be the wedges of the FX muscle back era.

 

Thanks for all the info guys!

Edited December 24, 2021 by AcePHA

[UlfBane]

I appreciate all your many years of insight in helping me figure things out. In regaards to the Laser FX 1 & 2 irons, I have come to concur with you on the grind insights you suggested. I looked at pictures of other 1 irons for sale and found that the originals appear to be just like the ones I have with fatter soles and slightly more pointed toe than the 3-9 irons. It seems that is the way they were designed. The second set I aquired is the 769 grind throughout and comparing the two sets, the main difference i see in the 769 grind is that the 1 and 2 irons are ground to match the 3-9. This grind then appears to have been a refinement done in preparation of transforming the Laser FX into the FX off-set. Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

 

As for Tom Watson's Irons and wedges, here is another quote from the 1997 RAM article.

Chicago Tribune

•

July 23, 1997 

"Ram and Watson have stayed together for 22 years, the longest such relationship in golf today. Watson said the biggest reason he has stuck with Ram is simple: the quality of the clubs.

"We've had a good run," Watson said earlier this month at the Motorola Western Open. "I've always enjoyed my relationship with Jim and the club makers in the factory. When I get a set of clubs, I know they're always going to be exactly to my specs."

Well, almost always.

Several years ago, Hansberger was waiting in his office for a 10 a.m. meeting with Watson. When the clock struck 10:30, Hansberger started to wonder. He walked downstairs to the factory to ask if anyone had seen Watson.

Hansberger's search ended when he found a guy wearing an apron and goggles, grinding a wedge into a machine to add a finishing touch. It was Watson.

"He was back there with his buddies," Hansberger said. "That's Tom."

Not every big-name player on the PGA Tour has been willing to sacrifice endorsement money for that personal attention. Nick Price played with Ram clubs during his ascent to the Tour's top ranking in 1993. But when Price sought a lucrative contract, Ram balked.

The company had spent millions of dollars promoting Price, but surveys showed that few golf fans associated Price with the clubs.

"He did not make a dent in the wall," Fortis said.

Price eventually signed with Goldwin Golf, but industry insiders swear that if you look in Price's bag, you'll find Ram Tour Grind irons.

"I wouldn't mind if half of the Tour used them," Fortis said. "But we're not going to get into bidding wars (for golfers). We don't do things for glitz, and I think most consumers realize that the equipment played on tour is not what they use on weekends."

Hansberger said: "We're not willing to jump up and throw $50 million into advertising the way some companies do. If we did that, we'd have to charge $200 more for a set."

Edited December 21, 2021 by UlfBane
Typos

[@_the_crook]

As we're on a RAM track, These Custom 100 Tour Models are likely a storeline series, though the design is quite nice. Heads are smooth back with no apparent muscle and the faces are very fine. . Shafts labels -RAM custom lite FM. 3-pw set.

 

edited to add -

compared to an original TA 845 3I, head size is about same height and length. sole somewhat narrower. offset a bit less.

wonder when they were manufactured.

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by @_the_crook
data

[UlfBane]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:18 PM, AcePHA said:

@UlfBanethat FX Napa style putter is a major want! First one I've seen!

 

When did the Ram logo change to the red circle over the R on Ram? Did they do that after they mergers, because that is when it seems things start change for the brand. During the change though it seems like some old was mixed with some new. 

 

Just came across this guy in my searching, forged on the hosel...

 

Shares qualities of the 898 and 802 in the 'Tour Series' stamp, yet labeled that and not Tour Grind.

 

That being said...TG-898s have an old no circle Ram logo while the TG-802s do have the red circle logo.

 

 

This thread seems to be THE place for the Ram history.

 

 

The original release of this wedge does not have either the new, distintive FX mark (which became a feature on post 90's clubs) OR the R in the circle (both shown above in the quote). I just bought the one below which I beleive, was originally posted by NRJyzr

Other recent wedge aquisitions include the ULTRA RARE M wedge with Graphite shaft.

And 51 degree FX Pro-set steel shaft with the dots under the M to distinguish it from a W wedge. This was mislisted as a 56 degree wedge by second swing.

And, since you mentioned you liked the FX NAPA Style putter, I included a few snaps of it as well.

All the best for 2022! : )

[NRJyzr]

Nice toys. 🙂

 

Didn't realize, though I should have, that Ram kept making their 8802-a-like blade with FX branding.  Outstanding.

[deepred]

I have the 58 and 52 Troon Grind wedges. The 58 I bought new to go with my 1-SW FX Laser set. The original Ram grip is a reverse twist Tour Wrap. 

