TGM Experts: Hitter vs Swinger Tour Pros

JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
edited Aug 5, 2019 7:53pm in Instruction & Academy #1

Not sure I fully understand the difference between these 2 styles, but it seems like the "hitter's" shoulder turn comes to a stop fairly close to chest being parallel with the target line at the finish of their swing. The "swinger" on the other hand would have a fuller shoulder turn, wherein shoulders finish more perpendicular to the target line, if not even further wherein their back is turned parallel to it. The hitter then lacking the centrifugal force of the swinger, uses more right arm thrust (right handed golfer) to generate power. If this is correct I would think good examples of "hitters" are Henrik Stenson and Phil Mickelson:

Good examples of "swingers" are Adam Scott and Rory McIlroy.

Just want to make sure we're on the same before I delve further into the subject.

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Comments

  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I gotta think Phil is the ultimate swinger. (well actually Tiger, but that's another thread) :)
    John Rahm has to be a hitter...??


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  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dlygrisse said:
    I gotta think Phil is the ultimate swinger. (well actually Tiger, but that's another thread) :)
    John Rahm has to be a hitter...??

    What do you look for to determine how to categorize them?

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  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Hitting: angled hinge where the club face is at right angles to the path from p6-p8
    Swinging: Horizontal hinge where the toe points to the sky from hip to hip.
    Hitting: Short back swing and "flying elbow" at the top - aiming for a thrust down and through impact.
    Swinging: Possible longer back swing, and trail forearm vertical at the top - aiming for a pitch-like motion where the trail elbow leads the hands for a while before it's released.
    Hitting: Slow transition. Patience is required to get the trail hand in position to thrust without cranking the club face open.
    Swinging: Powerful transition, that is used to generate swing speed, where you leave the hands behind and just turn hard. A wide open club face after transition closes as part of the release.

    There's also a thing called 4 barrel hitting. It is basically a swing with a hit added towards impact. And it's supposed to be the most powerful of them all. And to the extent that you will see hitters on TV these days, they are likely to be 4 barrel hitters.

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Nicklaus hitter? Reverse C were hitters? Is that why it's not prevalent today?

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  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    No. Reverse C has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with throw vs thrust. Think javelin throw vs shot put. The javelin thrower leads with the pivot and then the pitch elbow follows. A chain reaction. The shot putter uses his pivot as a launching pad. The same difference is supposed to be present between hitters and swingers in golf. But I'm not sure how easy it is to find a pure hitter out there. Not even sure that it's a possibility.

    Brian Gay could perhaps be classified as a hitter. And Arnold Palmer. I once thought that Jesper Parnevik was a hitter - he certainly had angled hinge with his irons...

    Just to complicate matters: In swinging, there is extencior action. It means that you use the trail arm to extend the lead arm. Or in today's lingo: To create and sustain width. While a hitter is supposed to thrust down towards the ball, the swinger uses the trail arm to maintain extension. But even a swinger straightens the elbow eventually, usually from a pitch position. But a swinger can also have a punch elbow. Rory has that. I wouldn't classify Rory as a hitter, though. It's supposed to fit those who are strong and bulky, and not so flexible.

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Furyk had most pronounced punch elbow of any top player I can think of. But otherwise seemed to be leading the clubhead into the ball with body rotation like a swinger. What was he?

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  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Hitter?

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  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Lynn Blake is one of the foremost experts on this. Explains hitting here:

    Demonstrates the difference here:

  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If you fall into the morass of TGM, you will recover in only two or three years. Trying to chase positions is the worst possible thing you can do to your swing.

  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @farmer said:
    If you fall into the morass of TGM, you will recover in only two or three years. Trying to chase positions is the worst possible thing you can do to your swing.

    Yep, many times the unathletic golfer who sucks falls into this trap to improve. That’s why there are so many wackys on here commenting on those threads.

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Furyk is a "hitter", can we agree on that much?

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  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Lefthook said:
    Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

    can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

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  • chivachiva Members Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @JD3 said:

    @Lefthook said:
    Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

    can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

    I don't mean to be rude, but it's in the little yellow book. You probably should read the book before embarking on this discussion because it will answer most, if not all of your questions about this stuff.

    OB and water hazards you flunkies
  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @JD3 said:

    @Lefthook said:
    Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

    can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

    Pulls from the lead shoulder and lead arm.

