Proprioceptive Skills

One of the big problems I had was thinking I was doing one thing while actually doing something else. I videoed myself a while back and it has made all the difference. I know you were asking for drills, but I would begin by figuring out what I was really doing. There are a lot of helpful, knowledgeable people on this site that can help you out. Get a video of yourself. It will really speed up your improvement.

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1326652684' post='4088585']
My game is a god-awful mess right now (at least from a full swing perspective). While that is the impetus for this post, it is not the point.

My question is 'are there drills that help improve your proprioceptive skills (ability to accurately sense what your body is actually doing)'. My assumption here is that an improvement in this skill would improve the results from a serious golfer's practice sessions.

From what I can tell my proprioceptive skills (on a normalized basis) are horrible. I'm sure that most golfers struggle with this at times. But from what I can tell I am way below normal here. And I was wondering if there are drills (that would probably have NOTHING to do with golf) that might be useful here.

I have never seen this discussed specifically, even though it is my sense that this is an issue for many golfers. It seems to me that better proprioceptive skills would be HUGELY helpful to the typical (serious) golfer and lack of these skills is a SERIOUS problem for many serious golfers. But I have never seen this discussed.

Thoughts/comments?

dave
[/quote]

According to Paul Chek ,proprioception is the awareness of posture ,movements and changes in equilibrium and the knowledge of position, weight and the resistance of objects in relation to the body
One of the exercises that I do is to stand on one leg and see how long i can hold this position.Then I close my eyes and do the same thing .Because your eyes are an important factor in your awareness of where your body is in space,closing your eyes and balancing in this fashion will force you to be much more dependent on the proprioceptors in your feet.The average for tour players is around 30 seconds with their eyes closed.i do not know whether this is a proprioception exercise per se,but bouncing a ball on the face of the club is another good exercise.Similarly bouncing a ball on a rubber hammer and walking around is another excellent and challenging exercise.
You might want to check out Michael Lavery's book "Whole Brain Planet"

Dave, I have never heard the term you used before, but what you are describing are a lot of the techniques and skills musicians use on a regular basis. I mention the similarities between music and golf on these forums a lot because the things I teach my (music) students can be applied to golf also with a little thought.

These 1/2 foam rolls can be used for "proprioceptive neuromuscular training" for the full swing or putting.

Get a pair of these and place them the width of your stance either parallel or perpendicular to your line. Get on to of them and make your putting or swing motion. Start w/out a club and build up to slow swings w a club. Make 5 or 10 attempts, do a couple sets, and repeat 4 or 5 times a day. This is a GREAT way to learn how to stabilize your putting stroke.

I have mentioned these drills and others many times and always get zero responses. Once you see Paul Chek mentioned it really indicates where fitness training and golf have changed in just the last 2 years.

The most basic training one can do is practice barefoot (or flipflops or sneakers) and only use golf shoes to play. The lack of stability forces the body to learn how stabilize itself w/out the aid of golf shoes.

for me its more important to know what the club face is doing, then what my body is doing. sometimes we get too focused on trying to keep an arm straight or trying to initiate a motion with the knees, or dipping an elbow into the side, that we are oblivious as to what the club face is doing. its been very helpful for me to take videos and to use a mirror to understand the effect that body motions have on the club face. when you get good, you dont think about your arms being too outside or the lack of flex in a leg. instead you feel the face open and close. it becomes you.

thats what makes golf so hard. i can teach a 5 year old to hit a tennis ball in one minute. because the racket is just an extension of the hands. now we've all seen an adult man take a swing at a golf ball for the first time and whiff.

Proprioceptive skill?

Whatchu talkin bout Dave?
[attachment=984191:arnold.jpeg]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1326654007' post='4088715']
One of the big problems I had was thinking I was doing one thing while actually doing something else. I videoed myself a while back and it has made all the difference. I know you were asking for drills, but I would begin by figuring out what I was really doing. There are a lot of helpful, knowledgeable people on this site that can help you out. Get a video of yourself. It will really speed up your improvement.
[/quote]

My 'problem' is that it takes a video to determine what i am doing. When my intent (for example) is to 'take a more vertical shoulder turn on the backswing' I can't tell if I did it nor not without a video (and I own a camcorder and video software). But I really can't tell what is going on via the 2 inch LCD screen on my camcorder. And going home to find out what a single swing did, is inefficient.

dave

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1326654126' post='4088725']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1326652684' post='4088585']
My game is a god-awful mess right now (at least from a full swing perspective). While that is the impetus for this post, it is not the point.