[BIG STU]

On 12/27/2021 at 5:20 PM, UlfBane said:

The original release of this wedge does not have either the new, distintive FX mark (which became a feature on post 90's clubs) OR the R in the circle (both shown above in the quote). I just bought the one below which I beleive, was originally posted by NRJyzr

Other recent wedge aquisitions include the ULTRA RARE M wedge with Graphite shaft.

And 51 degree FX Pro-set steel shaft with the dots under the M to distinguish it from a W wedge. This was mislisted as a 56 degree wedge by second swing.

And, since you mentioned you liked the FX NAPA Style putter, I included a few snaps of it as well.

All the best for 2022! : )

Nice looking "8802" style---- I was unaware they made such a nice model. I do have a older Gene Littler Ram that looks more like a Wizard than an 8802. I think the Littler one may have been a department store line. I would say maybe the reason I did not see this Ram Putter was maybe because at our place we had a strong Ping Putter presence. But he did sell a lot of Zebra putters when they came out. Our biggest Ram sellers other than the Fastback starter sets were the Forged ? Ram XS-1000 cavity backs. Actually at our course they sold better than Ping as far as irons go. I think part of that with our customers was price point. 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Nice looking "8802" style---- I was unaware they made such a nice model. I do have a older Gene Littler Ram that looks more like a Wizard than an 8802. I think the Littler one may have been a department store line. I would say maybe the reason I did not see this Ram Putter was maybe because at our place we had a strong Ping Putter presence. But he did sell a lot of Zebra putters when they came out. Our biggest Ram sellers other than the Fastback starter sets were the Forged ? Ram XS-1000 cavity backs. Actually at our course they sold better than Ping as far as irons go. I think part of that with our customers was price point. 

 

What you're talking about, Stu, is a fun aspect of Ram putters.  They had both 8802 and Wizard style putters.  

 

Amusing side note:  my longest putt made in 2021 was with a Golden Ram TW Custom putter.  It's the 8802 style.  Neumann leather grip, also.  😉

 

[UlfBane]

 

Anyone have any info on these? 

ram tour grind super-up 645 s25c

Would like to know the loft of this club specifically + any other info (year released etc.)

[NRJyzr]

Those aren't something I'm familiar with.  Wondering if they might be an early 2000s model, after TearDrop's bankruptcy...

 

100% guess 😉

 

[UlfBane]

I have determined that these are apparantly Japan only issues.

Other than that there appears to be little, if any info on these on the internet. While they may be from the time period you suggest, the cavity backs that I believe were available in the us at that time were these.

They would have complimented the TG-898 line. The specs of which are published on the internet but the pitching wedge loft is incorrect.

https://qsponge.com/questions/13809437/What_is_loft_angle_of_Ram_Tour_Grind_Irons

https://www.golfclubspec.com/iron_results.php?id=174

It is stamped on the club at 47 degrees (same as the FX Tour Grinds of the late 90's).

[NRJyzr]

33 minutes ago, UlfBane said:

The specs of which are published on the internet but the pitching wedge loft is incorrect.

https://qsponge.com/questions/13809437/What_is_loft_angle_of_Ram_Tour_Grind_Irons

https://www.golfclubspec.com/iron_results.php?id=174

It is stamped on the club at 47 degrees (same as the FX Tour Grinds of the late 90's).

 

The actual published specs for the TG-898 set were lofts of 18/21/24/28/32/36/40/44/48, per the Ram website at the time.  I've always found it odd that the clubheads came with the 47* loft stamped on the PW clubhead, differing from the published specs.  And, one degree weaker in 4-PW than the FX Nickel Tour grinds that preceeded them.

 

Go figure.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by NRJyzr

[NRJyzr]

From the Wayback Machine, found the TG-898 specs page:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/19991114012945if_/http://www.ramgolf.com:80/frame_ramgolf.html

 

trying to get an image to post, without success....

(until now)

Edited August 4, 2022 by NRJyzr

[UlfBane]

45 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

The actual published specs for the TG-898 set were lofts of 18/21/24/28/32/36/40/44/48, per the Ram website at the time.  I've always found it odd that the clubheads came with the 47* loft stamped on the PW clubhead, differing from the published specs.  And, one degree weaker in 4-PW than the FX Nickel Tour grinds that preceeded them.

 

Go figure.

 

I too wonder about published specs sometimes, that is why I am measuring as many samples as i can (I have measured 7 of the FX PWs, all at 47 degrees).