    That's the easy part to understand. What I don't understand is how drive-loading can be an alternativ and not just a small add-on. Rotation is vital in all golf swings.

    Swinging is about dragging, hitting is supposed to be about driving (and pushing). I can see the former and I can see how the latter creates a variation to the former, but I have a big problem seeing a hittting pattern that doesn't rely 90+% on swing forces. Then there's a thing in TGM called "right arm swinging" (for right handers). A right arm swing happens when the right arm & shoulder does what the left arm & shoulder does in most golf swings. A right arm swinger will typically have very open shoulders and hips at impact. I do not recall at the moment if right arm swing is in the book, I think it is briefly mentioned in the 7th edition.

    There's a lot of TGM knowledge that lived and still lives in the TGM community that never entered any of the editions of the book. E.g. HK identified an increasing number of release triggers that was never included, and there are variations to the hitting pattern that has never been described in any of the versions. I learned about a few of those in private conversations with very knowledgeable TGM followers. Homer produced a handful of bulletins that gives some context to TGM and there are also a few videos and a few hours of audio tape that adds to the picture. I was so lucky to spend time on internet with Lynn Blake and his followers many years ago, when Lynn decided to enlighten the world about TGM. He produced and shared some very valuable insights based on TGM. I also aquired some very good internet friends in that period, and one of them sent me some "cliff notes" - audio tapes, the TGM bulletins and some very rare video material with Homer Kelley present. I even have a recording of his last TGM speech. He literally died on stage, talking about TGM.

    But Homer Kelley did not have a precise understanding of Newton mechanics. The yellow book suffers from that. He was unclear about the role of centrifugal force, it seems like he regarded it as a force that could produce swing speed. But all centrifugal force does is maintain speed by keeping an object in orbit. At the same time he used the term G.O.L.F in the title, meaning geometrically oriented linear force. He clearly understood that any force that produces speed has to have the same direction as the club head is moving at the moment the force produces speed. But IMO he didn't see the whole picture.

    IMO the differentiation between hitting and swinging highlights the weakest part of The Golfing Machine. The hitting pattern and the mechanical explanation can't stand on it's own feet.

    The best part of the book is a vocabulary that enables us to discuss some very real stroke variations. Even the most persistent TGM critics needs the TGM terminology to criticize TGM. The parts about planes and plane shifts are very interesting and so are the parts about hinge action. The understanding of impact and ball compression foregoes a lot of what we have learned from Trackman and other launch monitors for the last years. And the book contains a very good understanding of variations regarding loading and releasing the club - and release triggers. Among a bunch of other things. But TGM is not peer-reviewed science. It has a lot of good things and quite a few substantial flaws which makes it a very difficult book to dechiffer. The parts about planes and plane-shifts are partly wrong and partly right. E.g. if you flatten the shaft in transition and hit a draw, the club shaft is likely to point outside the ball at P5 when you look at the swing down the line. This is a part that TGM folks seems to not understand. They think the golf club is supposed to be moved on a flat plane at all times, something that has been proven to be wrong in real science and less scientifice but nevertheless rigourus empirical investigations.

    I feel like today's detailed investigations into the golf swing from Sasho McKenzie and others have made TGM somewhat irrelevant. And the knowledge that we see here on gwx from iteach, Monte, Waldron and a couple of others have surpassed TGM with a solid margin. Personally I struggle to see whether the width that is taught by these three teachers (and others) constitute a 3 barrel swing or a 4 barrel hit by TGM, but I don't think it is very relevant to sort that one out. At the same time, HK described extencior action, which is literally the same thing.

    TGM is a fascinating book, but not worth the time if you're just looking for info that can be used to improve your golf game. It is a mix of insights and flaws that takes years to sort out. But if you're into the history of golf etc, it may be worthwhile. And if so you should read "Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine". It's a bio that will make you love the man and his quest for the truth.

  • AtraynAtrayn ClubWRX Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I started reading this thread thinking..."here we go again...they're not going to understand what they don't realize..." I'm an engineer myself and dove into TGM for a while early on chasing positions and ended up driving myself crazy.
    Thank you so much Lefthook! Every once in a while a nugget like this appears and restores my faith in the content on this site!

