Release

iceman1118iceman1118 NortheastMembers Posts: 10 ✭✭

Hey guys,

I have been trying to fully understand how to release the club to the target. I have Monte's videos, and one that really speaks to me is the Plane and Release by feel video on YT, and when I try to let things happen naturally I just feel as if my release starts sooner than it should. I also have the feel, not necessarily what I am attempting to do, of a flip with my hands and wrists. But I also feel that is a result of me being relaxed and letting things happen naturally. My swing thought is to swing and release through the ball and it generally produces pretty consistent results. But with today's instruction what is being called the "modern release" where it seems more rotational and letting natural forces, not the hands and wrists, release the club. But when I attempt this I feel nothing but tension in my forearms and wrists in an attempt to hold off the release, and quite frankly mixed results. I have taken a couple of lessons from our club pro and he is a big proponent of taking the hands, wrists, and arms totally out of the swing and letting torso and hip rotation square the face naturally. But I am having such a hard time with because I don't understand how there can be a golf swing without your arms doing something, i.e. swinging.

I know this is probably a loaded questionbut what exactly is the endgame for the release? Is it the "older" theory where hands and wrists need to be "active" or is it this new style which is built what seems to be purely on rotation and taking the hands totally out of the equation? Or, as Monte loves to put it, is this one of those areas where he says in golf instruction it's some, meaning a little bit of both? Any info is greatly appreciated as I am starting to lose sleep researching and trying to understand this.

Thanks in advance guys

Driver: Titleist TS2
3 Wood: Titleist TS2
Irons: Titleist 718 CB 3-P
Wedges: Vokey 52 - 08F, 58 - 10S
Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2
Ball: Titleist Pro V1

Comments

  • trileriantrilerian Members Posts: 411 ✭✭✭✭

    The only thing I can say is that I feel your pain. My release is horrible, as far as aesthetics and golf instruction is concerned, but when I try to apply what I believe is supposed to be a good release, nothing but bad things happen. Obviously my conception of the release is not correct either, and it seems something that is impossible to truly put into words...

  • iceman1118iceman1118 NortheastMembers Posts: 10 ✭✭

    Pain is real in this situation to be honest. It is also probably a function of information overload. I also think what makes most of the golf swing so confusing is all of the different theories out there. I am on my third year of golf, I am down to a 9 handicap from the tips at my home club and honestly feel as if Monte's videos and a lot of Dan's posts have been hitting home with me, but something possessed me to take a lesson and now I am confused as ever.

    Driver: Titleist TS2
    3 Wood: Titleist TS2
    Irons: Titleist 718 CB 3-P
    Wedges: Vokey 52 - 08F, 58 - 10S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2
    Ball: Titleist Pro V1

  • trileriantrilerian Members Posts: 411 ✭✭✭✭

    @iceman1118 said:
    Pain is real in this situation to be honest. It is also probably a function of information overload. I also think what makes most of the golf swing so confusing is all of the different theories out there. I am on my third year of golf, I am down to a 9 handicap from the tips at my home club and honestly feel as if Monte's videos and a lot of Dan's posts have been hitting home with me, but something possessed me to take a lesson and now I am confused as ever.

    And that is the crux. I have had lessons where I have been told to just let the hands roll over, and I have had lessons where the instructor wanted me to hit half wedge shots feeling like I held on to the face the entire shot. He promoted the feel of the bowed lead wrist. But then you hear instructors saying that holding on is bad too. So really, confusion...

  • DShepleyDShepley Members Posts: 57 ✭✭

    Read "The Release - Golf's Moment of Truth" by Jim Hardy and you will understand the release much better. Basically, from a down the line view of the swing, if your lead arm lines up with the ball, you NEED to uncock your wrists and roll the face closed to hit the ball. If from a down the line view, your trail arm is pointing at the ball, your clubface will already be square to it's path and you DON'T need to uncock your wrists and roll the face over, this swing relies much more on rotation of the body. Understand where your swing falls to know which advice relating to the release you need to follow.