My question is 'are there drills that help improve your proprioceptive skills (ability to accurately sense what your body is actually doing)'. My assumption here is that an improvement in this skill would improve the results from a serious golfer's practice sessions.

From what I can tell my proprioceptive skills (on a normalized basis) are horrible. I'm sure that most golfers struggle with this at times. But from what I can tell I am way below normal here. And I was wondering if there are drills (that would probably have NOTHING to do with golf) that might be useful here.

I have never seen this discussed specifically, even though it is my sense that this is an issue for many golfers. It seems to me that better proprioceptive skills would be HUGELY helpful to the typical (serious) golfer and lack of these skills is a SERIOUS problem for many serious golfers. But I have never seen this discussed.

Thoughts/comments?

dave
[/quote]

According to Paul Chek ,proprioception is the awareness of posture ,movements and changes in equilibrium and the knowledge of position, weight and the resistance of objects in relation to the body
One of the exercises that I do is to stand on one leg and see how long i can hold this position.Then I close my eyes and do the same thing .Because your eyes are an important factor in your awareness of where your body is in space,closing your eyes and balancing in this fashion will force you to be much more dependent on the proprioceptors in your feet.The average for tour players is around 30 seconds with their eyes closed.i do not know whether this is a proprioception exercise per se,but bouncing a ball on the face of the club is another good exercise.Similarly bouncing a ball on a rubber hammer and walking around is another excellent and challenging exercise.
You might want to check out Michael Lavery's book "Whole Brain Planet"
[/quote]

Thanks for the comments/info/book suggest. It is at least something to look into.

dave

Maybe I missed the point of the op.

Gallwey "The Inner Game of Golf" is a great book that can help w awareness. .

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1326654266' post='4088739']
Dave, I have never heard the term you used before, but what you are describing are a lot of the techniques and skills musicians use on a regular basis. I mention the similarities between music and golf on these forums a lot because the things I teach my (music) students can be applied to golf also with a little thought.
[/quote]

An interesting comment. While I was never more than a 'high single digit handicap musician' on any of the instruments that I have played (piano, guitar, bass guitar, string bass, trombone), this is an interesting perspective from which to view 'my problem'.

My experience is that golf is VERY/VERY different in one important perspective. Assume that I was going to some 'XYZ place' where 'XYZ' might be guitar, bass guitar, string bass, piano, or trombone heaven - some idyllic place where all you did was play your instrument as much as you wanted. There was unlimited 'support' (where 'support' would typically take the form of music, required backup musician, perfect acoustics, perfect instruments, great recording technology, etc). Further assume that there was no real instruction involved - just a perfect environment. I can't imagine leaving such a place after a week of two and not 'being better' (measured by my ability).

But in an equivalent 'golf place' leaving with worse full swing results than I came in with - hardly surprising (I'm not saying 'expected', but I would not be surprised).

dave

These 1/2 foam rolls can be used for "proprioceptive neuromuscular training" for the full swing or putting.

 

Get a pair of these and place them the width of your stance either parallel or perpendicular to your line. Get on to of them and make your putting or swing motion. Start w/out a club and build up to slow swings w a club. Make 5 or 10 attempts, do a couple sets, and repeat 4 or 5 times a day. This is a GREAT way to learn how to stabilize your putting stroke.

 

I have mentioned these drills and others many times and always get zero responses. Once you see Paul Chek mentioned it really indicates where fitness training and golf have changed in just the last 2 years.

 

The most basic training one can do is practice barefoot (or flipflops or sneakers) and only use golf shoes to play. The lack of stability forces the body to learn how stabilize itself w/out the aid of golf shoes.

While it is not what I would think would address teh 'problem that I am sensing', who knows.

Is there a link or something other than the image posted? Or maybe if I look into Paul's book it will pop ut at me.

dave

Closing your eyes is definitely the simplest and best drills for this proprioception. Kind of like meditation in a way as well.