 

Wilson has a similar problem with the Staff Progressive sets of the mid 90's. Early spec sheets agree with internet postings, but a second source puts the scoring clubs at 1 degree stronger. It could be that the industry trend at that time was to refine a second offering to match the demand for wedges set at 50, 52,54,56,58,60. (49 & 47 degree PWs needed hard to find 53 & 51 degree gap wedges, available for a while, but not long).

 

Since Payne Stewart is in the ad, I thought I draw attention to the following post found HERE:

https://www.golfwrx.com/569648/getting-to-know-payne-stewart/

 

"Lamar brought the head of an old Ram 7-iron along with him to show me. Damaged and bent from the crash, the club was with Payne on his final flight. He had it with him to show his guys at Mizuno as a model for a new set of irons. That Ram 7-iron belonged to Haynes and Payne had always adored the way it looked at address.

“Payne also used my old Mizunos the last year of his life,” Haynes said.  I had received the MS-4s 10 years earlier from Payne in 1989. They were like playing with a shaft on a knife. The sweet spot was so tiny on the MS-4. They made the MP29 and 14s look like game improvement irons. Payne used those. Then Harry Taylor at Mizuno designed him an iron, which later became the MP33. The 29 and 14s were very sharp and flat-soled. Well, Payne loved this old Ram iron set that I had.. He asked for my Ram 7-iron for Harry Taylor to model his new set. He liked the way it went through the turf. He had it with him on the plane. This is the club that started the MP33.”"

 

 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, UlfBane said:

I thought I draw attention to the following post found HERE:

Wow, interesting.So Payne liked the RAM's.

[UlfBane]

17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Wow, interesting.So Payne liked the RAM's.

As mentioned earlier, so did Nick Price. Here are some screen shots taken at the 2000 Canadian open, long after Nick's contract with RAM had expired.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-07-23-9707230023-story.html

"Not every big-name player on the PGA Tour has been willing to sacrifice endorsement money for that personal attention. Nick Price played with Ram clubs during his ascent to the Tour's top ranking in 1993. But when Price sought a lucrative contract, Ram balked.

The company had spent millions of dollars promoting Price, but surveys showed that few golf fans associated Price with the clubs.

"He did not make a dent in the wall," Fortis said.

Price eventually signed with Goldwin Golf, but industry insiders swear that if you look in Price's bag, you'll find Ram Tour Grind irons."

Look at the pics and you will see both types of FX Tour Grind. Cavity back 1 iron and blade scoring clubs.

[UlfBane]

4 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

From the Wayback Machine, found the TG-898 specs page:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/19991114012945if_/http://www.ramgolf.com:80/frame_ramgolf.html

 

trying to get an image to post, without success....

(until now)

Thank you soooo much for this link. I spent the last hour poring over the various pages and I think you may have found the answer. Tear Drop bought the company in 1997 and offered products from the original dies:

 

"Tour Grind wedges are forged from the original dies in 1030 carbon steel"

https://web.archive.org/web/19991114012945if_/http://www.ramgolf.com:80/frame_ramgolf.html

 

They show a continued (from the original dies) issue of the Tom Watson 3 wedge set among other offerings.

 

This cataloge is from 1999 and in the NEWS section announces:

 

RAM® GOLF UNVEILS UPDATED TOUR GRIND® FORGED IRONS AND WEDGES

ORLANDO, FL, January 1999…
"The Tour Grind irons and wedges showcase the quality that has made RAM Golf an industry leader among touring professionals, and reaffirms the commitment to innovation that has kept us there, " said Ron Randl, Marketing Manager, RAM Golf. "Even though our existing designs remain consistently in demand, RAM Golf continues developing new and innovative designs for players at every skill level."

 

It is obvious that new "UPDATED" Tour Grind wedges are now being offerred in lofts of 54 and 56 degrees that did not exist in the pre-sale RAM line-up (There was a 56, but it had a HUGE flange on it).

 

I suspect the Pitching wedges marked 47 degrees are the early offerings post aquisition (1997-1999) and the specs published are accurate for the "UPDATED" Tour Grind offerings from 1999-(?)

https://web.archive.org/web/20000617025911fw_/http://www.ramgolf.com/news5.html

Edited August 5, 2022 by UlfBane
typo

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

5 hours ago, UlfBane said:

I have determined that these are apparantly Japan only issues.

Other than that there appears to be little, if any info on these on the internet. While they may be from the time period you suggest, the cavity backs that I believe were available in the us at that time were these.