  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Release is a result, you can’t manufacture it. If you have a flippy release, your club face is likely too open to something. You should never be trying to hold off. Modern release is a marketing term. The downswing takes .20 seconds. Conscious movement takes .25 seconds. It’s a reaction. You can control setup, backswing and first transition move. Release, exit path, finish or lack there of, etc., are all reactionary movements.

  • iceman1118iceman1118 NortheastMembers Posts: 10 ✭✭

    @MonteScheinblum said:
    Release is a result, you can’t manufacture it. If you have a flippy release, your club face is likely too open to something. You should never be trying to hold off. Modern release is a marketing term. The downswing takes .20 seconds. Conscious movement takes .25 seconds. It’s a reaction. You can control setup, backswing and first transition move. Release, exit path, finish or lack there of, etc., are all reactionary movements.

    Thanks for the response Monte.

    Forgive my ignorance, but when you say the club face is open to something, are you talking about excessive wrist action forcing the club face to open, too weak of a grip, or something else? I definitely notice when I strengthen my grip a bit that things flow more naturally, especially contact and hand/swing path, but sometimes I get wrist pain from a strong grip. I apologize for not having a video of myself as I know this is extremely general.

    I have all of your videos, which do you suggest I study in detail to have a better understanding of potential causes?

    Thanks again.

    Driver: Titleist TS2
    3 Wood: Titleist TS2
    Irons: Titleist 718 CB 3-P
    Wedges: Vokey 52 - 08F, 58 - 10S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2
    Ball: Titleist Pro V1

  • malarijmmalarijm Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 24 ✭✭
    edited Aug 12, 2019 6:18pm #8

    @iceman1118 said:
    Hey guys,

    I have taken a couple of lessons from our club pro and he is a big proponent of taking the hands, wrists, and arms totally out of the swing and letting torso and hip rotation square the face naturally. But I am having such a hard time with because I don't understand how there can be a golf swing without your arms doing something, i.e. swinging.

    I am in almost the exact same boat as you in experience and handicap and have done a ton of experimenting with concepts/thoughts/intentions in the golf swing. I have heard much the same about taking the hand and arms out of the swing and I have surmised that the concept is best applied to speed generation vs literally making a stiff pivot around your spine. I don't try to generate speed with my arms and wrists (in either the backswing or the downswing), but rather let my arms swing as a result of the energy and momentum generated by a full turn. The Shawn Clement ball on a string concept really resonates with me - my arm/club unit is the string, the clubface is the ball, and my body/shoulders are the hand/wrist applying energy. The shoulder sockets down are just applying the force that is generated by the body.

    Once I felt the sensation of creating speed by using my body to swing my arms and whip the clubhead (which is the "release"), I was no longer hitting at the ball with my arms or manipulating the face loft or direction and that's where the "clubface squares naturally" concept works. When I am doing things symptomatic of arm swinging like lifting my arms, fanning the clubface, etc I need some compensation on the way down to get the clubface back to square. However, at the end of the day, IMO golf is athletic endeavor in hand/eye coordination and swinging like a robot with total exclusion of micro-adjustments with hands, arms, whatever when you have uneven footing, lies, is where Monte's "some" seems really wise.

    Just my two cents, would love others' feedback on what I think I am feeling

    M6 9
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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Monte nailed it. Good news is you can train the swing in parts. Learn to hit just from the delivery position, then arm parallel, then full. Slowly then pick up pace. Do drills with feedback, etc. good resources such as Tyler Ferrell’s stock tour swing book, Monte stuff, amg, ferrell website, etc.
    Arms have to move fast right after transition - long way to go and if you don’t get them moving fast early they don’t move fast late - and yes they have to be sequenced with the body. Everything gets moving back to the ball at pretty much the same time - it’s the how that matters.