I do specific exercises for body awareness, my coach has me do an awful lot of exercises on 1 leg & with my eyes closed. Doing anything which involves balance forces you to be more aware of your limbs & how they affect your centre of gravity etc. for example moving your arm to the side shifts your balance point & forces your body to take account of the moving limb to be able to maintain balance (if that makes sense). My awareness of my body movements has improved dramatically since working on my balance, I suggest starting there, even brushing your teeth on 1 leg is good, while your focus is elsewhere your body can subconsciously work on our balance.

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1326662512' post='4089373']


While it is not what I would think would address teh 'problem that I am sensing', who knows.

Is there a link or something other than the image posted? Or maybe if I look into Paul's book it will pop ut at me.

dave



[/quote]

"Feel is not reel." The Gallwey book will help w awareness. How to become aware and how to implement what you learn in your swing.



I don't work on propreceptivity specifically although adding instability into any activity will improve it, but on a subconscious level. For example standing on one leg - eyes closed, single leg squats, 3 point planks, etc are helpful in a general sense, but don't directly go to curing a swing flaw.

The drill I posted above directly attacks a lack of stability in the putting stroke. I don't know if focusing on a general increase in proprioceptivity is the most direct way to improve the golf swing. To bring it back to music would you work on your hearing to provide better feedback if you're goal was to learn a few new chords on the guitar?

Feel has never been real for me either, it has always been something I have struggled with. I get criticized all the time from some of my buddies for how much video I use but its the method that works the best for me. I have two things I fight in my swing, I get a little long at the top at times and my tempo gets too fast at times, I can't feel either one of these things when they happen. When I am long at the top it feels the same to me as when I am in the position I want to be, usually I don't figure out that im long until I start seeing the driver clubhead out of my left eye at the top, but with video I can see it right away and go about working at it. Getting too fast is a bigger problem, and one I have even less awareness of, I really need video to see what I am doing so I can go about fixing it.

I like the advice of hitting balls with your eyes closed, its a good drill, you can feel things much better in your swing than you can with your eyes open.

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1326662288' post='4089361']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1326654266' post='4088739']
Dave, I have never heard the term you used before, but what you are describing are a lot of the techniques and skills musicians use on a regular basis. I mention the similarities between music and golf on these forums a lot because the things I teach my (music) students can be applied to golf also with a little thought.
[/quote]

An interesting comment. While I was never more than a 'high single digit handicap musician' on any of the instruments that I have played (piano, guitar, bass guitar, string bass, trombone), this is an interesting perspective from which to view 'my problem'.

My experience is that golf is VERY/VERY different in one important perspective. Assume that I was going to some 'XYZ place' where 'XYZ' might be guitar, bass guitar, string bass, piano, or trombone heaven - some idyllic place where all you did was play your instrument as much as you wanted. There was unlimited 'support' (where 'support' would typically take the form of music, required backup musician, perfect acoustics, perfect instruments, great recording technology, etc). Further assume that there was no real instruction involved - just a perfect environment. I can't imagine leaving such a place after a week of two and not 'being better' (measured by my ability).

But in an equivalent 'golf place' leaving with worse full swing results than I came in with - hardly surprising (I'm not saying 'expected', but I would not be surprised).

dave


[/quote]

I was thinking of the drumset, which is one of the more physical instruments you can find. It requires a high amount of coordination, flexibility and balance in order to play well. When my students go through technique changes on that instrument (like a swing change in golf), I often have them play blindfolded so that I can get a sense of how the changes are progressing. Many of the advanced students can fake their way through changes, because they have enough hand/eye coordination to adjust their movements according to what they "see" themselves doing. When I took away the visual aspect, they were forced to rely on different types of sensory input. It was easy for me to see who "had it" and who needed more work, because the results were either genuine full-body expressions or they looked exactly the same as before we made the change. Some actually chose to video themselves playing blindfolded in a kind of "before and after" self-assessment. The nice thing about learning music is you don't have to rely entirely on visual input in order to learn an activity with at least a mild physical component. Sometimes to learn "feel," you have to take away the eyes and rely on the imagination.

Thanks for all the comments.

Based on what I have read I would judge that work (golf related or not) with your eyes closed is the best path (if there is a useful path toward this goal).

FWIW, in a COMPLETELY different context several years ago I did some work on hitting balls with my eyes closed. At that time I had observed that 'my practice swing' appeared to be technically better than the swing that I used to hit the ball. I was trying to find a way to actually hit a ball with 'my practice swing' - never got there, for whatever reason.