They would have complimented the TG-898 line. The specs of which are published on the internet but the pitching wedge loft is incorrect.

https://qsponge.com/questions/13809437/What_is_loft_angle_of_Ram_Tour_Grind_Irons

https://www.golfclubspec.com/iron_results.php?id=174

It is stamped on the club at 47 degrees (same as the FX Tour Grinds of the late 90's).

 

I think you've already determined that they were a Japan-only release, so this post is late to the party. One clue for me was the S25C stamping for the steel, which is the JIS (Japan Industrial Standard) code for what I think is 1025 steel in the US. 

 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

I did a quick Japanese google search for the RAM Tour Grind Super Up irons, and had a few hits, but couldn't find anything on when they were produced. Also found a Super Up 630 model, which appeared to have a longer face heel to toe than the Super Up 645s. Hard to be sure from photos, though.

 

[UlfBane]

2 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

I think you've already determined that they were a Japan-only release, so this post is late to the party. One clue for me was the S25C stamping for the steel, which is the JIS (Japan Industrial Standard) code for what I think is 1025 steel in the US. 

 

Thank you for your research and input. If they are 1025 then I wonder if they are Endo forgings?

[UlfBane]

More evidence of 2 versions of the RAM 898 uncovered on Maltby's website.

http://ralphmaltby.com/mpf/ram/

He measures everything and puts the loft of the 1998 TG-898 5 iron at 27 degrees (this, like the 47 degree PW is identical to the ORIGINAL FX tour grind 5 iron specs). As stated above, the chart from the Way Back Machine (RAM's 2000 web page) is for the "updated" 2000 Tg-898 offerings with slightly different lofts (re-uploaded as .JPG).

Edited August 15, 2022 by UlfBane
add url

[NRJyzr]

7 hours ago, UlfBane said:

More evidence of 2 versions of the RAM 898 uncovered on Maltby's website

 

I wouldn't say that.  It's really just the actual loft of the clubhead they measured.  That difference from the published specs could come from that clubhead being hit, normal spec tolerance, the measurement tolerance between bending machines, or even a sign that the owner of that clubhead had that 5 iron bent a degree strong.  <shrug>

 

If you look through more of the MPF measurements, you can find clubheads that were measured with 25* loft, for models that have a 27* spec for that clubhead.  Clubheads can/will have their lofts change through impact with the turf, or even mats.  It's a normal consequence.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by NRJyzr

[UlfBane]

Research Update:

 

I understand, as a senior member you have the responsibility to ensure that opinions posted are backed up by evidence if possible. I respect that and so have spent the morning doing further research. I found several things of interest.

 

1. Teardrop golf aquired Tommy Armour and Ram in the Fall of 1997 and made Ram a subsidiary of T.A., moving both companies into the same building.  "Armour redesigned and relaunched its 845s series in the fall of 1997, and TearDrop planned to take advantage of the line's popularity to accelerate company growth." Checking with Ironfinder's database we can verify that Armour clubs went up 1 degree during this time period going from a 48 degree PW to a 47 degree Pw.

 

2. Teardrop went broke and sold the companies to "Canadian scooter and snowboard company Gen-X... in early 2001. Gen-X had no background in golf so it teamed up with GolfWorks and Ralph Maltby in hopes of turning chicken-you-know-what into chicken salad." So Ralph Maltby had access to both companies literature and any new old stock to take his measurements from in 2001 (only 3 years removed from the 1998 TG-898's introduction so it is entirely likely that the clubheads he measured were brand new AND he also likely had access to the actual printed loft specs when compiling data for both his book and any other research on his website). If he says the 1998 5 iron was 27 degrees it most likely WAS, after all he was THERE in the factory.

 

Now, a word about redesign. The 845 were a CAST club, so updating both looks and lofts was a fairly simple and relatively inexpensive matter of creating a SINGLE new mold.

 

The TG-898's were forged, a process usually involving 5 dies. To change lofts you would need 5 new dies, to change LOOKS you only need 1 new die (the final one). Teardrop was in financial trouble:

 

"With no marketing money, the company couldn’t promote new products, which was fine because R&D had no money to develop new products."

 

So it makes sense that they would initially use the existing dies, only providing a new FINAL die to change the LOOK (not the LOFT) of the FX Tour Grind into the 1998 TG-808. Redesigning the LOFTS of the TG-808 for 2000 would take 5 dies (and some time to prepare them no doubt).