  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MonteScheinblum said:
    Release is a result, you can’t manufacture it. If you have a flippy release, your club face is likely too open to something. You should never be trying to hold off. Modern release is a marketing term. The downswing takes .20 seconds. Conscious movement takes .25 seconds. It’s a reaction. You can control setup, backswing and first transition move. Release, exit path, finish or lack there of, etc., are all reactionary movements.

    Monte is correct about the duration of the downswing and the time it to consciously do something like releasing the club but that has little to do with the issue at hand. The release can't be something we decide to do as the club is moving toward the ball, but it can be pattern developed before we begin to swing. An analogous situation is that of a baseball pitcher. He varies his release depending on the pitch he is throwing, but he plans for that before his arm moves forward. Through practice he has developed a pattern that produces a fast ball release, curve ball release and a slider release. As a golfer I have a standard release and a punch shot release. That is programed in before I start to swing he club.

    Steve

  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @iceman1118 said:

    @MonteScheinblum said:
    Release is a result, you can’t manufacture it. If you have a flippy release, your club face is likely too open to something. You should never be trying to hold off. Modern release is a marketing term. The downswing takes .20 seconds. Conscious movement takes .25 seconds. It’s a reaction. You can control setup, backswing and first transition move. Release, exit path, finish or lack there of, etc., are all reactionary movements.

    Thanks for the response Monte.

    Forgive my ignorance, but when you say the club face is open to something, are you talking about excessive wrist action forcing the club face to open, too weak of a grip, or something else? I definitely notice when I strengthen my grip a bit that things flow more naturally, especially contact and hand/swing path, but sometimes I get wrist pain from a strong grip. I apologize for not having a video of myself as I know this is extremely general.

    I have all of your videos, which do you suggest I study in detail to have a better understanding of potential causes?

    Thanks again.

    Open to path, arc, target, etc., excessively.

  • iceman1118iceman1118 NortheastMembers Posts: 10 ✭✭

    This is all great stuff. Thanks guys.

    Driver: Titleist TS2
    3 Wood: Titleist TS2
    Irons: Titleist 718 CB 3-P
    Wedges: Vokey 52 - 08F, 58 - 10S
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2
    Ball: Titleist Pro V1

  • ZitlowZitlow Members Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭

    The release is a reaction and the proper sequence determines the timing.

  • ketoketo Members Posts: 86 ✭✭✭
    edited Aug 20, 2019 7:15pm #14

    I'm trying something different for myself. I've golfed over 40 years and nobody, in many lessons, taught me this, though I know it's out there. It's more about the swing itself, and this won't work for everyone as it takes athletics and mobility. But I'm now feeling like swinging a heavy weight on the end of a dead straight stick and, on a full swing, want to bury the weight in the ground a foot in front of me. THAT is the release point, which varys by length of club, intended shot (punch lob drive etc). I do a 3-9 drill at pretty full speed before a shot, to ingrain the path, and my backswing is just an extension (or not even, could be same length) of the 3 o'clock position. Hands, per Byron, just about as close to the body as I can get them, I'm much closer to vertical shaft on the plane than I was before.

    My drill is 3-9, start slow, always move weight from back to front via a Nicklaus type heel raise & plant for timing. Let the club really flop at the top back (wrong word, maybe let the head drop down almost as much as flexibility allows? more on this follows), the more you do it up to an extent, the more lag, make that angle between club and rear arm almost as small as possible.....depends a lot on wrist flexibility I guess, and one could overdo it, but for me as I build speed I can literally feel the right stopping point, because if you get out of line or too long or short, you can feel the head move (in your hands) as you begin pull that weighted stick down into the arc, and the weight tries to get on the right path. Build up speed and let the follow through flow through, but keep the backswing at least fully connected tricep to pec, or I get long and loopy - ymmv and I'm not talking pro level swing here. My backswing used to be low and slow and end up too long and too far behind me, but now much much quicker, throw the clubhead into top position while still focusing on the intended line across my toes. Makes it easy to add tension to the twisting body for power once I move my weight to the front foot and begin the downswing, instead of going up slow and starting from a much less coiled position.