But learning the hit balls with my eyes closed was not tough. It didn't lead me to the goal that I was pursuing at the time, but maybe it would somehow could be helpful in the more general case of improving your proprioceptive skills.

And I completely understand Thrillhouse' experience with 'what is' vs. what is sensed. For me as well video is the only answer, but I find it EXTREMELY inefficient (can't really tell what happened until you go home.).

dave

[quote name='againstthegrain' timestamp='1326665406' post='4089627']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1326662512' post='4089373']
While it is not what I would think would address teh 'problem that I am sensing', who knows.

Is there a link or something other than the image posted? Or maybe if I look into Paul's book it will pop ut at me.

dave



[/quote]

"Feel is not reel." The Gallwey book will help w awareness. How to become aware and how to implement what you learn in your swing.

I don't work on propreceptivity specifically although adding instability into any activity will improve it, but on a subconscious level. For example standing on one leg - eyes closed, single leg squats, 3 point planks, etc are helpful in a general sense, but don't directly go to curing a swing flaw.

The drill I posted above directly attacks a lack of stability in the putting stroke. I don't know if focusing on a general increase in proprioceptivity is the most direct way to improve the golf swing. To bring it back to music would you work on your hearing to provide better feedback if you're goal was to learn a few new chords on the guitar?
[/quote]

Putting and chipping/pitching (in my experience) tend to follow a more 'conventional' path to improvement where 'what you feel is what actually happened'. Similarly, learning chords/runs on guitar (again in my experience) was not limited by any obvious lack of proprioceptive skiils.

But generic 'better proprioceptive skills -> better golf skills' is an iffy proposition, I admit.



dave

Dave

Get one of the tablets and V1 software app. It is much better than any camera I have used. The only problem is the glare on the screen but that is a minor inconvenience considering the ease of use and the large screen.

hackin

First off, let me preface this post by saying that I am physical therapist and that I deal with proprioception on a day to day basis.

There isn't going to be an easy way to gain this. If you are looking for more hand and arm control, either video taping yourself, or having a professional analyze your swing will likely be the best bet. If you are looking to improve your golf swing control, your brain needs repetitive practice in the proper form in order modify your "faulty" motor pattern and mold it into a more effective one.

Balance exercises, foam rolls, and something even like yoga will help develop bodily control.

Research has even shown that mentally rehearsing something in your head will actually improve performance over time.

I also don't understand how you have come to the conclusion that you have "horrible" proprioception? I don't know, to me a proper golf swing is a skill that needs to be developed. If everyone has this innate superb proprioception, we'd all be on the PGA Tour or the NFL, NBA etc.

I am a terrible bowler for example, but I don't think it has anything to do with proprioception.

[quote name='ajrDPT' timestamp='1326940443' post='4113677']
First off, let me preface this post by saying that I am physical therapist and that I deal with proprioception on a day to day basis.

There isn't going to be an easy way to gain this. If you are looking for more hand and arm control, either video taping yourself, or having a professional analyze your swing will likely be the best bet. If you are looking to improve your golf swing control, your brain needs repetitive practice in the proper form in order modify your "faulty" motor pattern and mold it into a more effective one.

Balance exercises, foam rolls, and something even like yoga will help develop bodily control.

Research has even shown that mentally rehearsing something in your head will actually improve performance over time.

I also don't understand how you have come to the conclusion that you have "horrible" proprioception? I don't know, to me a proper golf swing is a skill that needs to be developed. If everyone has this innate superb proprioception, we'd all be on the PGA Tour or the NFL, NBA etc.

I am a terrible bowler for example, but I don't think it has anything to do with proprioception.
[/quote]

Thanks for your comments.

My 'personal proprioception' observation is based on comparisons with how well other golfers seem to be able to 'sense what they are doing' vs. me. It is a pretty crude judgment, BTW, It has nothing to do with the state of my game, but relates to how difficult it is for me to change things. Of course imperfect proprioception is the norm.

My sense of things is that whatever development is appropriate here should be associated directly with whatever golf skill is worth working on.

dave

What’s the lastest on this 2019 people’s? I went fishing in the deep. :)

> @BB28403 said:

> What’s the lastest on this 2019 people’s? I went fishing in the deep. :)

Since I started this thread over 7 years ago ....