 

To sum up, research shows that Teardrop had a penchant for redesigning and changing loft on the Tommy Armours so why not also the RAMS? Whether or not they did so on the TG-808 is not proven, But Maltby's presence at the time gives credence to the probable truthfulness of his 27 degree 5 iron measurement. That, along with the 47 degree stamping on the Pitching Wedge is pretty powerful evidence that either the 2000 TG-808's had 5 different (newly created) dies or the loft table on the 2000 RAM website could quite simply be WRONG. Who knows?

 

As to why Teardrop / Tommy Armour might downgrade the lofts of the RAM clubs while Upping the 845s and subsequent new Armour models, keep in mind that RAM had already initiated a policy of detaching itself from pro endorsements while Armour was actively signing them. "The Armour purchase helped TearDrop sign PGA Tour player Tommy Tolles to play 845s irons." Tommy Armour was to be the STAR on the PGA tour and RAM was going the way of the discount chain.

 

This kind of thinking is quite common in situations where one corporation owns 2 companies in the same market. The Saleen s7 Supercar suposedly came about because FORD had a stake in both Aston Martin and Jaguar. 

 

"The company had recently gone from minority shareholders to outright owners of Aston Martin, but they also owned Jaguar. While Aston did alright in its debut (racing) season, Jaguar was way ahead.

Jag had won the 1988 24 Hours of Le Mans and it was on its way to more successful years. What complicated things even more for Aston was that in 1989, the organizers of the 24 Hours of Le Mans announced that they were switching to 3.5-liter Formula One engines for 1991. While Ford did have access to a Cosworth 3.5-liter Formula One V8, Ford only blessed one team with it. That one team wasn’t Aston Martin.

Either Ford couldn’t afford to fund two top-flight race programs, or Ford didn’t want two brands and teams dueling for the same spot. Either way, Jag got the engine and Aston didn’t. Aston’s race program died and Jaguar’s lived on."

 

And Steve Saleen got the plans to Aston's race car as a result.

 

https://jalopnik.com/the-mysterious-disputed-birth-of-americas-greatest-sup-1675129620

histories/teardrop-golf-company-history/
https://mygolfspy.com/the-story-of-an-icon-the-tommy-armour-845s/
https://www.windtreegolf.com/ram-golf-clubs/
https://mygolfspy.com/how-golf-clubs-are-made/

Edited August 15, 2022 by UlfBane
Research Update

[@_the_crook]

On 8/15/2022 at 7:38 AM, UlfBane said:

Gen-X had no background in golf so it teamed up with GolfWorks and Ralph Maltby in hopes of turning chicken-you-know-what into chicken salad."

 

additionally, 

Gen-X and Maltby timeframe are when the TA 845FS irons were released.

the TA manufacturing had moved to China.

still have the box......

 

[OsnolaKinnard]

Are there any differences in design between the FX Pro Forged blades and rhe TG 898 or was it just a rebadge?

[UlfBane]

The 

4 minutes ago, OsnolaKinnard said:

Are there any differences in design between the FX Pro Forged blades and rhe TG 898 or was it just a rebadge?

The FX Pro-set was released in both Cavity / Blade combo AND the much rarer Full Blade set. I have not gotten my hands on the full blade set to do any measuring.

 

As far as the FX Tour Grind Blades and the 1998 TG 888 we are still trying to figure that out. My research seems to indicate that the 1998 TG 898 was indeed just a rebadge. The specs on the 2000 TG 898 are listed at a degree weaker. It appears manufacturing was being moved from the U.S. to China at this time and new forging dies could  have been made for the second half of the run. At this point there is not enough evidence to say for sure one way or the other.

 

[NRJyzr]

The TG-898s are not a rebadged FX Tour Grind, or FX Proset; they're actually slightly larger than either.

 

It would be more accurate to say the FX Forged and the blade heads from the FX Proset are from same dies as the Frequency Matched Golden Rams, possibly even the Vibration Matched Goldens, with some possible grind changes.  They're all of a similar size, smaller than the 898's.

 

[Nard_S]

11 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

FX Forged and the blade heads from the FX Proset are from same dies as the Frequency Matched Golden Rams, possibly even the Vibration Matched Goldens, with some possible grind changes.

FX Pro Set combo MB/CB use short irons of FX Tours. I've owned both still have the MB's.

[UlfBane]

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

FX Pro Set combo MB/CB use short irons of FX Tours. I've owned both still have the MB's.

You're absolutely right. I have 2 sets of the FX tour grind blades and 3 sets of the Pro-Set Cav/Mb combos and they appear identical. What I do not have are any of the 898's apart from a 56 degree sand wedge, but NRJyzr does so his observations trump any of mine. If he says they are different (not a rebadge) that's good enough for me for now.