    I could write a novel, but the usual things about posture, grip, balance etc all apply. The ball just gets in the way, I don't manipulate my hands/wrists at all. The more compact I make my grip (shorter up and down the grip), the fre-er I can swing the weighted end towards my target release point. I don't think overlap/interlock matters much, I use interlock and a mildly but definitely strong grip.

    All my adjustments for grip, curve, length of club, etc are done in 3-9 prior to the actual swing, but I do a fairly full cut to feel where the speed is going to be. Back to aim point, a punch out of rough or tree trouble with shaping might have the ball in the back of my stance and an aim point below ground level, though still in front of the ball. Straight 7i, a foot in front of me. Driver, I might try and throw it just below straight out in front of me 90*, head/face of the club should be past the bottom of the arc at contact.

    It's way closer to a baseball swing than I ever thought.

    I watched JThomas hit a driver on the weekend that was exactly what I'm trying to describe. I don't have his mobility strength and flexibility, to take it further back and to get way up on the toes and outside of the lead foot, but in the end he's still just trying to make the weighted end of a straight stick go as fast as he can, and be at peak speed juuuuuust past impact (so still accelerating through).

    Working for me so far but be careful, I've strained my lower neck/upper back a bit overdoing the practice, though I'm not the strongest or most fit and getting older.

    Don't know if this was even worth posting, and it takes personal fine tuning for sure. And an aside, this had taught me why better players like offset less, and how it could create hooks more readily. Huh.

  • SilkySilky Members Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @iceman1118
    Here are some of my takeaways from this forum that may be useful to you.
    When I tried the Monte's horizontal or helicopter swing, I felt I could swing the club easily with powerful release, but I had difficulty adopting that power in the usual golf swing with the forward bend to the ball on the ground. My light bulb moment came from the recognition that I need to steepen my shoulder turn more than I used to. Now, in my backswing, my intention is to trace the target line with the left shoulder and during release my drill is to trace the target line with the right shoulder. This naturally forces the slight left side bend in the backswing and a right side tilt in the downswing.
    One of the gems I gathered is from Jim Waldron. If I could cite him correctly, his definition for the Transition move is from the top of swing to P6 solely driven by the lower body with the upper body, arms and hands passive. Now you might want to focus on how the hips move during transition and release. My intention if to shift and rotate as if to hit the ball with my right hip.
    The above swing thoughts and drills make sense to me now - in terms of geometry and mechanics. I wish I had known these 30 years ago.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,223 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Silky said:
    @iceman1118
    Here are some of my takeaways from this forum that may be useful to you.
    When I tried the Monte's horizontal or helicopter swing, I felt I could swing the club easily with powerful release, but I had difficulty adopting that power in the usual golf swing with the forward bend to the ball on the ground. My light bulb moment came from the recognition that I need to steepen my shoulder turn more than I used to. Now, in my backswing, my intention is to trace the target line with the left shoulder and during release my drill is to trace the target line with the right shoulder. This naturally forces the slight left side bend in the backswing and a right side tilt in the downswing.
    One of the gems I gathered is from Jim Waldron. If I could cite him correctly, his definition for the Transition move is from the top of swing to P6 solely driven by the lower body with the upper body, arms and hands passive. Now you might want to focus on how the hips move during transition and release. My intention if to shift and rotate as if to hit the ball with my right hip.
    The above swing thoughts and drills make sense to me now - in terms of geometry and mechanics. I wish I had known these 30 years ago.

    No not entirely by lower body. Its a blend of hips lateral shift and rotate, core rotation and chest rotation and torso right tilting. Need all of those for proper Transition.

    What you dont need is any arm muscles moving the arms down out and forward - IF your tempo is in the ballpark ie not way too fast.

  • SilkySilky Members Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the corrections, Jim!

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