    "Someday, it may even be possible to construct some kind of machine
    that will swing a golf club as well as it can possibly be done." "That is probably as close to
    the perfect swing as it would be possible for human beings to get." Ben Hogan 1965 SI

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  • BabydaddyBabydaddy Members Posts: 935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Lefthook said:

    @JD3 said:

    @Lefthook said:
    Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

    can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

    Pulls from the lead shoulder and lead arm.

    That's the easy part to understand. What I don't understand is how drive-loading can be an alternativ and not just a small add-on. Rotation is vital in all golf swings.

    Swinging is about dragging, hitting is supposed to be about driving (and pushing). I can see the former and I can see how the latter creates a variation to the former, but I have a big problem seeing a hittting pattern that doesn't rely 90+% on swing forces. Then there's a thing in TGM called "right arm swinging" (for right handers). A right arm swing happens when the right arm & shoulder does what the left arm & shoulder does in most golf swings. A right arm swinger will typically have very open shoulders and hips at impact. I do not recall at the moment if right arm swing is in the book, I think it is briefly mentioned in the 7th edition.

    There's a lot of TGM knowledge that lived and still lives in the TGM community that never entered any of the editions of the book. E.g. HK identified an increasing number of release triggers that was never included, and there are variations to the hitting pattern that has never been described in any of the versions. I learned about a few of those in private conversations with very knowledgeable TGM followers. Homer produced a handful of bulletins that gives some context to TGM and there are also a few videos and a few hours of audio tape that adds to the picture. I was so lucky to spend time on internet with Lynn Blake and his followers many years ago, when Lynn decided to enlighten the world about TGM. He produced and shared some very valuable insights based on TGM. I also aquired some very good internet friends in that period, and one of them sent me some "cliff notes" - audio tapes, the TGM bulletins and some very rare video material with Homer Kelley present. I even have a recording of his last TGM speech. He literally died on stage, talking about TGM.

    But Homer Kelley did not have a precise understanding of Newton mechanics. The yellow book suffers from that. He was unclear about the role of centrifugal force, it seems like he regarded it as a force that could produce swing speed. But all centrifugal force does is maintain speed by keeping an object in orbit. At the same time he used the term G.O.L.F in the title, meaning geometrically oriented linear force. He clearly understood that any force that produces speed has to have the same direction as the club head is moving at the moment the force produces speed. But IMO he didn't see the whole picture.

    IMO the differentiation between hitting and swinging highlights the weakest part of The Golfing Machine. The hitting pattern and the mechanical explanation can't stand on it's own feet.

    The best part of the book is a vocabulary that enables us to discuss some very real stroke variations. Even the most persistent TGM critics needs the TGM terminology to criticize TGM. The parts about planes and plane shifts are very interesting and so are the parts about hinge action. The understanding of impact and ball compression foregoes a lot of what we have learned from Trackman and other launch monitors for the last years. And the book contains a very good understanding of variations regarding loading and releasing the club - and release triggers. Among a bunch of other things. But TGM is not peer-reviewed science. It has a lot of good things and quite a few substantial flaws which makes it a very difficult book to dechiffer. The parts about planes and plane-shifts are partly wrong and partly right. E.g. if you flatten the shaft in transition and hit a draw, the club shaft is likely to point outside the ball at P5 when you look at the swing down the line. This is a part that TGM folks seems to not understand. They think the golf club is supposed to be moved on a flat plane at all times, something that has been proven to be wrong in real science and less scientifice but nevertheless rigourus empirical investigations.

    I feel like today's detailed investigations into the golf swing from Sasho McKenzie and others have made TGM somewhat irrelevant. And the knowledge that we see here on gwx from iteach, Monte, Waldron and a couple of others have surpassed TGM with a solid margin. Personally I struggle to see whether the width that is taught by these three teachers (and others) constitute a 3 barrel swing or a 4 barrel hit by TGM, but I don't think it is very relevant to sort that one out. At the same time, HK described extencior action, which is literally the same thing.

    TGM is a fascinating book, but not worth the time if you're just looking for info that can be used to improve your golf game. It is a mix of insights and flaws that takes years to sort out. But if you're into the history of golf etc, it may be worthwhile. And if so you should read "Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine". It's a bio that will make you love the man and his quest for the truth.

    A great and thoughtful post- thanks for taking the time to post it.

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