Is there a question or a comment here relevant to this thread? I think I understand your 2nd sentence. I cannot parse the first one.

dave

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > What’s the lastest on this 2019 people’s? I went fishing in the deep. :)

> Since I started this thread over 7 years ago ....

>

> Is there a question or a comment here relevant to this thread? I think I understand your 2nd sentence. I cannot parse the first one.

>

> dave

>

>

Hey Dave!

Just was enjoying your thread and questioning my own Proprioception senses. I was curious to know if anyone had more knowledge of these skills.

And that was slang I was using. Sometimes this is used in communication with people of like affinity.

And I didn’t realize thread ownership was a thing, apologies if I am stepping on your toes after 7 years.

(Just an ironic footnote : we get yelled at here if we make a new thread, because there are older threads in existence! Please do not complain when we dig up old threads as per your suggestions . I am not naming anyone ... )

BB, no real ownership and no offense taken. I just feel like a thread starter has a certain responsibility WRT that given thread.

My ability to "accurately know what I am doing" (at least WRT a golf swing) still seems weak to me. But I no longer take the game seriously. This is kind of a statement of where things stand. https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1770458/trying-to-enjoy-casual-golf#latest

dave

ps. FWIW, my efforts now get focused on either cycling or classical guitar. Both of these activities 'reliably yield to effort' more than does golf. Interestingly both degrade WRT neglect (as in no practice) at a far greater rate than does golf.

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> BB, no real ownership and no offense taken. I just feel like a thread starter has a certain responsibility WRT that given thread.

>

> My ability to "accurately know what I am doing" (at least WRT a golf swing) still seems weak to me. But I no longer take the game seriously. This is kind of a statement of where things stand. https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1770458/trying-to-enjoy-casual-golf#latest

>

> dave

>

> ps. FWIW, my efforts now get focused on either cycling or classical guitar. Both of these activities 'reliably yield to effort' more than does golf. Interestingly both degrade WRT neglect (as in no practice) at a far greater rate than does golf.

>

>

Sorry that you feel obligated. I usually just start a thread and let it go where it goes.

I was just noticing last night that in the heat of the swing if I put my shoulder under my chin, it feels as if I am completely turned in the backswing . However, looking in the mirror, I am almost there but not quite.

And this computer and phone neck which limits cervical mobility is getting annoying.

Also, I feel at the top I am parallel to target , when in fact I am open to target. Which delivers the club face in a not ideal fashion.

And thanks Dave I am doing a good amount of research on a lot of different aspects of the game. From fitness, nutrition , mental and range sessions . I just love to soak it all up and pull out what we can all use.

I recommend Fred Shoemaker’s book, Extraordinary Golf. In it he has exercises to increase Awareness (proprioceptive skills) and to eliminate “blind spots”—areas where people are not aware of what they are doing. A basic premises of his is that you first have to feel what you are doing so the when you make a change you can feel the difference and distinguish the two.

First keep in mind that I started this thread over seven years ago. I do own Fred's book and (as my aging memory vaguely recalls) I found the first half to be very intriguing. This was the part that went over Fred's experiences with various golfers (IIRC). I found the second half to be kind of disappointing - it was just too metaphysical to me.

The 'throwing the club' exercise seemed possibly promising but was kind of hard to work on unless you have an area available only to you. But all that was then - things between me and golf are very different now.

dave

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> First keep in mind that I started this thread over seven years ago. I do own Fred's book and (as my aging memory vaguely recalls) I found the first half to be very intriguing. This was the part that went over Fred's experiences with various golfers (IIRC). I found the second half to be kind of disappointing - it was just too metaphysical to me.

>

> The 'throwing the club' exercise seemed possibly promising but was kind of hard to work on unless you have an area available only to you. But all that was then - things between me and golf are very different now.

>

> dave

Something just dragged itself out of deep memory storage here. I didn't spend much time on the 'club throwing technique' because it occurred to me that I could make the motions/positions that I wanted happen pretty much on command. I just couldn't do it when actually hitting a golf ball (plastic or real golf ball). And yes, my 'practice swing' probably hit the ball about 30 degrees to the right. But we will never know for sure .

dave